Hawaii is no longer useful for non US trained teachers

spanishteacher
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Joined: Mon Dec 28, 2020 12:41 pm

Hawaii is no longer useful for non US trained teachers

Post by spanishteacher »

For non US trained teachers, Hawaii used to work great. I got my license through them, and they even accepted my experience and gave me a Standard license .

But not anymore. I received a message from HTSB, and it seems they've had a change of heart on accepting non US experience. Actually, they stated they never should have accepted it, and that this is a mistake they made for several years and are now trying to fix. They told me that because they should not have accepted my experience, I should give up my standard license and apply for a provisional one, and that failure to do so would result in disciplinary action leading to them revoking my license. Even worse, if I give up my license and apply for a provisional one, I'll get 3 years, but that's it; as I cannot move it forward unless I work in the US. They also told me they are going through all licenses from non US trained teachers slowly and steadily.

In short, a non US trained teacher can no longer hope for a standard license from HI unless they actually use it to work in HI, or somehow work on another US state. International experience will not be accepted towards renewal or advancement... The immediate consequence, is that HI can be used to get a 3 year non renewable license, and nothing else.

If you are a non US trained teacher with a HI license and have not yet been contacted by HTSB, I would strongly suggest you consider moving it to another state through reciprocity or similar....
PsyGuy
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Response

Post by PsyGuy »

Sadly true.
HI relatively recently had a change in its director, who doesnt want the HTSB to be a clearing house for non-Citizen ITs. At one time they were desperate for teachers from anywhere they thought this would be an avenue of getting more DTs in HI but ultimately it did nothing for them so why spend the resources.
Going forward the Provisional (Entry grade)credential is going to be more of a permit for non-US applicants. It will allow you to apply for HI DE vacancies for three years and if you dont teach in HI its not going to be transitional to a Standard (professional grade). What HI wants is DTs who dont require a visa, are NESs in American standard English, have been trained and prepared in US education meds/peds/asst and have experience in an American classroom. They dont want to spend the resources to evaluate applications that are for the most part border line fall through a crack situations. Their position is that if you have a credential from some other regulating authority that recognizes you as a professional edu than use that credential when applying to ISs in IE. What HI found was really happening is that applicants with academic qualifications but not credentials for whatever reason and importantly questionable experience that really didnt align with what HI was and is looking for. Its important to note in this instance that (unlike CA), HI does not have a mutual recognition process for private/independent experience, and that they are and have always been specific that they consider valid experience, experience earned in a US state (or territory), and while this includes private/independent DSs in the US, they do not recognize any amount of that experience as a substitute for an EPP/ITT program.
The shift in HI is now towards all requirements being US. It would still be 'possible' in some very, very narrow scenarios for a non-US citizen to meet the requirements. They could obtain a credential through DC for example and teach at an AS and use the DC Standard (Professional grade) credential and that experience to qualify for the HI Standard (Professional grade) credential. Thats a very small number of ISs (and by AS in this instance I mean essentially a US embassy IS), but the rules dont specify that non-US citizen applicants are barred.
You can still apply for a Provisional (entry grade) credential which would be valid for 3 years and you could use a credential such as the MA Provisional (entry grade credential) to apply for and obtain the HI Provisional credential (though I cant see why you'd want to do this since the MA Provisional credential is essentially a lifetime credential).

Your description of the HI Provisional (Entry grade) credential is not entirely accurate strictly on its face. You can use a non-US EPP/ITT program to qualify and there is no experience requirement, but youre still going to be subject to their interpretation that a Masters, or B.Ed or some other academic qualification is not likely to be accepted. HIs interpretation is that the education program be focused on professional teaching coursework and contain a field experience component as opposed to a series of education courses that are not specifically focused training professional classroom educators. They arent going to accept a collection or theorists course work, psychology/behavior courses, and research related courses that culminate in a degree even if it is an M.Ed or other edu degree. You must also have a significant field experience component as part of the program.
Even were HI to accept your foreign program as an EPP/ITT program they would require you to complete a series of PRAXIS exams (three), which is at a disadvantage compared to the MA Provisional credential.

You do not have to surrender your Standard credential, they can file a disciplinary action but they have no basis for doing so. You didnt misrepresent your experience or qualifications and the HTSBs directive proceeds the date of your credential determination. While the HTSb would likely uphold the revocation of the credential they would very likely not be successful on appeal to the HI District court and their revocation would be overturned. They are just trying to get you to surrender it using scare tactics because they know they dont have cause.
chemteacher101
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Re: Hawaii is no longer useful for non US trained teachers

Post by chemteacher101 »

Interesting development...

