I taught ESL in South Korea for six years and returned to the US summer of last year to acquire a teaching license through the TeacherReady program of Florida (thanks PsyGuy for the info in your various threads). I completed the TeacherReady program in December and the FTCE exams for Florida in January. At the time of enrollment, I wasn't sure if I wanted to teach internationally or not, and since I am a Georgia resident, I also completed the GACE exams and EDTPA requirements for them. I'm now waiting on the Florida DOE to issue my teaching license which I intend to use to acquire a Georgia teaching license (I'll be certified to teach ELA 6-12 in both states).
I have now decided that I want to go back abroad and work at an international school. I have decided that a place like the Middle East might be my best option for earning some money. However, I see many job listings that ask for 2+ years of post-license experience. Are there any legitimate international schools in the Middle East that will hire me with only ~200 hours of student teaching experience on top of six years ESL experience and a year of online teaching experience (worked at DaDa while attending TeacherReady)? If so, what kind of salary should I expect?
I also have a tangential question--if I do find a school willing to give me a foot in the door, should I use my Florida teaching license, the Georgia license, or does it simply not matter?
Hoping to get my foot in the door
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Thames Pirate
- Posts: 1188
- Joined: Fri Jul 05, 2013 8:06 am
Re: Hoping to get my foot in the door
The two-year thing varies in terms of how seriously people take it. Lots of schools hire straight out of licensure. Lots more don't or even can't based on visa requirements. Some will and some won't acknowledge your pre-licensure teaching.
So there is no easy answer. My advice is always to apply anyway. You can't know if you don't try.
So there is no easy answer. My advice is always to apply anyway. You can't know if you don't try.
Reply
The forum consensus of the major contributors (a pretty big event for us) is that 2 years post credential experience in DE is highly advised. However there are other factors, neither FL nor GA are suffering a shortage of EL/Literature ITs, so unless you have or know someone who can get you a job youre going to have a hard time getting that two years of experience, you could be waiting years.
So while that two years experience is important there are lots of hardship regions and lower tier ISs that would like that but cant get it, and have a much lower quality of candidate they have to appoint from, and they will appoint with less than to years experience.
Visa and immigration requirements do play a role, but usually an IS will know how to get around them in such cases your ESL experience may be used to secure you a visa or work permit.
Are these ISs legitimate? In what way do you define legitimate? They will mostly be local DSs or Academy ISs that will have some kind of western program (even if that means they hired westerners to teach whatever it is they teach). At a certain point in bottom third tier ISs it really just comes down to, do they pay their coin, and do they pay on time and is your housing livable.
None of your ESOL or field work will count, maybe your online experience, maybe a portion of it. You shouldn't expect anything higher than step 1 or 2 on the salary scale. Other than that what your really looking for is the OSH package. How much coin out of pocket do you have to accommodate for, do they fly you in and out, or is the out only if you renew (or is there an out). Whats the housing? Do they pay visa and document fees? Whats the relocation if any?
It doesnt matter which credential you use. I would say FL since that as your initial credential, and has the closest link to your EPP/ITT program. Once you get the FL credential you should apply for QTS.
So while that two years experience is important there are lots of hardship regions and lower tier ISs that would like that but cant get it, and have a much lower quality of candidate they have to appoint from, and they will appoint with less than to years experience.
Visa and immigration requirements do play a role, but usually an IS will know how to get around them in such cases your ESL experience may be used to secure you a visa or work permit.
Are these ISs legitimate? In what way do you define legitimate? They will mostly be local DSs or Academy ISs that will have some kind of western program (even if that means they hired westerners to teach whatever it is they teach). At a certain point in bottom third tier ISs it really just comes down to, do they pay their coin, and do they pay on time and is your housing livable.
None of your ESOL or field work will count, maybe your online experience, maybe a portion of it. You shouldn't expect anything higher than step 1 or 2 on the salary scale. Other than that what your really looking for is the OSH package. How much coin out of pocket do you have to accommodate for, do they fly you in and out, or is the out only if you renew (or is there an out). Whats the housing? Do they pay visa and document fees? Whats the relocation if any?
It doesnt matter which credential you use. I would say FL since that as your initial credential, and has the closest link to your EPP/ITT program. Once you get the FL credential you should apply for QTS.
Re: Hoping to get my foot in the door
PsyGuy, thanks for your reply. I am currently sending out applications and putting my resume in places where I think I might be able to find employment in "Tier 3 International Schools." My biggest concern is finding employment that will help me move up in the future to better schools. Thats what I mean when I say "legitimate." But to be honest, I'm unsure of how to gauge for myself which schools would be considered credible, valuable experience by future employers, and which would not. The last thing that I want to do is spend 2 years working a gig only to discover that future employees will not consider that experience valuable. Do you have any tips on what to look for?
Also, I have a question about your QTS comment. As I understand it, QTS is a UK teachers' thing. What is the value of it for an American trained and certified teacher?
Also, I have a question about your QTS comment. As I understand it, QTS is a UK teachers' thing. What is the value of it for an American trained and certified teacher?
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Thames Pirate
- Posts: 1188
- Joined: Fri Jul 05, 2013 8:06 am
Re: Hoping to get my foot in the door
PsyGuy rejects the idea that one can get into a good school without experience, but as always, there are exceptions and it's up to you how to play it. I have known people to get into Tier 2 schools as their first post-uni job, do two years, and end up at Tier 1 schools. They had no experience, while you have pre-credential experience. So limiting your search is your choice, but don't assume you can't get something decent or even good just because PG says so.
Are your chances more limited? Sure. Is there a set-in-stone rule? Nope.
Are your chances more limited? Sure. Is there a set-in-stone rule? Nope.
Re: Hoping to get my foot in the door
Thames Pirate, I appreciate your positivity on the subject. I am definitely trying to shoot for the best position that I can secure. Can you provide any tips on how to tell the difference between a Tier 3 and Tier 2 school? Is it simply a difference in pay scale? Number of students? Curriculum taught? I am fumbling through open positions and I see jobs all over China that teach K-12 students and claim to be international schools. Does it matter if they are privately owned or run by the state? How can I be sure that work at a school will be recognized by future employers?
