@Illiane_Blues
I consider my position sufficiently strong to withstand debate on the merits.
What do you mean "Let's let others members decide for themselves", EVERY member gets to decide for themselves, this forum is a resource and you neither have authority to table any discussion nor does any contributor need your permission to post nor to continue posting.
ISS, Search or both? Bangkok 2020
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Illiane_Blues
Re: ISS, Search or both? Bangkok 2020
Duh, of course every member gets to decide for themselves, and of course anyone can continue commenting – that would be great actually since the last 22 responses were either you, me or Heliotrope.
I just see no value in debating this any further given your previous response, and therefore like Heliotrope, I'm stepping back from this discussion so we don't distract other members any longer with back and forths that serve no real purpose anymore. You can still ping, but I won't pong, since my point is sufficiently made and I don't feel the urge to be the last one replying just for the hell of it.
I just see no value in debating this any further given your previous response, and therefore like Heliotrope, I'm stepping back from this discussion so we don't distract other members any longer with back and forths that serve no real purpose anymore. You can still ping, but I won't pong, since my point is sufficiently made and I don't feel the urge to be the last one replying just for the hell of it.
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Lastname_Z
- Posts: 120
- Joined: Mon May 20, 2013 12:17 pm
Re: ISS, Search or both? Bangkok 2020
I'll just add my two cents on the issue. I think that Search definitely has a higher ceiling when it comes to school tiers, but it also has a lower floor. With ISS-Schrole I've got a bit more of a guarantee that I won't end up at a school that's a mess. I'm pretty new in my career (5 years) so I don't mind going from where I am now to a school that's bottom to upper 2nd tier.
If there are any top-tier schools with positions open in my subject I can often message those schools' HR departments directly anyway.
If there are any top-tier schools with positions open in my subject I can often message those schools' HR departments directly anyway.
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Illiane_Blues
Re: ISS, Search or both? Bangkok 2020
@Lastname_Z wrote:
Always do your research. all fairs have crap schools as both 2019 fair lists prove, and sometimes a leadership change can change a school with a good reputation almost overnight. I've lived through two: one for the better and one for the worse. Plus the agency will want to please the schools more than the candidates because schools pay a lot more, so they won't outright advise against a school they represent. Sometimes they hint at it in my experience
Does anyone know how much schools pay for Search's or ISS's services?
For Search, with 5 years of experience looking for a nice tier 2 school, I'd recommend the London January fair rather than the Bangkok one. But like you, I also just email schools directly, regardless of tier.
Not sure if schools prefer to be contacted through Search so they can read the confidential references, or direct via email so they don't have to pay Search a fee for the placement? Quite like to know that, any opinions?
Always do your research. all fairs have crap schools as both 2019 fair lists prove, and sometimes a leadership change can change a school with a good reputation almost overnight. I've lived through two: one for the better and one for the worse. Plus the agency will want to please the schools more than the candidates because schools pay a lot more, so they won't outright advise against a school they represent. Sometimes they hint at it in my experience
Does anyone know how much schools pay for Search's or ISS's services?
For Search, with 5 years of experience looking for a nice tier 2 school, I'd recommend the London January fair rather than the Bangkok one. But like you, I also just email schools directly, regardless of tier.
Not sure if schools prefer to be contacted through Search so they can read the confidential references, or direct via email so they don't have to pay Search a fee for the placement? Quite like to know that, any opinions?
Discussion
Its not just poo ISs, its the poo ISs with SA smell worse, and are more likely to be a train wreck. ITs are commodities, they pay relatively close to nothing, little more than overhead. SA invoicing is a fixed rate that has fluctuated between USD$1000 and USD$2500 (with the higher amount being for leadership), its typically around USD$1500 regardless of the IS. SA doesnt care if you take an appointment with a bottom tier IS in the ME or a top tier IS in the EU, they would rather you take the more sure thing early, than possibly not take a position at all, USD$1500 is USD$1500. ISS uses a different percentage structure. SA also requires ISs to either pay USD$500 if they dont attend a fair. There are also discounts typically offered to high tier ISs that give the agency prestige more than coin.
Technically if a candidate is repped by SA and the IS is repped by SA it doesnt matter how they connect or go about filling a vacancy, its an invoiced placement as far as SA is concerned. However in practice lower tier ISs would prefer not paying the placement fee, and upper tier ISs would rather have a more informative profile, such that the fee is inconsequential to them (higher tier ISs also have lower recruiting fewer vacancies and thus lower costs, compared to lower tier ISs which typically have many more vacancies, and thus higher total placement costs).
The rule is you go to the most competitive fair you can get an invite too. There are some contributors who advise you go to the fair with the most jobs for you, but because of timing issues, its difficult to know what that is.
@ Illiane_Blues
Your point was you were wrong.
Technically if a candidate is repped by SA and the IS is repped by SA it doesnt matter how they connect or go about filling a vacancy, its an invoiced placement as far as SA is concerned. However in practice lower tier ISs would prefer not paying the placement fee, and upper tier ISs would rather have a more informative profile, such that the fee is inconsequential to them (higher tier ISs also have lower recruiting fewer vacancies and thus lower costs, compared to lower tier ISs which typically have many more vacancies, and thus higher total placement costs).
