Bavarian International School
-
homeandaway
- Posts: 39
- Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2011 3:40 am
??
You have lost me PsyGuy. I am not sure why you keep going on about this 'two year payout'. No one, certainly not me, is saying that BIS should pay this guy out for his entire contract. The issue is bigger than this forum. Schools will continue to accept tentative resignations, advertise the jobs, accept a candidate and then when that applicant, upon receiving and returning their signed contract, makes plans to move to their new school, they are subsequently told that the position doesn't exist because a staff member who had previously resigned, changes their mind and says they are staying on. Or perhaps the school just took a dislike to the applicant after hiring them. Management at these schools are not to be trusted, get jealous and threatened over anyone who has a CV that is better than their own, and invent all sorts of reasons to vindictively teach someone a 'lesson' by denying them a decent CV because they dared to leave the school and seek employment elsewhere. You reap what you sow and many schools will find that they are short of staff come August-September because candidates pull the same tricks on them that they are so famous for doing to candidates.
Reply
Well there appears to be a position on this forum that the school should "just honor the contract" so assuming a standard two year contract, and there is no position, no classroom, etc what else cold "honoring the contract mean"? It has too mean paying the value of the contract.
I agree with your general premise, but in this case the school doesn't have a really practical choice. The school admins have to plan as best as they can for the upcoming year. They can't wait until they actually have official resignations in June. It would wreck havoc in the IS world. The school in this case was doing the best they could with the information they had, and it was tentative information, but they didnt have any better, and under German law they couldn't make it more definitive until early summer.
The school can't ignore the law just because it would suit them better.
You really don't want the alternative either. If none of the European schools did any recruiting in the fashion they do now, it would shift the entire recruiting season forward about 6 months and drastically compress it. You would have all these top teachers waiting to see if they got offers for Europe, until the summer which would put the top tier Asian schools on hold , which would all cascade down through out the varying tiers and regions. It would be a mad house, there would be one fair in early June, EVERYONE would have to go, and it would be the equivalent of throwing contracts n the air and whoever caught one got that position. It would look like the floor on the NYSE after the WorldComm incident. Europe and Japan would set the market, and then in the course of hours the Asian schools would fight it out, then the ME and S/C America would be jockeying candidates between money and lifestyle.
So after all they worked out, the schools would have about a month to process the paper work and documents as well as housing issues, and flights again in about a month, because most teachers have reporting days in early August. Mean while the admin team would effectively have to work all summer to handle that mad house.
Sorry the school was just doing the best they could with the information they had within the law as they were required to do. Again, the real issue is compensation. They really should have paid more, 3 months at the least. They may just have felt that their reputation could absorb the fallout, don't really know what they were thinking. If your not going to appease and settle the contract breach issue with the the candidate with your offer, don't offer them anything.
I agree with your general premise, but in this case the school doesn't have a really practical choice. The school admins have to plan as best as they can for the upcoming year. They can't wait until they actually have official resignations in June. It would wreck havoc in the IS world. The school in this case was doing the best they could with the information they had, and it was tentative information, but they didnt have any better, and under German law they couldn't make it more definitive until early summer.
The school can't ignore the law just because it would suit them better.
You really don't want the alternative either. If none of the European schools did any recruiting in the fashion they do now, it would shift the entire recruiting season forward about 6 months and drastically compress it. You would have all these top teachers waiting to see if they got offers for Europe, until the summer which would put the top tier Asian schools on hold , which would all cascade down through out the varying tiers and regions. It would be a mad house, there would be one fair in early June, EVERYONE would have to go, and it would be the equivalent of throwing contracts n the air and whoever caught one got that position. It would look like the floor on the NYSE after the WorldComm incident. Europe and Japan would set the market, and then in the course of hours the Asian schools would fight it out, then the ME and S/C America would be jockeying candidates between money and lifestyle.
So after all they worked out, the schools would have about a month to process the paper work and documents as well as housing issues, and flights again in about a month, because most teachers have reporting days in early August. Mean while the admin team would effectively have to work all summer to handle that mad house.