Or perhaps I'm just over-thinking the whole thing, and its just a matter of securing a job that requires a teaching license?
Or perhaps I'm just over-thinking the whole thing, and its just a matter of securing a job that requires a teaching license?
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Thames Pirate
- Posts: 1188
- Joined: Fri Jul 05, 2013 8:06 am
Re: Hoping to get my foot in the door
Ultimately the tiers are subjective. But the main factors that people seem to consider are reputation (this is where entrenched old schools are the "top" schools even if they are pretty awful now), pay/package, international flavour (both staff and especially students), working conditions, and accreditation. Make sure the school has something like IB, NEASC, CIS, etc. Non-profit is usually a good sign, but not always; there can be good for-profit schools. The same is true for ownership.
There is no magic formula, and some people would prefer to work at the BigNameSchool in spite of the fact that recent reviews are awful--others prefer a good working environment at a relatively unknown school. Find what works for you and don't worry too much about tiers. Also, don't worry too much about the two years requirement; schools for whom it is non-negotiable will filter you out anyway, and schools for whom it's flexible appreciate a good application. Schools that want you will count your non-licensed teaching and schools that don't will use it as another way of filtering. Sometimes they do it to discourage the spam mass applications.
My point is this: Every recruiter has different needs and wants, just as every teacher has different skills and offerings. Apply to as many schools as you can that interest or might interest you, regardless of the tier designation. The truly top schools have enough applicants that they can afford to pass on a "risk" (new teacher), but pretty much any school is worth a shot. You may have just the skill set they are wanting. Don't let "rules" or some person on a forum discourage you from applying to whatever schools you want. Sure, you probably won't get WAB right out of the gate, but there are a LOT of good schools out there.
There is no magic formula, and some people would prefer to work at the BigNameSchool in spite of the fact that recent reviews are awful--others prefer a good working environment at a relatively unknown school. Find what works for you and don't worry too much about tiers. Also, don't worry too much about the two years requirement; schools for whom it is non-negotiable will filter you out anyway, and schools for whom it's flexible appreciate a good application. Schools that want you will count your non-licensed teaching and schools that don't will use it as another way of filtering. Sometimes they do it to discourage the spam mass applications.
My point is this: Every recruiter has different needs and wants, just as every teacher has different skills and offerings. Apply to as many schools as you can that interest or might interest you, regardless of the tier designation. The truly top schools have enough applicants that they can afford to pass on a "risk" (new teacher), but pretty much any school is worth a shot. You may have just the skill set they are wanting. Don't let "rules" or some person on a forum discourage you from applying to whatever schools you want. Sure, you probably won't get WAB right out of the gate, but there are a LOT of good schools out there.
Re: Hoping to get my foot in the door
Thames Pirate, thank you for your thoughtful reply. I have put my resume on Teaching Nomad, Teach Away, Edvectus, Naukri, Bayt, Ajarn, Footprints, and I am considering paid services like Search Associates. Are there any other job boards/recruiting agencies that you might recommend?
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Thames Pirate
- Posts: 1188
- Joined: Fri Jul 05, 2013 8:06 am
Re: Hoping to get my foot in the door
Good schools don't use most of those. They only use the big agencies and independent applications. That is also how I look for jobs. Big agency (I like Search) and lots of googling. Expat forums will get you to a lot of schools off the beaten track, some of which might be excellent, just not as well known.
Also, if cash flow is an issue, TIE is decent and cheap.
Also, if cash flow is an issue, TIE is decent and cheap.
Reply
@phyrro
If the IS conducts instruction from morning too afternoon, your course descriptions look like subject matter content classes, theres a western leadership somewhere, its probably okay as long as your not labeled in "ESOL", than you have to work more. Even better if theres a western IE accreditation, and of course your doing this post credentialing.
If on the other side of the continuum, your classes are in the afternoon or evening your curriculum is mainly based on language fluency and vocabulary and everyone other than the ITs/ETs is a local than your looking for at an ES and it probably doesnt count.
Yes, QTS is a UK thing, if by thing you mean the professional edu credential for English trained DTs, to work in regulated (maintained) DSs.
QTs has a couple of benefits: Its a lifetime credential and requires no PD, has no renewal requirements. Compared to many US regulating authorities who require PD and have expiring credentials. QTS can expand or 'stretch' a US credential in terms of age groups. QTS for IE purposes is valid for all subjects and all age levels. A US IT with a 8-12 science credential or a 5-9 science credential can use QTS to expand that science credential to all age levels (from a technical perspective). QTS costs nothing, and takes a week or two to issue. If you ever teach in a BS or a UK DS you will have full QTS and not have the label of a NQT, since you will not be required to undergo induction. It will increase your utility when applying to BSs.
I absolutely and fully agree and concur with @Thames Pirate, nothing surprises me anymore, Ive seen elementary DTs with a year experience go into senior leadership. Ive seen ITs without a degree or credential or experience get classrooms at SLL. Everything happens in IE, someone also wins the lottery, but I write from a position that you want a response closer to what would be commonly expected, not what the outliers are.
There is no objective definition of Tier 1, Tier 2, or Tier 3, and as such there is no "master list" of who is in which list, and to that end even if there was no one would agree on it. The greatest consensus is found in the middle of the tiers, and the least in the margins, but there would still be a lot of disagreement. As a community we tend to agree achieve consensus on the top and the bottom of the tiers. Our biggest disagreement is the margins in-between and the middle. Though if your on the international school circuit long enough you get a feel for which schools are at which tier. School quality also has a lot to do with where you are a tier 2 school in Hong Kong, might be a tier 1 school in mainland China...
