@Heliotrope
I didnt claim there was anything wrong with being predictable, Im claiming you cant know or speak for "all" of the forums readership.
Getting a real job at a real school without experience
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Heliotrope
- Posts: 776
- Joined: Sun May 13, 2018 1:48 am
Re: Reply
> I didnt claim there was anything wrong with being predictable
Good, it's an asset in some circumstances.
Good, it's an asset in some circumstances.
Re: Getting a real job at a real school without experience
Sorry for the late reply everyone. I got busy with traveling and moving abroad and all, you know how it goes. Plus I didn't wanna get in the way of your lively discussion haha.
Anyway, I have two more questions that aren't super relevant to the OP, but kinda relevant. Plus they don't seem interesting enough to warrant their own threads, so I'll just post them here.
A) are MA provisional licenses stigmatized by hiring managers? Do recruiters actively favor someone with a "real," say, D.C. license? Or it doesn't really matter, they only care that you check the credential box.
B) While I'm still living in the US, should I get my bachelor's degree notarized just in case I get hired by a Chinese school? Or should I wait until after I get hired, because there's a chance I might not need it, even though that risks having to do it from abroad? I live in Louisiana but my University is in Iowa, I'm not sure if that creates a huge hassle or not. Either way, should I notarize my soon-to-come MA licenses as well? I'm not even sure if I need a notarization or an Apostille. To be honest, maybe this question did deserve its own thread, it's all so complicated.
Anyway, I have two more questions that aren't super relevant to the OP, but kinda relevant. Plus they don't seem interesting enough to warrant their own threads, so I'll just post them here.
A) are MA provisional licenses stigmatized by hiring managers? Do recruiters actively favor someone with a "real," say, D.C. license? Or it doesn't really matter, they only care that you check the credential box.
B) While I'm still living in the US, should I get my bachelor's degree notarized just in case I get hired by a Chinese school? Or should I wait until after I get hired, because there's a chance I might not need it, even though that risks having to do it from abroad? I live in Louisiana but my University is in Iowa, I'm not sure if that creates a huge hassle or not. Either way, should I notarize my soon-to-come MA licenses as well? I'm not even sure if I need a notarization or an Apostille. To be honest, maybe this question did deserve its own thread, it's all so complicated.
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Thames Pirate
- Posts: 1088
- Joined: Fri Jul 05, 2013 8:06 am
Re: Getting a real job at a real school without experience
My advice: Get EVERYTHING notarised or get an apostille. Teaching and marriage licenses, background checks, any paper you could ever think you want. It isn't THAT hard to do in the US, and it is so difficult and far more expensive to do from abroad. Prepaid postage alone will cost you lots more.
Reply
@Malarazz
In reply to your inquiry:
1) Not really, there is an observable (though small) prejudice between traditional/academic prepared/trained ITs and other routes (skill and assessment based). What recruiters and leadership care about is what can you do, and what do you know. The MA provisional credential while it makes you 'legal' was obtained vie an assessment route. Taking a test doesnt speak very much to what your capabilities are in a classroom. Regardless though, it does make you legal and many recruiters and leadership dont care beyond that.
2) It depends what you mean by notarized? On one end of the spectrum you can take your original degree make X copies of it on nice paper and on the back of each of them include either the appropriate statement that the copy is a true and accurate copy of the original (an attestation, some states do not allow a notary to create or attest to certified copies, Louisiana is one of those states) or that you yourself swear by oath that the copies are true and accurate copies (Louisiana allows this). Thats 'notarized' too, should take you an hour, and if your bank waves notary fees wont cost you anything.
Another option is that you contact your Uni in Iowa (which does permit attestation of copies) have them print off some copies for you and then have the Uni register make a declaration on the back that the copies are true and accurate original documents as custodian of record, and have the statement of the register notarized (Iowa permits this). You could then make copies of these as you need. Youre Uni may charge you a fee for this servie and may take a week or two to process. That would be notarized as well.
You could then send any of the notarized degrees you want to the appropriate state SOS (Secretary of State) to have either an apostile or authentication completed. Louisiana charges USD$20 and Iowa USD$5 per document. You could then send the document too the US SOS for another apostile or authentication (cost is USD$8/document).