Sorry the school was just doing the best they could with the information they had within the law as they were required to do. Again, the real issue is compensation. They really should have paid more, 3 months at the least. They may just have felt that their reputation could absorb the fallout, don't really know what they were thinking. If your not going to appease and settle the contract breach issue with the the candidate with your offer, don't offer them anything.
-
homeandaway
- Posts: 39
- Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2011 3:40 am
No. I think you make it far more complicated than it has to be. A school I was at in the Middle East gave us a contract in December and said we had til after the Christmas holidays to consider if we were staying. We had the first week in January to make up our mind when we came back and if we said we were not staying, that decision was final and the school would begin recruiting. January to August is enough time for even the most incompetent of schools to find staff. If an admin team can't fill its roster in 6 months, then they should be looking for another job. Simple! But yes, the school should have paid him out for three months, even given that it seems as if this bloke has a history of doing this and complaining about it. The more I think about it, they got wind of his trouble making and made up some lie to release him.
On Point
Except the ME is not Germany, they dont have 6 months.
Resignations arent due until late May/early June, this is a matter of German labor law.
The schools 'ask' for tentative intent of teachers, because they cant require them to give official notice earlier, again this is German labor law.
The schools can not discharge (fire) a teacher who fails to resign, the notice of intent is non -binding (meaning they cant enforce it), again this is a matter of German labor law.
Your plan is simple and easy and the schools would love it, but again it conflicts with German labor law.
Schools that dont follow the law find themselves with very big problems, and when facing two evils: honoring a contract with a teacher who isnt even their yet, or violating the labor laws with a teacher that is their, the teacher who isnt their loses.
Resignations arent due until late May/early June, this is a matter of German labor law.
The schools 'ask' for tentative intent of teachers, because they cant require them to give official notice earlier, again this is German labor law.
The schools can not discharge (fire) a teacher who fails to resign, the notice of intent is non -binding (meaning they cant enforce it), again this is a matter of German labor law.
Your plan is simple and easy and the schools would love it, but again it conflicts with German labor law.
Schools that dont follow the law find themselves with very big problems, and when facing two evils: honoring a contract with a teacher who isnt even their yet, or violating the labor laws with a teacher that is their, the teacher who isnt their loses.
Mercy, Mercy!
You know of all of the brainless things you've written, this has got to be number 1!
"I agree with your general premise, but in this case the school doesn't have a really practical choice. The school admins have to plan as best as they can for the upcoming year. They can't wait until they actually have official resignations in June. It would wreck havoc in the IS world. The school in this case was doing the best they could with the information they had, and it was tentative information, but they didnt have any better, and under German law they couldn't make it more definitive until early summer.
The school can't ignore the law just because it would suit them better.
"You really don't want the alternative either. If none of the European schools did any recruiting in the fashion they do now, it would shift the entire recruiting season forward about 6 months and drastically compress it. You would have all these top teachers waiting to see if they got offers for Europe, until the summer which would put the top tier Asian schools on hold , which would all cascade down through out the varying tiers and regions. It would be a mad house, there would be one fair in early June, EVERYONE would have to go, and it would be the equivalent of throwing contracts n the air and whoever caught one got that position. It would look like the floor on the NYSE after the WorldComm incident. Europe and Japan would set the market, and then in the course of hours the Asian schools would fight it out, then the ME and S/C America would be jockeying candidates between money and lifestyle."
You really, truly don't understand a thing about recruiting. No European school would go out and hire teachers in January to fill "tentative" vacancies and then turn round in May and tell the people they hired: "So sorry there is no job after all." That is why the story about BIS strains the bounds of credulity. If that is what happened, I am certain that the school would have offered more than one month's salary as compensation. You, however, keep talking about your speculation as a proven fact, when it is nothing of the sort. It is myth-making and gossip-mongering of the worst kind. Until you know what happened, you should shut up. (But of course you won't.)