There is no "definition" of Tier 1, Tier 2, or Tier 3. Its all subjective, There are several models generally applied to dividing of the tiers, the teacher model is:
Elite Tier: Top schools in the first tier usually 1-2 schools.
1st Tier: The top 5%
2nd Tier: 75%-95%
3rd Tier: Bottom 75%
Upper tier is typically the elite, first tier and some portion of the second tier. Lower tier is the third tier and some portion of the second tier.
In general when teachers describe a tier 1, etc school from one another it comes down to
1) Compensation package
2) Work environment.
Historically the compensation package is the priority, not because of greed or anything, but because its easy to quantify. If your in Brazil, $30K is better then $28K. Schools that pay more for a given region tend to have more stable finances (a sign of longevity, given enrollment, and reputation), and have larger endowments, meaning they have been around long enough to develop efficiency and have well planed capitol projects. Better schools can charge more in fees, and be more selective in their admissions. This creates more "cash" on hand for salaries and benefits.
COMPENSATION:
Typically includes (in this order of importance/priority:
1) Salary (based on number of contract or teaching hours per week)
2) Housing (including utility costs)
3) Tuition (If you have kids. In addition if you have a non teaching spouse, how easy is it for them to find a job)
4) Transportation (Including Airfare, moving, and settling in allowances).
5) Insurance (Mostly how good the medical is)
6) Retirement (Including end of year bonuses).
WORK ENVIRONMENT:
Working conditions is the far more subjective of the two. It means something slightly different to everyone. But can include as a general principal (and these get more "fuzzy" the lower I go):
1) Staff/Faculty/Parents:How qualified are your co teachers? Do they know what they are doing? Do the aids, secretaries try and help you? Is the PTA crazy helicopter parents? Are the parents really the ones running the school?
2) Admins Management Style: Biggest reason for a school to go down hill. Does the admin back the teachers? Are they just a spokesperson for the owners? Do they yield to parent pressure? Do they value faculty input? Do they care?
3) Organization: Does the front/back office run efficiently? Do you get reimbursed in a timely fashion? Are salaries paid on time? Is the school relationship with the local immigration bureau good, can they process visas, permits, etc quickly?
4) Resources: Do you have a projector? Access to computers, internet? Can you make copies when you need too. What about textbooks, are they old and out dated, do teachers even use them? Whats the library look like? Whats the cafeteria look like (do they feed the teacher lunch?) Do you have a classroom/department budget, or do you have to ask for everything?
5) Academics: Do they have a curriculum? Do they use the curriculum? Does the department share a common curriculum or does everybody teach what they know and prefer? What are the assessment/grading policies and procedures?
6) Community: Are the people nice, friendly, helpful? What's there too do in the area? Is it safe? Clean? Is transportation easily accessible? Availability of shopping/groceries? Medical Care? This could be a long one....
JOB SEARCH:
1st tier schools are typically non-profit private preparatory schools that focus on an international student body. They are very westernized, and would be very similar to a private school in western cultures.
2nd tier schools are private private non-profits that act like for profits. They are predominately domestic students, who are affluent. They are equivalent to a "good" public school in a western culture.
3rd tier schools are for profit schools that are run as business. The purpose is to make generate revenue, and provide the owner with some level of prestige and status. Education is just the product, the students parents just the consumers.
Most 3rd tier schools advertise on TIE Online, Joy Jobs, and with SEARCH. You can also find them on Daves ESL Cafe (They advertise everywhere, except the "selective" recruitment agencies, such as ISS)
Tier 3 schools either pay very well because the only reason someone would work there is the money, or they pay enough to get by. Most of these schools are in the middle east or africa. There are some very "beautiful" schools that Dante could use to deepen the levels of hell a bit, and the only reason they have faculty is because 1) The money, 2) Desperate teachers who cant do any better. Of course one issue that i see common with Tier 3 schools is related to "safety" either the regional culture is very very rigid, with serious consequences for what you might consider "minor rule infractions" or the region/area could become quickly hostile and dangerous...
Your typical "ESL School" is right around the border between tier 3 and tier 2 schools.
"Elite" (also called prestige or premier) schools are a subset of tier 1 schools, that represent the top school(s) in the region.
An "elite" or "premiere" international school is simply the top (or contested top) tier one school in a region (or city). What differentiates them is they usually have the best reputation in an area as "THE" school, and you see that in a compensation package that is substantially higher then the other tier one schools in the area, as well as in their staff support, resources, and facilities.
Tier status is only comparable to other schools within a region. Local economies, costs of living, cultural differences make global comparisons unhelpful. For example; most European schools dont provide housing, and taxes are high so even though salaries would rival many that you would find in a place like China, the savings potential and lifestyle you can live are very different (and often better in Asia).
Elite (also called premier) doesnt equal easy. Elite schools typically expect a lot from their teachers. Some teachers thrive in that environment, some dont.
Why a separate category? well there is typically a substantial and significant increase in work and compensation between the "elite" school and the other tier one schools.
I guess thats 4 levels. is there a lower level, some people throw tier 4, and lower levels around, but i have to think that is really just an individual adding insult to injury when they call a particular school a "tier 4" school.
I'll start with the easy question: the premium agencies are 1) International School Services (ISS) and 2) Search Associates (Search or SA). ISS is smaller and only handles ISS schools (even if all they are providing a school is Recruiting Services) ISS has the "better" schools, as they have a higher bar/standard on what schools they will represent. Search has a much larger database (almost a 1,000 schools compared to ISS's 150), as they accept pretty much all of the tier 1 and tier 2 schools (and some of the tier 3 schools), so they have more opportunities available (although you have to tolerate all the job vacancies coming out of schools in the middle east, which never seem to end). ISS also has higher standards for what teachers they will accept, generally ISS doesnt accept teachers who arent currently employed. ISS works a little more personally to help you find a job, where Search recruiters may or may not do anything for you. Cost is also an issue. Search is $200 for three years of database access, and one free fair (additional fairs are $50 each). ISS is $185 for two years (2 seasons, it use to be one year), and the conference fee is $290 (which covers all conferences, but most people cant afford to go to more then 1 a year anyway). I'm a member of Search, and use to be a member of ISS. The really elite schools list with both companies, and the big fairs for each agency kind of run back to back of one another (the Big fairs for Each are the Cambridge/Boston fair, and the Bangkok fair).