For those of us who have an HI standard license and have not yet been contacted by HTSB, what would be some pathways worth contemplating in terms of moving our license to another state through reciprocity? I don't mind taking tests and such if that means my non-provisional license is safe in another state.

From what the OP states it would appear that if I wait to renew it, they will then likely tell me I cannot, so it might be better to just move now to another state before being in the same position as the OP.
PsyGuy
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Post by PsyGuy »

@chemteacher101

1) QTS, if you can get it. You probably wont though (Roulette odds). Still its an application and waiting a couple weeks.
2) MA, Surprisingly. If tests and exams arent an issue than specifically the Initial (Professional grade) credential. It would be an effective lifetime credential. You would have to typically take 3 exams: Communication Literacy, ESL, and a content specific exam. These would be the MTEL exams and a number of them (including the ESL and the Communication Literacy exam) and several content exams are available remotely, otherwise would require travel.
3) DC, good old DC. Assuming they accept your experience (2 years) AND they accept an IE letter of performance. DC recently changed their requirements from experience based to appraisal based. You need a DOE approved performance appraisal over 2 years from the jurisdiction that issued your credential. They continue to accept applicants with private/independent experience, but its at their discretion what they will accept. A HI applicant applying with only a non-HI performance letter, my coin would be against the applicant.
spanishteacher
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Re: Hawaii is no longer useful for non US trained teachers

Post by spanishteacher »

Well, I really cannot afford to do the whole "I won't surrender my license" and think of ending having to appeal through HI court. That simply is not an option.

Due to this, I have surrendered my license. That being said, I understand that this will mean that (even though I surrendered it due to an administrative error on their part) this will be reported to NASDTC and might even end up in their "clearinghouse" database... This does worry me as I imagine this might prevent me from successfully getting a different teaching license through another state in the future? I currently hold another license, will this affect it?

In all honesty, I understand they have the right to choose what type of experience they accept or not. But to basically revoke or ask for surrendering a license as a "disciplinary action" because they made an administrative error with no error from the teacher who applied... well... It simply does not feel right...
PsyGuy
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Post by PsyGuy »

@spanishteacher

Yes, thats why theres no benefit to surrender. Since, its being reported to NASDTC as a disciplinary action, because thats all the NASDTC database does. It will absolutely go into the clearinghouse and any other state you apply to will consult that database and see that you have a disciplinary action. What its going to look like is -YOU- misrepresented your experience. Any other state you would apply to is probably going to error on the side of caution and deny your application for a credential in their jurisdiction and youre not going to defend in any subsequent state either if youre not going to defend in HI. They are just going to assume you didnt defend it and at least get your position on the record that it must be true, you misrepresented your experience, and those denials are going to get added to the NASDTC clearinghouse.

Assuming your other credential is in another US state unless its in a couple of states that dont have renewal requirements, when you go to renew you will have some professional fitness/ethics questions which will require you to list any disciplinary actions. They will look in the NASDTC clearinghouse database, they then may deny your renewal (they could also grant the renewal). The tendency is to deny just out of caution. The issue is some poor technician has a choice to make and if they approve your application, despite seeing that you surrendered (in the US 'surrender' is typically a label attached to a credential when there is serious misconduct and the credential holder wants to avoid the public record of a hearing and revocation, its comparable to 'resigning' verses an inevitable dismissal for cause), and then something happens its going to come back with hard questions about 'how did this get missed'. The safe play is deny, let the actual board convene its hearing process, and let them make the decision.

It doesnt seem right because its not, but HI has issues of liability and face. If they are wrong there might be monetary damages, consequences, ramifications. If they are wrong then what does that say about their competence, whats going to be the reaction of the public? Why take those risks for a foreigner who is never going to contribute anything to edu in HI. Theres no upside for them and all downside.

Steal meet stone, their position is you used them. Theyre happy enough to let you continue using them, to give you a provisional (entry grade) credential if youre really interested in teaching in HI, but they arent interested in being a clearinghouse for IE ITs who consume resources (there are no application fees) so that those ITs can prop up a resume for ISs thousands of miles away in other countries.
spanishteacher
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Re: Hawaii is no longer useful for non US trained teachers

Post by spanishteacher »

I understand your point, but I do not feel I "used them" any more than any US teacher working internationally "uses" whatever department of education for whatever licenses they keep active while living and working abroad. Irrespective of that, and maybe it is just a cultural difference, I do find it odd that they cannot revoke or suspend a license based on an administrative error on their part without managing it as a disciplinary issue.