China is not a signor to the Hague convention and so does not recognize apostiles. The various Chinese consulates/embassies conduct their own authentication of documents. For Louisiana, you would be applying through the Houston consulate, you only need the state SOS level authentication. Depending on the state an Apostile may state its valid only for a specific country (though generally other countries will accept an apostile issued for another country) and again some countries require authentication and not apostiles.
MA has a public credential lookup, but you may need an authenticated credential. You can request a hard copy from the MA DOE the fee is USD$25 and you can request a certified/notarized hard copy along with your request if you do it by mail. You can then have the MA SOS authenticate it.
I would get one set of critical documents authenticated and travel with those as opposed to the originals and carry a few notarized copies of those documents as well. Apostiles and authentications can be expensive, but notarized copies from an authenticated original arent very time consuming or expensive to have done locally.
In reply to your inquiry:
1) Not really, there is an observable (though small) prejudice between traditional/academic prepared/trained ITs and other routes (skill and assessment based). What recruiters and leadership care about is what can you do, and what do you know. The MA provisional credential while it makes you 'legal' was obtained vie an assessment route. Taking a test doesnt speak very much to what your capabilities are in a classroom. Regardless though, it does make you legal and many recruiters and leadership dont care beyond that.
2) It depends what you mean by notarized? On one end of the spectrum you can take your original degree make X copies of it on nice paper and on the back of each of them include either the appropriate statement that the copy is a true and accurate copy of the original (an attestation, some states do not allow a notary to create or attest to certified copies, Louisiana is one of those states) or that you yourself swear by oath that the copies are true and accurate copies (Louisiana allows this). Thats 'notarized' too, should take you an hour, and if your bank waves notary fees wont cost you anything.
Another option is that you contact your Uni in Iowa (which does permit attestation of copies) have them print off some copies for you and then have the Uni register make a declaration on the back that the copies are true and accurate original documents as custodian of record, and have the statement of the register notarized (Iowa permits this). You could then make copies of these as you need. Youre Uni may charge you a fee for this servie and may take a week or two to process. That would be notarized as well.
You could then send any of the notarized degrees you want to the appropriate state SOS (Secretary of State) to have either an apostile or authentication completed. Louisiana charges USD$20 and Iowa USD$5 per document. You could then send the document too the US SOS for another apostile or authentication (cost is USD$8/document).
China is not a signor to the Hague convention and so does not recognize apostiles. The various Chinese consulates/embassies conduct their own authentication of documents. For Louisiana, you would be applying through the Houston consulate, you only need the state SOS level authentication. Depending on the state an Apostile may state its valid only for a specific country (though generally other countries will accept an apostile issued for another country) and again some countries require authentication and not apostiles.
MA has a public credential lookup, but you may need an authenticated credential. You can request a hard copy from the MA DOE the fee is USD$25 and you can request a certified/notarized hard copy along with your request if you do it by mail. You can then have the MA SOS authenticate it.
I would get one set of critical documents authenticated and travel with those as opposed to the originals and carry a few notarized copies of those documents as well. Apostiles and authentications can be expensive, but notarized copies from an authenticated original arent very time consuming or expensive to have done locally.
Re: Getting a real job at a real school without experience
Thank you so much! This comment was insanely helpful. I'll get started on all that.
God, such an annoying process. Which is made worse by the fact that I don't know where exactly I'll end up.
God, such an annoying process. Which is made worse by the fact that I don't know where exactly I'll end up.
Reply
@Malarazz
I would strongly advise the Iowa Uni route. Contact your university by email, include a PDF scan of your degree, tell them what you need and that you would like several copies (4-6). Hopefully they dont charge you anything, including to mail them. Then take one of them when you receive them and have it apostiled by the Iowa SOS. Do the same with the MA Provisional credential, except request only one certified copy (they are pricey), when you get it make copies of it, and then have the original apostiled by the MA SOS. The plan here is that the apostiled copy of the degree and credential are going to serve as the original, and the Uni notarized ones of your degree and your MA Credential notarized copies are for when you really need them (such as for immigration or a visa or a work permit), just make sure the employer really needs them, and you make photo copies of the Uni notarized versions as needed. Direct anyone who asks after seeing the apostiled MA credential that there is a MA DOE public lookup and verification. Generally ISs dont need apostiled or original notarized versions for their records, they need to see an original and make a copy themselves. Its immigration and maybe labor/MOE that need notarized versions.