CIS is another organization that does teacher recruiting though they arent as international, they primarily cater to UK schools (and the British school curriculum), and to a lessor extent European schools. Their big fair is in London (their is no cost to attend), and they dont accept teachers who arent currently employed. Their standards are pretty high though.
In the smaller recruiting agencies (and cheaper) you have Joy Jobs and TIE-Online (The International Educator), they have small fees about $40 each. They get the smaller schools, and some last minute positions, but they have pretty small databases. I've never subscribed to either one, and have heard mixed reviews about them. One person on this board found a DREAM job in Japan on them, one person hasnt gotten them to take down his profile for years, and keeps getting messages from them (honestly other people on this forum, are in a better position to comment).
Below that you have all the "free" web sites, though these mostly are for ESL positions, sites like: TES, Daves ESL cafe, Gaijinpot, Ajarn, Footprints, are free and occasionally have non ESL positions advertised. Back in the day when I first got into education I got my first teaching job (in Thailand) through one of those sites. if your a real educator/teacher though they wont have the caliber of schools youd be interested in.
Lastly, you can always do a very successful job search without a recruiter on your own. Many members of this forum, have and continue to be successful this way. It depends how much time you have, and what your focus is. Agencies like Search and ISS certainly provide benefits (your references are all in one place), and they make the search easier, as well as provide contract information such as salaries, and other compensation information. You also get to go to the fairs where the hiring really happens (especially if your new). That being said, if you have a specific region that your interested in such as France, its very easy to just google that and get a list of schools, and just keep checking their HR site for vacancies. If your interested in only the DOS schools (Department of State supported schools) you can go to their website and just click on the schools websites and bookmark their HR pages. Of course this also requires more time on your end, but for people who have specific focused (narrow) interests it could be worthwhile. For instance Search only lists 3 schools in France in their database, and their are 11 International Schools in France, so even if you were a Search member youd have to do your own updateing with the other 8 schools on your own anyway. $200 for 3 schools isnt a whole lot, especially for schools in Eastern Europe where there is only 1 or 2 search Schools in their database. For some people its more important where they are, then how much money they are making.
If the IS conducts instruction from morning too afternoon, your course descriptions look like subject matter content classes, theres a western leadership somewhere, its probably okay as long as your not labeled in "ESOL", than you have to work more. Even better if theres a western IE accreditation, and of course your doing this post credentialing.
If on the other side of the continuum, your classes are in the afternoon or evening your curriculum is mainly based on language fluency and vocabulary and everyone other than the ITs/ETs is a local than your looking for at an ES and it probably doesnt count.
Yes, QTS is a UK thing, if by thing you mean the professional edu credential for English trained DTs, to work in regulated (maintained) DSs.
QTs has a couple of benefits: Its a lifetime credential and requires no PD, has no renewal requirements. Compared to many US regulating authorities who require PD and have expiring credentials. QTS can expand or 'stretch' a US credential in terms of age groups. QTS for IE purposes is valid for all subjects and all age levels. A US IT with a 8-12 science credential or a 5-9 science credential can use QTS to expand that science credential to all age levels (from a technical perspective). QTS costs nothing, and takes a week or two to issue. If you ever teach in a BS or a UK DS you will have full QTS and not have the label of a NQT, since you will not be required to undergo induction. It will increase your utility when applying to BSs.
I absolutely and fully agree and concur with @Thames Pirate, nothing surprises me anymore, Ive seen elementary DTs with a year experience go into senior leadership. Ive seen ITs without a degree or credential or experience get classrooms at SLL. Everything happens in IE, someone also wins the lottery, but I write from a position that you want a response closer to what would be commonly expected, not what the outliers are.
There is no objective definition of Tier 1, Tier 2, or Tier 3, and as such there is no "master list" of who is in which list, and to that end even if there was no one would agree on it. The greatest consensus is found in the middle of the tiers, and the least in the margins, but there would still be a lot of disagreement. As a community we tend to agree achieve consensus on the top and the bottom of the tiers. Our biggest disagreement is the margins in-between and the middle. Though if your on the international school circuit long enough you get a feel for which schools are at which tier. School quality also has a lot to do with where you are a tier 2 school in Hong Kong, might be a tier 1 school in mainland China...
There is no "definition" of Tier 1, Tier 2, or Tier 3. Its all subjective, There are several models generally applied to dividing of the tiers, the teacher model is:
Elite Tier: Top schools in the first tier usually 1-2 schools.
1st Tier: The top 5%
2nd Tier: 75%-95%
3rd Tier: Bottom 75%
Upper tier is typically the elite, first tier and some portion of the second tier. Lower tier is the third tier and some portion of the second tier.
In general when teachers describe a tier 1, etc school from one another it comes down to
1) Compensation package
2) Work environment.
Historically the compensation package is the priority, not because of greed or anything, but because its easy to quantify. If your in Brazil, $30K is better then $28K. Schools that pay more for a given region tend to have more stable finances (a sign of longevity, given enrollment, and reputation), and have larger endowments, meaning they have been around long enough to develop efficiency and have well planed capitol projects. Better schools can charge more in fees, and be more selective in their admissions. This creates more "cash" on hand for salaries and benefits.
COMPENSATION:
Typically includes (in this order of importance/priority:
1) Salary (based on number of contract or teaching hours per week)
2) Housing (including utility costs)
3) Tuition (If you have kids. In addition if you have a non teaching spouse, how easy is it for them to find a job)
4) Transportation (Including Airfare, moving, and settling in allowances).
5) Insurance (Mostly how good the medical is)
6) Retirement (Including end of year bonuses).