If my other license gets affected by it, well, too bad I guess. I went for the "surrender" option simply because the idea of a hearing, and then appealing and such, well, it does not sound like something I can do as a foreigner not even living in the US. Does the NASDTC Clearnighouse record the reason for surrender? I literally wrote that I had been asked to produce documentation pertaining my experience in the US, and given I was not currently working in HI or seeking work in HI, I would not be pursuing that path. Does it even matter the reason?
PsyGuy
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Post by PsyGuy »

@spanishteacher

How so? A US IT can move to Hawaii, or teach remotely through virtual school anywhere in the world on whimsy, they dont need a visa, which the US not HI controls. A US IT taught a US curriculum, in a US classroom, in a US environment and culture. How are any of those factors something a foreigner possesses. Youre also not kidding anyone you ~NEVER~ intended or desired to teach in HI, and you cant, a US IT at least can.

Oh they can, and they actually have that mechanism. Previously HI had a USD$250 fee, which was USD$54/yr. Most recently they implemented a new "cancellation" designation for those HI DTs that did not pay their fee, etc. They can absolutely do that, youre just not getting it, they dont want to. They really feel like they were taken advantage of and that you misrepresented your experience as being comparable to what they require. You stated the experience was comparable, they took your word for it, and it was determined that the experience wasnt comparable.

They include some data, the possible status types are:
Denial, Revocation/Invalidation, Not Available, Reinstatement, Reprimand, Surrender, Suspension.

The record allows for some clarification by addressing some statements:
Criminal case status:
Was action due to sexual misconduct?
Was action due to violent actions?
Was the action due to possession, sale, distribution, or use of an unlawful
substance?
was the act1on due to theft or fraud!
Was the action due to inappropriate actions and or communication with a
student?
Was the action due to substance abuse?
Was the action due to any manner of test or other academic fraud?
Was the action due to the misuse of school equipment?
Was the action due to financial misconduct such as defaulting on a student loan
or failure to pay child support?
Was the action due to violation of an employment contract with a school or
school district?
Was the action due to action taken by another state or federal agency?
Was the action due to circumstances not described above?

Surrender isnt seen as any different than any other, its still disciplinary action for misconduct. It doesnt matter what your excuses are.
spanishteacher
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Re: Hawaii is no longer useful for non US trained teachers

Post by spanishteacher »

In regards to "having used them", I disagree,.for many reasons.But I've lurked enough around in these forums not to try to make you accept an opinion different than your own.

Good to know about the clarification information. At least none of those will be a yes. I'll have to wait and see what effect this has in practical terms, if any.
PsyGuy
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Post by PsyGuy »

@spanishteacher

Oh I agree with you completely, Im telling you what their position is. A few years ago Teach Now expanded into HI, so you could get a credential from DC, Arizona, and then Hawaii. HI is canceling that, and all the DTs who are involved are losing their credentials and HI is doing it as a disciplinary action. They found that no one in the program got the HI credential and then moved to HI to teach.
formershark
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Re: Hawaii is no longer useful for non US trained teachers

Post by formershark »

@psyguy

You are the expert so I am hoping you could tell me what you think of my current situation.

I am an American and completed the Teach-Now program. I applied for the Hawaii Standard license and received it because I have been working at a public elementary school in Asia for the past 5 years. This was done before the HTSB changed their requirements.

Immediately after receiving my Hawaii Standard license, I applied for QTS and received it. I did this after reading your posts and figured it was worth a shot.

So I currently have a Hawaii Standard license and QTS.

I imagine the HTSB will eventually email me asking to surrender my license because all of my teaching experience has been done outside the USA. My question is - what would you do in my situation? If I surrender my Hawaii Standard license, would that have any effect on my QTS? Would there be any risk of also losing my QTS because I originally used the Hawaii Standard license to get the QTS or am I safe because QTS is lifelong? I don't want to lose my QTS.

I have no intention of ever going back to live or teach in the USA. My career is teaching English abroad and I now have a family and roots overseas. The reason I applied for QTS is so that I don't have to worry about keeping up to date on all the different PD requirements with an American teaching license.