The rule is you go to the most competitive fair you can get an invite too. There are some contributors who advise you go to the fair with the most jobs for you, but because of timing issues, its difficult to know what that is.
@ Illiane_Blues
Your point was you were wrong.
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Illiane_Blues
Re: Discussion
For me the number of good schools counts, not the number of bad schools, as I'm not interested in those.
The poo on both sides is easy to avoid as it smells. A bit of research will go a long way so not worried about train wrecks
US$ 1500 per hire? Not bad for SA but not too terrible for most schools either.
I wonder if their list of high tier schools that get a discount has ever leaked
My point was that I think I am right. Your point is that you think are right. We both both gave arguments to support our claims. Others can discern for themselves what they think is valuable information for them to use
The poo on both sides is easy to avoid as it smells. A bit of research will go a long way so not worried about train wrecks
US$ 1500 per hire? Not bad for SA but not too terrible for most schools either.
I wonder if their list of high tier schools that get a discount has ever leaked
My point was that I think I am right. Your point is that you think are right. We both both gave arguments to support our claims. Others can discern for themselves what they think is valuable information for them to use
Re: ISS, Search or both? Bangkok 2020
"Its not just poo ISs, its the poo ISs with SA smell worse, and are more likely to be a train wreck."
Ah Dave, only data matters eh? So where's the data to support this? Fact is, there isn't any. So what you're really saying is only your opinion matters. Now I do accept that you have an abundance of short-term experience in a variety of Tier 3 schools, and there may people out there who would be impressed by that, but sadly I'm not one of them.
As it happens, neither ISS nor SEARCH have any kind of filter when it comes to allowing schools to attend their fairs. If they have the money to pay, and they apply early enough, they'll get in. Only if they prove to be disasters - as in significant numbers of candidates complain about pay and conditions of service - will they be barred.
Oh and this is nonsense, too: "There are also discounts typically offered to high tier ISs that give the agency prestige more than coin." I really don't know where you get this stuff from.
Ah Dave, only data matters eh? So where's the data to support this? Fact is, there isn't any. So what you're really saying is only your opinion matters. Now I do accept that you have an abundance of short-term experience in a variety of Tier 3 schools, and there may people out there who would be impressed by that, but sadly I'm not one of them.
As it happens, neither ISS nor SEARCH have any kind of filter when it comes to allowing schools to attend their fairs. If they have the money to pay, and they apply early enough, they'll get in. Only if they prove to be disasters - as in significant numbers of candidates complain about pay and conditions of service - will they be barred.
Oh and this is nonsense, too: "There are also discounts typically offered to high tier ISs that give the agency prestige more than coin." I really don't know where you get this stuff from.
Reply
@Illiane_Blues
Good ISs count, bad ISs count, but more importantly is the ration of those ISs compared to the number of all ISs.
Thats not true, if the Poo was easily identifiable, this site and the reviews wouldnt need to exist. The Poo on the SA side is a lot worse than the poo on the ISS side. How do you think that research exists, someone got pooed on so you could find out about it.
It makes a difference when your IS has 1 or 2 vacancies to recruit for and if your IS has 30 (or more) positions to recruit for.
Its not a formal list maintained by HQ, SA is essentially a franchise, individual associates simply dont invoice for X ITs for those ISs to attend their fair.
You thought wrong.
Good ISs count, bad ISs count, but more importantly is the ration of those ISs compared to the number of all ISs.
Thats not true, if the Poo was easily identifiable, this site and the reviews wouldnt need to exist. The Poo on the SA side is a lot worse than the poo on the ISS side. How do you think that research exists, someone got pooed on so you could find out about it.
It makes a difference when your IS has 1 or 2 vacancies to recruit for and if your IS has 30 (or more) positions to recruit for.
Its not a formal list maintained by HQ, SA is essentially a franchise, individual associates simply dont invoice for X ITs for those ISs to attend their fair.
You thought wrong.
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Illiane_Blues
Re: Reply
PsyGuy wrote:
> Good ISs count, bad ISs count, but more importantly is the ration of those
> ISs compared to the number of all ISs.
For me only the number of good schools matters, as those are the schools I'm interested in.
I don't care for the ratio at all. If you do, then you should select your agency based on that. I won't.
PsyGuy wrote:
> Thats not true, if the Poo was easily identifiable, this site and the
> reviews wouldnt need to exist. The Poo on the SA side is a lot worse than
> the poo on the ISS side. How do you think that research exists, someone got
> pooed on so you could find out about it.
Exactly, you're making my point for me, this website is part of how I identify the bad schools.
The schools I'm interested in are all well-known, and are all reviewed multiple times on ISR. And nearly all of those schools I have either an ex-colleague working, or teacher friends of mine have an ex-colleague working there, so really not too hard to get a few recent experiences of teachers from those schools. So yes, fairly easy to avoid getting a job at a shitty school.
PsyGuy wrote:
> You thought wrong.
Sigh...
We have different opinions, plus what's right for one person isn't always right for the other.