WORK ENVIRONMENT:
Working conditions is the far more subjective of the two. It means something slightly different to everyone. But can include as a general principal (and these get more "fuzzy" the lower I go):
1) Staff/Faculty/Parents:How qualified are your co teachers? Do they know what they are doing? Do the aids, secretaries try and help you? Is the PTA crazy helicopter parents? Are the parents really the ones running the school?
2) Admins Management Style: Biggest reason for a school to go down hill. Does the admin back the teachers? Are they just a spokesperson for the owners? Do they yield to parent pressure? Do they value faculty input? Do they care?
3) Organization: Does the front/back office run efficiently? Do you get reimbursed in a timely fashion? Are salaries paid on time? Is the school relationship with the local immigration bureau good, can they process visas, permits, etc quickly?
4) Resources: Do you have a projector? Access to computers, internet? Can you make copies when you need too. What about textbooks, are they old and out dated, do teachers even use them? Whats the library look like? Whats the cafeteria look like (do they feed the teacher lunch?) Do you have a classroom/department budget, or do you have to ask for everything?
5) Academics: Do they have a curriculum? Do they use the curriculum? Does the department share a common curriculum or does everybody teach what they know and prefer? What are the assessment/grading policies and procedures?
6) Community: Are the people nice, friendly, helpful? What's there too do in the area? Is it safe? Clean? Is transportation easily accessible? Availability of shopping/groceries? Medical Care? This could be a long one....
JOB SEARCH:
1st tier schools are typically non-profit private preparatory schools that focus on an international student body. They are very westernized, and would be very similar to a private school in western cultures.
2nd tier schools are private private non-profits that act like for profits. They are predominately domestic students, who are affluent. They are equivalent to a "good" public school in a western culture.
3rd tier schools are for profit schools that are run as business. The purpose is to make generate revenue, and provide the owner with some level of prestige and status. Education is just the product, the students parents just the consumers.
Most 3rd tier schools advertise on TIE Online, Joy Jobs, and with SEARCH. You can also find them on Daves ESL Cafe (They advertise everywhere, except the "selective" recruitment agencies, such as ISS)
Tier 3 schools either pay very well because the only reason someone would work there is the money, or they pay enough to get by. Most of these schools are in the middle east or africa. There are some very "beautiful" schools that Dante could use to deepen the levels of hell a bit, and the only reason they have faculty is because 1) The money, 2) Desperate teachers who cant do any better. Of course one issue that i see common with Tier 3 schools is related to "safety" either the regional culture is very very rigid, with serious consequences for what you might consider "minor rule infractions" or the region/area could become quickly hostile and dangerous...
Your typical "ESL School" is right around the border between tier 3 and tier 2 schools.
"Elite" (also called prestige or premier) schools are a subset of tier 1 schools, that represent the top school(s) in the region.
An "elite" or "premiere" international school is simply the top (or contested top) tier one school in a region (or city). What differentiates them is they usually have the best reputation in an area as "THE" school, and you see that in a compensation package that is substantially higher then the other tier one schools in the area, as well as in their staff support, resources, and facilities.
Tier status is only comparable to other schools within a region. Local economies, costs of living, cultural differences make global comparisons unhelpful. For example; most European schools dont provide housing, and taxes are high so even though salaries would rival many that you would find in a place like China, the savings potential and lifestyle you can live are very different (and often better in Asia).
Elite (also called premier) doesnt equal easy. Elite schools typically expect a lot from their teachers. Some teachers thrive in that environment, some dont.
Why a separate category? well there is typically a substantial and significant increase in work and compensation between the "elite" school and the other tier one schools.
I guess thats 4 levels. is there a lower level, some people throw tier 4, and lower levels around, but i have to think that is really just an individual adding insult to injury when they call a particular school a "tier 4" school.
I'll start with the easy question: the premium agencies are 1) International School Services (ISS) and 2) Search Associates (Search or SA). ISS is smaller and only handles ISS schools (even if all they are providing a school is Recruiting Services) ISS has the "better" schools, as they have a higher bar/standard on what schools they will represent. Search has a much larger database (almost a 1,000 schools compared to ISS's 150), as they accept pretty much all of the tier 1 and tier 2 schools (and some of the tier 3 schools), so they have more opportunities available (although you have to tolerate all the job vacancies coming out of schools in the middle east, which never seem to end). ISS also has higher standards for what teachers they will accept, generally ISS doesnt accept teachers who arent currently employed. ISS works a little more personally to help you find a job, where Search recruiters may or may not do anything for you. Cost is also an issue. Search is $200 for three years of database access, and one free fair (additional fairs are $50 each). ISS is $185 for two years (2 seasons, it use to be one year), and the conference fee is $290 (which covers all conferences, but most people cant afford to go to more then 1 a year anyway). I'm a member of Search, and use to be a member of ISS. The really elite schools list with both companies, and the big fairs for each agency kind of run back to back of one another (the Big fairs for Each are the Cambridge/Boston fair, and the Bangkok fair).
CIS is another organization that does teacher recruiting though they arent as international, they primarily cater to UK schools (and the British school curriculum), and to a lessor extent European schools. Their big fair is in London (their is no cost to attend), and they dont accept teachers who arent currently employed. Their standards are pretty high though.
In the smaller recruiting agencies (and cheaper) you have Joy Jobs and TIE-Online (The International Educator), they have small fees about $40 each. They get the smaller schools, and some last minute positions, but they have pretty small databases. I've never subscribed to either one, and have heard mixed reviews about them. One person on this board found a DREAM job in Japan on them, one person hasnt gotten them to take down his profile for years, and keeps getting messages from them (honestly other people on this forum, are in a better position to comment).
Below that you have all the "free" web sites, though these mostly are for ESL positions, sites like: TES, Daves ESL cafe, Gaijinpot, Ajarn, Footprints, are free and occasionally have non ESL positions advertised. Back in the day when I first got into education I got my first teaching job (in Thailand) through one of those sites. if your a real educator/teacher though they wont have the caliber of schools youd be interested in.