All together Apostile fees should cost you USD$11, the MA DOE hardcopy credential USD$25, and assorted postage.
You will want to also scan the apostiled and attested copies and upload them to a cloud account and onto a USB flashdrive.
I would strongly advise the Iowa Uni route. Contact your university by email, include a PDF scan of your degree, tell them what you need and that you would like several copies (4-6). Hopefully they dont charge you anything, including to mail them. Then take one of them when you receive them and have it apostiled by the Iowa SOS. Do the same with the MA Provisional credential, except request only one certified copy (they are pricey), when you get it make copies of it, and then have the original apostiled by the MA SOS. The plan here is that the apostiled copy of the degree and credential are going to serve as the original, and the Uni notarized ones of your degree and your MA Credential notarized copies are for when you really need them (such as for immigration or a visa or a work permit), just make sure the employer really needs them, and you make photo copies of the Uni notarized versions as needed. Direct anyone who asks after seeing the apostiled MA credential that there is a MA DOE public lookup and verification. Generally ISs dont need apostiled or original notarized versions for their records, they need to see an original and make a copy themselves. Its immigration and maybe labor/MOE that need notarized versions.
All together Apostile fees should cost you USD$11, the MA DOE hardcopy credential USD$25, and assorted postage.
You will want to also scan the apostiled and attested copies and upload them to a cloud account and onto a USB flashdrive.
Re: Getting a real job at a real school without experience
Really, why do you advise the Iowa route? The Louisiana notary> IA/LA secretary seems easier to me. But if there's another benefit of the Iowa route that I'm not thinking of, please let me know. That being said, I tried to go to Chase today and they said they don't offer free notary services in Louisiana, so you might be right, it might be prohibitively expensive to notarize so many copies down here. I'll have to look into that next week.
The problem is that I'm a Math+Econ double major, and when I graduated I opted for the "double degree" option as opposed to the "single degree double major" option. This was never a big deal up until now.
I'm thinking I use Math as the main one, apostille one copy and authenticate (for China or other non-apostille countries) another copy, and then notarize 3 extra copies or so. Then for my Econ degree, I either do nothing, or just notarize a couple copies but don't apostille any.
By the way, I'm gonna have a Math+Business (they don't an Econ MTEL) double credential from MA also - assuming I pass both tests. Do you know how that works, do I get a single card listing both subjects, or two cards, one for each (i.e. double the apostille fees)?
Also while I'm at it, I saw on the website my score report date is supposed to be Aug 16. Given that, any clue approximately when I can expect to have the MA credential in hand, apostilled, and ready to fly with me to Asia?
The problem is that I'm a Math+Econ double major, and when I graduated I opted for the "double degree" option as opposed to the "single degree double major" option. This was never a big deal up until now.
I'm thinking I use Math as the main one, apostille one copy and authenticate (for China or other non-apostille countries) another copy, and then notarize 3 extra copies or so. Then for my Econ degree, I either do nothing, or just notarize a couple copies but don't apostille any.
By the way, I'm gonna have a Math+Business (they don't an Econ MTEL) double credential from MA also - assuming I pass both tests. Do you know how that works, do I get a single card listing both subjects, or two cards, one for each (i.e. double the apostille fees)?
Also while I'm at it, I saw on the website my score report date is supposed to be Aug 16. Given that, any clue approximately when I can expect to have the MA credential in hand, apostilled, and ready to fly with me to Asia?
Reply
@Malarazz
An Iowa degree with a Louisiana apostile on it, at some point someone is going to say you have to have an Iowa apostile, because it just look sketchy, so why do it when the Iowa rout is cheaper and Louisiana notary law doesnt permit notaries to make attested/certified copies. Even if you had a degree from a Uni in Louisiana the preferred option would be to have the Uni register certify your degree. The Louisiana process even costs more.
Get a certified and notarized copy of the math and the economics degree (get a few of each actually, assuming your Uni register doesnt make an issue out of it) make copies of those and then send the original of both the economics and the maths degree for an apostile (thats two apostiles) and work from those as originals, letting ISs sight them as needed and making copies of your notarized originals as you need them.