Just to be clear - I'm an American that currently has a Hawaii Standard license and QTS. If I surrender my Hawaii Standard license due to HTSB recently changing their requirements, is there any risk of also losing my QTS or am I in the clear because QTS is lifelong?

Thank you in advance to @psyguy or any other member that has advice / insight.
PsyGuy
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Inquiry

Post by PsyGuy »

@formershark

When does your HI Standard credential expire?
formershark
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Re: Hawaii is no longer useful for non US trained teachers

Post by formershark »

In about 5 years
PsyGuy
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Reply

Post by PsyGuy »

@formershark

Kind of a long wait.

You are in a different scenario than others, youre an American, you completed a US EPP/ITT program. You completed Teach Now but you didnt say if you applied for the HI Standard credential using the Teach Now EPP/ITT or if you got the DC Credential first? Regardless, your not like others who applied as non-US Citizens and with outside qualifications and credentials. You might not be HI target in the future, and you have a different dossier. Its more likely than not, that that is the way its going to go though, that HI will clean house in its entirety. You may have more time, and it may be enough time that in four years if you see the heat coming around the corner you may be able to just let the HI credential expire. You may also want to consider moving it elsewhere such as NJ which offers a true lifetime credential, but WA, is another option which offers a comparable professional grade credential thats valid for 2 years but two years of work in WA so you will never use any of that time and it will never expire and may be easier to qualify for.

Surrendering your HI credential even if it results in a disciplinary action isnt likely to effect your QTS. Its possible at some point in the future that the TRA might require you to reaffirm another credential. The only practical way to rescind your QTS would be is if you misrepresented your HI credential in the first place, but there are plenty of ITs who obtained QTS and then let their prior credentials expire, or stopped renewing them.
You could get ahead of this and choose sooner rather than later to surrender your HI credential, it would allow you to check the other box as opposed to the avoiding disciplinary action box, you could state its to avoid PD, retiring, leaving teaching, etc. It wouldnt be reportable then, again though you might want to look at using the HI credential to first obtain another credential
https://hawaiiteacherstandardsboard.org ... 3-22-1.pdf
formershark
Posts: 3
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2021 5:38 pm

Re: Reply

Post by formershark »

PsyGuy wrote:
> @formershark
>
> Kind of a long wait.
>
> You are in a different scenario than others, youre an American, you
> completed a US EPP/ITT program. You completed Teach Now but you didnt say
> if you applied for the HI Standard credential using the Teach Now EPP/ITT
> or if you got the DC Credential first? Regardless, your not like others who
> applied as non-US Citizens and with outside qualifications and credentials.
> You might not be HI target in the future, and you have a different dossier.
> Its more likely than not, that that is the way its going to go though, that
> HI will clean house in its entirety. You may have more time, and it may be
> enough time that in four years if you see the heat coming around the corner
> you may be able to just let the HI credential expire. You may also want to
> consider moving it elsewhere such as NJ which offers a true lifetime
> credential, but WA, is another option which offers a comparable
> professional grade credential thats valid for 2 years but two years of work
> in WA so you will never use any of that time and it will never expire and
> may be easier to qualify for.
>
> Surrendering your HI credential even if it results in a disciplinary action
> isnt likely to effect your QTS. Its possible at some point in the future
> that the TRA might require you to reaffirm another credential. The only
> practical way to rescind your QTS would be is if you misrepresented your
> HI credential in the first place, but there are plenty of ITs who obtained
> QTS and then let their prior credentials expire, or stopped renewing them.
> You could get ahead of this and choose sooner rather than later to
> surrender your HI credential, it would allow you to check the other box as
> opposed to the avoiding disciplinary action box, you could state its to
> avoid PD, retiring, leaving teaching, etc. It wouldnt be reportable then,
> again though you might want to look at using the HI credential to first
> obtain another credential
>
> https://hawaiiteacherstandardsboard.org ... 3-22-1.pdf

@psyguy

Thank you for taking the time to help me out. I'm gonna think about it for a few days, but I'm leaning towards voluntarily surrendering the license for 2 reasons. 1) I don't want to wait around for HTSB to email me & 2) I'd like to surrender my license and avoid the disciplinary action. Do you think that's a good way to handle this? Is there anything I am missing or maybe not aware of?

Final question if I may - What reason would you use for surrendering the license? I was thinking about using... "Unable to meet PD requirements"

Thanks again - you are a legend.
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