Lastly, you can always do a very successful job search without a recruiter on your own. Many members of this forum, have and continue to be successful this way. It depends how much time you have, and what your focus is. Agencies like Search and ISS certainly provide benefits (your references are all in one place), and they make the search easier, as well as provide contract information such as salaries, and other compensation information. You also get to go to the fairs where the hiring really happens (especially if your new). That being said, if you have a specific region that your interested in such as France, its very easy to just google that and get a list of schools, and just keep checking their HR site for vacancies. If your interested in only the DOS schools (Department of State supported schools) you can go to their website and just click on the schools websites and bookmark their HR pages. Of course this also requires more time on your end, but for people who have specific focused (narrow) interests it could be worthwhile. For instance Search only lists 3 schools in France in their database, and their are 11 International Schools in France, so even if you were a Search member youd have to do your own updateing with the other 8 schools on your own anyway. $200 for 3 schools isnt a whole lot, especially for schools in Eastern Europe where there is only 1 or 2 search Schools in their database. For some people its more important where they are, then how much money they are making.
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Thames Pirate
- Posts: 1188
- Joined: Fri Jul 05, 2013 8:06 am
Re: Hoping to get my foot in the door
I love the copy-and-paste stock responses.
Re: Hoping to get my foot in the door
I too am optimistic that you can find something without the 2 years post-qual experience. Probably not in the best schools, but in acceptable ones. It's April, and that works in your favor. Schools with high aspirations in October are watching their options shrink as the summer approaches, and might take a chance. Having pre-qual experience definitely works in your favor here, as at least you've run your own classroom before.
What you might find is that while your prior experience might help you get an offer, it is unlikely to be counted in the pay scale. Win some, lose some.
What you might find is that while your prior experience might help you get an offer, it is unlikely to be counted in the pay scale. Win some, lose some.
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GrumblesMcGee
- Posts: 72
- Joined: Wed Apr 17, 2019 7:53 pm
Re: Reply
PsyGuy wrote:
> I'll start with the easy question: the premium agencies are 1)
> International School Services (ISS) and 2) Search Associates (Search or
> SA). ISS is smaller and only handles ISS schools (even if all they are
> providing a school is Recruiting Services) ISS has the "better"
> schools, as they have a higher bar/standard on what schools they will
> represent. Search has a much larger database (almost a 1,000 schools
> compared to ISS's 150), as they accept pretty much all of the tier 1 and
> tier 2 schools (and some of the tier 3 schools), so they have more
> opportunities available (although you have to tolerate all the job
> vacancies coming out of schools in the middle east, which never seem to
> end). ISS also has higher standards for what teachers they will accept,
> generally ISS doesnt accept teachers who arent currently employed. ISS
> works a little more personally to help you find a job, where Search
> recruiters may or may not do anything for you. Cost is also an issue.
> Search is $200 for three years of database access, and one free fair
> (additional fairs are $50 each). ISS is $185 for two years (2 seasons, it
> use to be one year), and the conference fee is $290 (which covers all
> conferences, but most people cant afford to go to more then 1 a year
> anyway). I'm a member of Search, and use to be a member of ISS. The really
> elite schools list with both companies, and the big fairs for each agency
> kind of run back to back of one another (the Big fairs for Each are the
> Cambridge/Boston fair, and the Bangkok fair).
I've been following these boards a long time, and I think this is a typical example of PsyGuy being extremely helpful with 75% of his contributions, opinionated (and often highly questionable) with 20%, and factually wrong with 5%.
I agree with a lot of your contributions (and those of Thames) in this thread, particularly about the subjectivity of "tiers" and how there are plenty of outliers in terms of teacher hiring. As someone with zero international experience, an in-progress online certification, and (if you're going with a very narrow interpretation) zero K-12 teaching experience, I landed a sweet position at what you'd probably label a high Tier 2. Just like candidates, schools are unique. I've got a CV that makes most Tier 1s view me as an unnecessary (and unnecessarily expensive) risk. But then a school comes along with a university connection and a lot of cross-over faculty and find a good fit. In the past you've been rather hyperbolic about "trash" fairs and the types of jobs that are available at certain times of the year, which I think also should be subjected to the "there are plenty of outliers" logic.
Where I really disagree with is how a lot of folks (you included) value Search Associates.
For starters, ISS is $75 for one year (not sure where you're getting your figures, or maybe if they have different pricing for non-U.S. members), and the fairs are free with membership. In fact, ISS also has partnerships with other organizations (e.g., AASSA) and will let you attend fairs for free even if you're not a member in some cases.
Search isn't just $200. It's $200 for a membership that apparently terminates as soon as you're hired, whether through their help or not. That's just laughable. The idea of TEACHERS paying $200 (and shouldering thousands in fair-related costs) to a company that ignores them, then takes a lucrative placement free from schools, is bad enough to begin with. To then cut off the paid-for service simply because someone takes a job is insulting. By Search's logic, it's fine that a teacher who doesn't get placed and then takes a last-minute language academy job in Asia for $12,000/year should pay them 2% of their gross income for three years of service, which is then cancelled...and they should then pay again for the following year?
I also disagree with your description that ISS handles only "ISS schools" (though that's largely semantics), and would quibble with your - that ISS has "higher standards for what teachers" they'll accept. I spoke with plenty of people at the ISS fair who had no problem signing up, but were "rejected" (or just ignored) by Search. Search has told folks that the schools they represent "require 2 years of international experience" (which simply isn't true). As you rightly point out, Search will work with a lot of lower-tier schools. And they have shown a disturbing trend (see some of the threads on this site) of blackballing teachers based on highly questionable claims from administrators, then providing no explanation/transparency/redress.
Anyway, /rant. I'm hopeful that the recruiting process is beginning major change, that things like the recruitment collaborative will squeeze out the old players (or force them to reform), that online platforms will make costly job fairs less important, etc.