Like many US states economics is typically composited in a social studies category, in MA a business credential doesnt permit your assignment to teach economics, in MA that role would fall under either a History 5-12 or Social Science 5-12 credential.
You dont really get a certificate, what you get is an option to print your own unofficial certificate. The hard copy certificate they mail to you (the one you pay for) is very uninspiring. Both of them just list the teaching fields one line after another, you dont get a separate certificate for each credential.
End of September if all the planets and stars are aligned. Once your scores are available it takes about 2 weeks for your application to be approved and your digital certificate of your credential to be available on ELAR. Then you have to send in the hard copy form (you cant use the ELAR application because theres no place to request a notarization/certified copy) you send it, someone opens the mail, they process it, they go find someone to notarize it, they mail it back to you, thats a couple weeks. Then you send that to the MA SOS, that takes a week, and then if you do the US SOS thats 2 weeks.
An Iowa degree with a Louisiana apostile on it, at some point someone is going to say you have to have an Iowa apostile, because it just look sketchy, so why do it when the Iowa rout is cheaper and Louisiana notary law doesnt permit notaries to make attested/certified copies. Even if you had a degree from a Uni in Louisiana the preferred option would be to have the Uni register certify your degree. The Louisiana process even costs more.
Get a certified and notarized copy of the math and the economics degree (get a few of each actually, assuming your Uni register doesnt make an issue out of it) make copies of those and then send the original of both the economics and the maths degree for an apostile (thats two apostiles) and work from those as originals, letting ISs sight them as needed and making copies of your notarized originals as you need them.
Like many US states economics is typically composited in a social studies category, in MA a business credential doesnt permit your assignment to teach economics, in MA that role would fall under either a History 5-12 or Social Science 5-12 credential.
You dont really get a certificate, what you get is an option to print your own unofficial certificate. The hard copy certificate they mail to you (the one you pay for) is very uninspiring. Both of them just list the teaching fields one line after another, you dont get a separate certificate for each credential.
End of September if all the planets and stars are aligned. Once your scores are available it takes about 2 weeks for your application to be approved and your digital certificate of your credential to be available on ELAR. Then you have to send in the hard copy form (you cant use the ELAR application because theres no place to request a notarization/certified copy) you send it, someone opens the mail, they process it, they go find someone to notarize it, they mail it back to you, thats a couple weeks. Then you send that to the MA SOS, that takes a week, and then if you do the US SOS thats 2 weeks.
Re: Getting a real job at a real school without experience
Okay, you convinced me, I'll call my Uni tomorrow. Thanks again!
What about ISs? Does Econ fall under the Business license umbrella for them? What would they think when they see that extra Business credential? I'm not sure about the History/SS MTELs, but at least the Business test is like 15% Econ questions.
End of September is pretty awkward. I'm gonna be in Asia by then. But it's fine, I'm sure I can just send it off to the MA SoS and have my mom send it to me after I leave. The extra US SoS apostille is just a bonus, right, not really necessary? If I just get a math+econ apostille from MA and a math+econ non-apostille authentication (in case I want to go to China or some other non-apostille country), that should be enough, right?
What about ISs? Does Econ fall under the Business license umbrella for them? What would they think when they see that extra Business credential? I'm not sure about the History/SS MTELs, but at least the Business test is like 15% Econ questions.
End of September is pretty awkward. I'm gonna be in Asia by then. But it's fine, I'm sure I can just send it off to the MA SoS and have my mom send it to me after I leave. The extra US SoS apostille is just a bonus, right, not really necessary? If I just get a math+econ apostille from MA and a math+econ non-apostille authentication (in case I want to go to China or some other non-apostille country), that should be enough, right?
Reply
@Malarazz
Economics and business are typically paired subjects in IE. Econ is a little more maths focused and business more concept driven, a very broad general assumption is an IT that can teach economics can teach business, though the reverse is less true. AP doesnt have a SLL course in business, both IB and A* do (all three have economics)
In IE nothings a problem until its a problem, and then its a real problem. You could go your whole career and never have an issue teaching econ with an econ degree and a MA business credential, and I would absolutely put coin on that outcome. The corollary to that is anything that can happen either has happened or will happen, nothing surprises me in IE anymore. You could wake up one day with an email from your leadership 2 weeks into the new AY and your being dismissed because your AP/VP/DP of curriculum discovered you dont have a credential to actually teach economics, and this is an accreditation year, and its not possible to move the schedule and assignments around, theyre going to have to hire someone else, and since your not qualified youre contract is voided, and they arent going to give you anything. Could happen, has happened, will happen again.