And we both both gave arguments to support our claims, and motivated our preferences. Others are perfectly able to discern for themselves what they think is valuable information for them to use.
> Good ISs count, bad ISs count, but more importantly is the ration of those
> ISs compared to the number of all ISs.
For me only the number of good schools matters, as those are the schools I'm interested in.
I don't care for the ratio at all. If you do, then you should select your agency based on that. I won't.
PsyGuy wrote:
> Thats not true, if the Poo was easily identifiable, this site and the
> reviews wouldnt need to exist. The Poo on the SA side is a lot worse than
> the poo on the ISS side. How do you think that research exists, someone got
> pooed on so you could find out about it.
Exactly, you're making my point for me, this website is part of how I identify the bad schools.
The schools I'm interested in are all well-known, and are all reviewed multiple times on ISR. And nearly all of those schools I have either an ex-colleague working, or teacher friends of mine have an ex-colleague working there, so really not too hard to get a few recent experiences of teachers from those schools. So yes, fairly easy to avoid getting a job at a shitty school.
PsyGuy wrote:
> You thought wrong.
Sigh...
We have different opinions, plus what's right for one person isn't always right for the other.
And we both both gave arguments to support our claims, and motivated our preferences. Others are perfectly able to discern for themselves what they think is valuable information for them to use.
Reply
@Illiane_Blues
I dont write for you I write for our entire readership.
No your making my point, not all the poo ISs are on ISR, its a growing database, and not everyone has friends at only the ISs they would work at. Again, I write for the entirety of the readership not for @Illiane_Blues, so no not fairly easy to identify the poo ISs.
No right is right, there are no "alternative facts", nor are there alternative truths.
I dont write for you I write for our entire readership.
No your making my point, not all the poo ISs are on ISR, its a growing database, and not everyone has friends at only the ISs they would work at. Again, I write for the entirety of the readership not for @Illiane_Blues, so no not fairly easy to identify the poo ISs.
No right is right, there are no "alternative facts", nor are there alternative truths.
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Illiane_Blues
Re: Reply
@PsyGuy
But everyone does have access to ISR reviews. The fee is low enough for that.
Before I got enough experience to get info from my network, I would just contact teachers at schools. Everyone can do that, through the website or through FB. If you avoid startups in their first year no-one should have problems sniffing out terrible schools.
And why don't you reply to @Walter?
Unlike you to not engage.
But everyone does have access to ISR reviews. The fee is low enough for that.
Before I got enough experience to get info from my network, I would just contact teachers at schools. Everyone can do that, through the website or through FB. If you avoid startups in their first year no-one should have problems sniffing out terrible schools.
And why don't you reply to @Walter?
Unlike you to not engage.
Reply
@Illiane_Blues
No not everyone has access to ISR reviews its not free, and not all the poo ISs have been reviewed. FB is stupid, and not all ITs will tell you the real, story some of them are cheerleaders.
Theres nothing worthy of @Walters post to comment on. ISS and SA have "filters", ISSs is a better filter. Prestige ISs get discounts. Ive worked at 1st, 2nd, and 3rd tier ISs. I dont care if @Walter is impressed.
No not everyone has access to ISR reviews its not free, and not all the poo ISs have been reviewed. FB is stupid, and not all ITs will tell you the real, story some of them are cheerleaders.
Theres nothing worthy of @Walters post to comment on. ISS and SA have "filters", ISSs is a better filter. Prestige ISs get discounts. Ive worked at 1st, 2nd, and 3rd tier ISs. I dont care if @Walter is impressed.
Reply
@Illiane_Blues
Not even those, not all ISs, as written before, are reviewed on ISR. You also assume that these FB contacts will know and tell you the real story, which are likely to be cheerleaders since the unhappy ones have probably either already left or theyre staying quite and their not going to collaborate with some FB or email contact and tell the real story, because thats not how being quite works.
Not even those, not all ISs, as written before, are reviewed on ISR. You also assume that these FB contacts will know and tell you the real story, which are likely to be cheerleaders since the unhappy ones have probably either already left or theyre staying quite and their not going to collaborate with some FB or email contact and tell the real story, because thats not how being quite works.
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Illiane_Blues
Re: Reply
I've never had anything but replies that reflected the school very well. I know because at some of those I have taken a job, others where the feedback was basically "Stay away from this school" have since been reviewed on ISR in a similar fashion, and at some schools ex-colleagues of mine have since taken a position and were able to paint a similar picture of the school.
People are generally helpful and honest.
Not everyone who is positive about a school is a cheerleader, most of the times they're just right.
I'd like to add that in order to get a complete picture I've always gotten two or more opinions on schools I was considering. If two opinions differ a lot, it's wise to get third or a fourth. Never had that be the case though.
Your experiences or outlook might be different of course.
People are generally helpful and honest.
Not everyone who is positive about a school is a cheerleader, most of the times they're just right.
I'd like to add that in order to get a complete picture I've always gotten two or more opinions on schools I was considering. If two opinions differ a lot, it's wise to get third or a fourth. Never had that be the case though.
Your experiences or outlook might be different of course.