> I'll start with the easy question: the premium agencies are 1)
> International School Services (ISS) and 2) Search Associates (Search or
> SA). ISS is smaller and only handles ISS schools (even if all they are
> providing a school is Recruiting Services) ISS has the "better"
> schools, as they have a higher bar/standard on what schools they will
> represent. Search has a much larger database (almost a 1,000 schools
> compared to ISS's 150), as they accept pretty much all of the tier 1 and
> tier 2 schools (and some of the tier 3 schools), so they have more
> opportunities available (although you have to tolerate all the job
> vacancies coming out of schools in the middle east, which never seem to
> end). ISS also has higher standards for what teachers they will accept,
> generally ISS doesnt accept teachers who arent currently employed. ISS
> works a little more personally to help you find a job, where Search
> recruiters may or may not do anything for you. Cost is also an issue.
> Search is $200 for three years of database access, and one free fair
> (additional fairs are $50 each). ISS is $185 for two years (2 seasons, it
> use to be one year), and the conference fee is $290 (which covers all
> conferences, but most people cant afford to go to more then 1 a year
> anyway). I'm a member of Search, and use to be a member of ISS. The really
> elite schools list with both companies, and the big fairs for each agency
> kind of run back to back of one another (the Big fairs for Each are the
> Cambridge/Boston fair, and the Bangkok fair).
I've been following these boards a long time, and I think this is a typical example of PsyGuy being extremely helpful with 75% of his contributions, opinionated (and often highly questionable) with 20%, and factually wrong with 5%.
I agree with a lot of your contributions (and those of Thames) in this thread, particularly about the subjectivity of "tiers" and how there are plenty of outliers in terms of teacher hiring. As someone with zero international experience, an in-progress online certification, and (if you're going with a very narrow interpretation) zero K-12 teaching experience, I landed a sweet position at what you'd probably label a high Tier 2. Just like candidates, schools are unique. I've got a CV that makes most Tier 1s view me as an unnecessary (and unnecessarily expensive) risk. But then a school comes along with a university connection and a lot of cross-over faculty and find a good fit. In the past you've been rather hyperbolic about "trash" fairs and the types of jobs that are available at certain times of the year, which I think also should be subjected to the "there are plenty of outliers" logic.
Where I really disagree with is how a lot of folks (you included) value Search Associates.
For starters, ISS is $75 for one year (not sure where you're getting your figures, or maybe if they have different pricing for non-U.S. members), and the fairs are free with membership. In fact, ISS also has partnerships with other organizations (e.g., AASSA) and will let you attend fairs for free even if you're not a member in some cases.
Search isn't just $200. It's $200 for a membership that apparently terminates as soon as you're hired, whether through their help or not. That's just laughable. The idea of TEACHERS paying $200 (and shouldering thousands in fair-related costs) to a company that ignores them, then takes a lucrative placement free from schools, is bad enough to begin with. To then cut off the paid-for service simply because someone takes a job is insulting. By Search's logic, it's fine that a teacher who doesn't get placed and then takes a last-minute language academy job in Asia for $12,000/year should pay them 2% of their gross income for three years of service, which is then cancelled...and they should then pay again for the following year?
I also disagree with your description that ISS handles only "ISS schools" (though that's largely semantics), and would quibble with your - that ISS has "higher standards for what teachers" they'll accept. I spoke with plenty of people at the ISS fair who had no problem signing up, but were "rejected" (or just ignored) by Search. Search has told folks that the schools they represent "require 2 years of international experience" (which simply isn't true). As you rightly point out, Search will work with a lot of lower-tier schools. And they have shown a disturbing trend (see some of the threads on this site) of blackballing teachers based on highly questionable claims from administrators, then providing no explanation/transparency/redress.
Anyway, /rant. I'm hopeful that the recruiting process is beginning major change, that things like the recruitment collaborative will squeeze out the old players (or force them to reform), that online platforms will make costly job fairs less important, etc.
Discussion
@GrumblesMcGee
More like 100% right, why would I post material that was wrong?
Tiers arent really subjective, theres some subjectivity to them, but that doesnt make them subjective. You can be happy at your IS for whatever tier it is, but your perceptions of it doesnt change the tier. You can think a tier 1 IS is garbage for whatever reason, its still a tier 1 IS, and you can love your tier 3 IS for whatever reason, its still a tier 3 IS. You can think your IS is a tier 2 IS, even a high tier 2 IS, (it probably isnt) but ITs with a given IS tend to stroke their own egos by over praising and evaluating there own IS.
There are always outliers,and there is artifact and everything that can happen will happen or has happened, but someone ins the lottery too, that doesnt mean its a smart idea to invest all your savings in lottery tickets. There is an element of luck and timing involved but that doesnt invalidate the line of main effect or the average.
Because SA is valuable, thats why we value them, they are the general market of premium agencies. ISS is more the boutique experience and thats separate from ISS/Schrole Advantage.
No, ISS/Schrole Advantage is $75/yr, thats separate from ISS managed consulting and services, thats $200/2 years. ISS Managed consulting and services is kind of on the down low right now, as they are really pushing the ISS/Schrole Advantage. Fairs with ISS Managed consulting and services used to be extra, but yes they are now free for both ISS Managed consulting and services and ISS/Schrole Advantage, but the only fair of theres worth going to is BKK and then SF and they have a higher number of virtual fairs.
Yes, ISS had and will presumably int he future have a relationship with AASSA where if you attend the AASSA fair you can attend at the same time and location the ISS fair, its a dump fair but its a nice free convenience benefit. Its limited thought to that one fair experience.