My apologies I feel i didnt explain well. The US SOS will not add an apostile to an apostile, there really is no such thing as a hierarchy of apostiles, you either have one or you dont, if you have one you dont need additional ones, and the US SOS will not add an apostile to a state document apostile. What they will do is add an additional US SOS authentication to a state authentication, which may or not be required based on the countries immigration requirements and can even vary within the country. A US authentication may or not be required depends on the country and where your applying for a visa for that country.
What I would do is get the apostile for the MA credential (it will be one document) and an apostile for the economics degree and the maths degree (thats two documents, total of three), as well as the notarized/certified copies. Id skip the authentication, because the authentication requirements change depending on the country and where your applying for the visa, and how your applying for the visa. My experience is that when youve got an apostiled copy and the IS is managing the visa application, they will make a copy of the notarized document, photocopy the cover of the apostile copy and just staple them all together with your visa/work permit application. Although the USD$15 (you can send the authentication request along with the apostile request, saving time and postage) for the extra authentication is an almost trivial expense considering the peace of mind it will likely provide you.
Economics and business are typically paired subjects in IE. Econ is a little more maths focused and business more concept driven, a very broad general assumption is an IT that can teach economics can teach business, though the reverse is less true. AP doesnt have a SLL course in business, both IB and A* do (all three have economics)
In IE nothings a problem until its a problem, and then its a real problem. You could go your whole career and never have an issue teaching econ with an econ degree and a MA business credential, and I would absolutely put coin on that outcome. The corollary to that is anything that can happen either has happened or will happen, nothing surprises me in IE anymore. You could wake up one day with an email from your leadership 2 weeks into the new AY and your being dismissed because your AP/VP/DP of curriculum discovered you dont have a credential to actually teach economics, and this is an accreditation year, and its not possible to move the schedule and assignments around, theyre going to have to hire someone else, and since your not qualified youre contract is voided, and they arent going to give you anything. Could happen, has happened, will happen again.
My apologies I feel i didnt explain well. The US SOS will not add an apostile to an apostile, there really is no such thing as a hierarchy of apostiles, you either have one or you dont, if you have one you dont need additional ones, and the US SOS will not add an apostile to a state document apostile. What they will do is add an additional US SOS authentication to a state authentication, which may or not be required based on the countries immigration requirements and can even vary within the country. A US authentication may or not be required depends on the country and where your applying for a visa for that country.
What I would do is get the apostile for the MA credential (it will be one document) and an apostile for the economics degree and the maths degree (thats two documents, total of three), as well as the notarized/certified copies. Id skip the authentication, because the authentication requirements change depending on the country and where your applying for the visa, and how your applying for the visa. My experience is that when youve got an apostiled copy and the IS is managing the visa application, they will make a copy of the notarized document, photocopy the cover of the apostile copy and just staple them all together with your visa/work permit application. Although the USD$15 (you can send the authentication request along with the apostile request, saving time and postage) for the extra authentication is an almost trivial expense considering the peace of mind it will likely provide you.
Re: Getting a real job at a real school without experience
Hey there, been a while.
So I'm finally getting around to certifying my documents. I have the 5 notarized copies of each diploma, and the FBI background check. Should be getting the MA MTEL results back on Friday.
I called the Iowa Secretary of State office about apostilling/authenticating my diplomas, and to my surprise the lady said you *need* to have the name of the country you're going to. You can't just do a general apostille/authentication like I was hoping for.
https://sos.iowa. gov/business/pdf/APCERT.pdf
What do you think I should do while I'm still in the US? Getting a few copies for countries that I *might* end up working in, like China, Malaysia, Vietnam, and the Philippines? Or just skip the apostille process for now, take my 5 notarized copies abroad with me (I'm leaving for Asia around Sept 10 regardless), and then have the apostille done internationally after I get a job offer and know which country I'll be working for?
I haven't called the US Dept of State Office of Authentications yet about apostilling the FBI background check, but I'm assuming I would run into the same problem.
So I'm finally getting around to certifying my documents. I have the 5 notarized copies of each diploma, and the FBI background check. Should be getting the MA MTEL results back on Friday.
I called the Iowa Secretary of State office about apostilling/authenticating my diplomas, and to my surprise the lady said you *need* to have the name of the country you're going to. You can't just do a general apostille/authentication like I was hoping for.
https://sos.iowa. gov/business/pdf/APCERT.pdf
What do you think I should do while I'm still in the US? Getting a few copies for countries that I *might* end up working in, like China, Malaysia, Vietnam, and the Philippines? Or just skip the apostille process for now, take my 5 notarized copies abroad with me (I'm leaving for Asia around Sept 10 regardless), and then have the apostille done internationally after I get a job offer and know which country I'll be working for?
I haven't called the US Dept of State Office of Authentications yet about apostilling the FBI background check, but I'm assuming I would run into the same problem.
Reply
@Malarazz
What the Iowa SOS said was technically true but practically it isnt. Its true that when you fill out the application for the apostille, item one asks you what country its prepared for because this determines for the SOS office whether you get an apostille or a verification/certification. Where its not true is that the actual apostille they send you doesnt say "for use only in X country", you can see a sample here:
http://www.internationalapostille.com/w ... stille.jpg
As long as you choose a country (Italy, France, etc.) thats part of the Hague Convention and is eligible for a apostille, you will get an otherwise generic/general apostille. I would proceed as before, get one to use as a functional original, and keep the others.
What the Iowa SOS said was technically true but practically it isnt. Its true that when you fill out the application for the apostille, item one asks you what country its prepared for because this determines for the SOS office whether you get an apostille or a verification/certification. Where its not true is that the actual apostille they send you doesnt say "for use only in X country", you can see a sample here:
http://www.internationalapostille.com/w ... stille.jpg
As long as you choose a country (Italy, France, etc.) thats part of the Hague Convention and is eligible for a apostille, you will get an otherwise generic/general apostille. I would proceed as before, get one to use as a functional original, and keep the others.
Re: Getting a real job at a real school without experience
Thanks for that. I mailed in my diplomas to get them apostilled for a random country, and mailed my background check as well to the US State Dept. I got another dumb question though. You should start charging by the hour, would make a killing LOL.
I just called the MA licensing department like you suggested above, the lady actually spoke with her manager because she wasn't sure, but the manager confirmed they do NOT notarize teaching certifications at all. She said that they do have the official stamp of the MA DoE I guess, but is that good enough in place of a notarization? Can I mail the license straight to the MA SoS for an apostille? Or do I have to mail it to an MA notary first, wait to receive it back in the mail, and *then* send it to the MA SoS? Or maybe I can go in-person to an LA notary and have him do it?
Also, she said the price is $25 *per copy*, which is frankly absurd. Do you think one apostilled copy is good enough, if I don't know in what country I'll end up teaching? Maybe one apostilled copy and another notarized non-apostilled copy, in case I end up in a non-Hague country such as China or Vietnam, that I can then use to get authenticated.
I just called the MA licensing department like you suggested above, the lady actually spoke with her manager because she wasn't sure, but the manager confirmed they do NOT notarize teaching certifications at all. She said that they do have the official stamp of the MA DoE I guess, but is that good enough in place of a notarization? Can I mail the license straight to the MA SoS for an apostille? Or do I have to mail it to an MA notary first, wait to receive it back in the mail, and *then* send it to the MA SoS? Or maybe I can go in-person to an LA notary and have him do it?
Also, she said the price is $25 *per copy*, which is frankly absurd. Do you think one apostilled copy is good enough, if I don't know in what country I'll end up teaching? Maybe one apostilled copy and another notarized non-apostilled copy, in case I end up in a non-Hague country such as China or Vietnam, that I can then use to get authenticated.
Re: Getting a real job at a real school without experience
I had the same thing when I apostilled my teaching certificate. Since the document is issued by the state there is no need for a notarization. Essentially the notary tells the state that the document is authentic and the state already knows documents they produce are authentic. So yes, you can send it in directly for apostilling without a notarization (at least I could for my state — it wasn’t. MA).