SA is actually $225, but close enough for this forum, and theres nothing apparent about it, the fee buys you a three year membership or until you find a job and execute a contract at which point your membership terminates. They dont really help either, they arent executive recruiters at all, your buying access to the jobs database and access to invitations at job fairs, and yes attending those fairs can cost thousands. AND yes they charge high placement costs an IS pays USD$2,000 to register, and then if they dont attend a fair another USD$500/yr and each placement earns them another USD$2K/IT and USD$3K/leader. Yes thats their logic, and the USD$225 that ITs pay is really just a gate keeper to keep their applications system from being flooded with low quality applicants, it barely covers the associates costs of maintaining and servicing the ITs file. The placement costs or placement invoicing thats where the the real coin is for the recruiter (there isnt a percentage commission fee structure, thats ISS Managed consulting and services), but yeah thats how business works, you know if you hate it so much and its such a terrible model you can always start up your own shop, theres a number of collaboratives going on that are doing just that. If you dont like the service vote with your bank account, dont buy the service.
ISS doesnt only handle ISS ISs (try saying that seven times fast).
SA rejects candidates who arent a good fit for them that are a better fit for ISS, they have higher though different standards. Again though you have too differentiate from the everyone gets in of ISS/Schrole Advantage and the boutique services of ISS Managed consulting and services.
Well the two years experience requirement is true, but its not a requirement written in stone, there are ways in and associates do make exceptions. Theres simply a difference between the fresh DT graduate with no experience and no credentials and a couple years teaching English in Asia with a CELTA and a University mathematician with a decade of undergraduate teaching experience and an advance degree but no credential. The former isnt worth a passing thought and the latter may be worth something.
Oh I dont have to explore that aspect at all its entirely true, SA reps a lot of ISs reported about on this site. They absolutely can and have and will treat ITs harshly and there is no redress or appeal, because SA isnt a charity and they arent a ministry, they are a bushiness and they dont want to work with ITs who arent ultimately going to be profitable for them, and there isnt a lot of coin in dispute resolution for SA. The IT isnt the client, they are the commodity, the ISs they are the client.
The job fairs would go away in the beating of a hummingbirds wing, IF the leadership and recruiters for ISs wanted that to happen, but they like those tripe and the experience and they benefit more from the fast paced time restricted experience than ITs do.
More like 100% right, why would I post material that was wrong?
Tiers arent really subjective, theres some subjectivity to them, but that doesnt make them subjective. You can be happy at your IS for whatever tier it is, but your perceptions of it doesnt change the tier. You can think a tier 1 IS is garbage for whatever reason, its still a tier 1 IS, and you can love your tier 3 IS for whatever reason, its still a tier 3 IS. You can think your IS is a tier 2 IS, even a high tier 2 IS, (it probably isnt) but ITs with a given IS tend to stroke their own egos by over praising and evaluating there own IS.
There are always outliers,and there is artifact and everything that can happen will happen or has happened, but someone ins the lottery too, that doesnt mean its a smart idea to invest all your savings in lottery tickets. There is an element of luck and timing involved but that doesnt invalidate the line of main effect or the average.
Because SA is valuable, thats why we value them, they are the general market of premium agencies. ISS is more the boutique experience and thats separate from ISS/Schrole Advantage.
No, ISS/Schrole Advantage is $75/yr, thats separate from ISS managed consulting and services, thats $200/2 years. ISS Managed consulting and services is kind of on the down low right now, as they are really pushing the ISS/Schrole Advantage. Fairs with ISS Managed consulting and services used to be extra, but yes they are now free for both ISS Managed consulting and services and ISS/Schrole Advantage, but the only fair of theres worth going to is BKK and then SF and they have a higher number of virtual fairs.
Yes, ISS had and will presumably int he future have a relationship with AASSA where if you attend the AASSA fair you can attend at the same time and location the ISS fair, its a dump fair but its a nice free convenience benefit. Its limited thought to that one fair experience.
SA is actually $225, but close enough for this forum, and theres nothing apparent about it, the fee buys you a three year membership or until you find a job and execute a contract at which point your membership terminates. They dont really help either, they arent executive recruiters at all, your buying access to the jobs database and access to invitations at job fairs, and yes attending those fairs can cost thousands. AND yes they charge high placement costs an IS pays USD$2,000 to register, and then if they dont attend a fair another USD$500/yr and each placement earns them another USD$2K/IT and USD$3K/leader. Yes thats their logic, and the USD$225 that ITs pay is really just a gate keeper to keep their applications system from being flooded with low quality applicants, it barely covers the associates costs of maintaining and servicing the ITs file. The placement costs or placement invoicing thats where the the real coin is for the recruiter (there isnt a percentage commission fee structure, thats ISS Managed consulting and services), but yeah thats how business works, you know if you hate it so much and its such a terrible model you can always start up your own shop, theres a number of collaboratives going on that are doing just that. If you dont like the service vote with your bank account, dont buy the service.
ISS doesnt only handle ISS ISs (try saying that seven times fast).
SA rejects candidates who arent a good fit for them that are a better fit for ISS, they have higher though different standards. Again though you have too differentiate from the everyone gets in of ISS/Schrole Advantage and the boutique services of ISS Managed consulting and services.
Well the two years experience requirement is true, but its not a requirement written in stone, there are ways in and associates do make exceptions. Theres simply a difference between the fresh DT graduate with no experience and no credentials and a couple years teaching English in Asia with a CELTA and a University mathematician with a decade of undergraduate teaching experience and an advance degree but no credential. The former isnt worth a passing thought and the latter may be worth something.
Oh I dont have to explore that aspect at all its entirely true, SA reps a lot of ISs reported about on this site. They absolutely can and have and will treat ITs harshly and there is no redress or appeal, because SA isnt a charity and they arent a ministry, they are a bushiness and they dont want to work with ITs who arent ultimately going to be profitable for them, and there isnt a lot of coin in dispute resolution for SA. The IT isnt the client, they are the commodity, the ISs they are the client.
The job fairs would go away in the beating of a hummingbirds wing, IF the leadership and recruiters for ISs wanted that to happen, but they like those tripe and the experience and they benefit more from the fast paced time restricted experience than ITs do.