European schools know every year that some of their people are going to leave. That isn't a question of "intent", that is a matter of fact. Some people retire, some people know they are going home, some people are quite clear that this year is their last at a particular school and are quite prepared to say so. In such cases, they will write letters of resignation to allow schools to go out and look for their replacements. Any letter of resignation is binding. Some people, however, want to play the game of waiting as long as they are allowed by law before they declare their hand, but will indicate that they think they may be leaving. That's why, when you go to a fair, the Euro schools advertise certain jobs as definite and others as tentative. As I said, no serious school would dare to offer a contract for a tentative vacancy. This is why Euro schools tend to use the May and June fairs more than others around the world - because they have to wait for those who are late to decide.
And as for the Euro schools being the drivers of the entire recruitment season, and everyone else having to falling in line behind them - that's so far off the mark as to be laughable. Like all of your other comments on this topic.
"I agree with your general premise, but in this case the school doesn't have a really practical choice. The school admins have to plan as best as they can for the upcoming year. They can't wait until they actually have official resignations in June. It would wreck havoc in the IS world. The school in this case was doing the best they could with the information they had, and it was tentative information, but they didnt have any better, and under German law they couldn't make it more definitive until early summer.
The school can't ignore the law just because it would suit them better.
"You really don't want the alternative either. If none of the European schools did any recruiting in the fashion they do now, it would shift the entire recruiting season forward about 6 months and drastically compress it. You would have all these top teachers waiting to see if they got offers for Europe, until the summer which would put the top tier Asian schools on hold , which would all cascade down through out the varying tiers and regions. It would be a mad house, there would be one fair in early June, EVERYONE would have to go, and it would be the equivalent of throwing contracts n the air and whoever caught one got that position. It would look like the floor on the NYSE after the WorldComm incident. Europe and Japan would set the market, and then in the course of hours the Asian schools would fight it out, then the ME and S/C America would be jockeying candidates between money and lifestyle."
You really, truly don't understand a thing about recruiting. No European school would go out and hire teachers in January to fill "tentative" vacancies and then turn round in May and tell the people they hired: "So sorry there is no job after all." That is why the story about BIS strains the bounds of credulity. If that is what happened, I am certain that the school would have offered more than one month's salary as compensation. You, however, keep talking about your speculation as a proven fact, when it is nothing of the sort. It is myth-making and gossip-mongering of the worst kind. Until you know what happened, you should shut up. (But of course you won't.)
European schools know every year that some of their people are going to leave. That isn't a question of "intent", that is a matter of fact. Some people retire, some people know they are going home, some people are quite clear that this year is their last at a particular school and are quite prepared to say so. In such cases, they will write letters of resignation to allow schools to go out and look for their replacements. Any letter of resignation is binding. Some people, however, want to play the game of waiting as long as they are allowed by law before they declare their hand, but will indicate that they think they may be leaving. That's why, when you go to a fair, the Euro schools advertise certain jobs as definite and others as tentative. As I said, no serious school would dare to offer a contract for a tentative vacancy. This is why Euro schools tend to use the May and June fairs more than others around the world - because they have to wait for those who are late to decide.
And as for the Euro schools being the drivers of the entire recruitment season, and everyone else having to falling in line behind them - that's so far off the mark as to be laughable. Like all of your other comments on this topic.
-
David Getling
- Posts: 9
- Joined: Tue Oct 16, 2012 4:21 am
- Location: Enfield, UK
- Contact:
[quote="seinfeld"]They probably found your website, which looks like it was made by a grade 5 student in Frontpage 10 years ago, and saw the gripes and complaints and excuses you pull off on pretty much every school you've been in. Entertaining reading if it wasn't true so it just makes it a sad testimony on your professionalism.[/quote]
Oh well, another day, another troll. I'm curious about what it is that drives people like you and Sevarem to gratuitously insult people. Though, so I'm told, the theory is that very insecure people do this in the hope that they might be able to demean others, and thus improve their own relative position.
By the way, old sport, do try and research your facts. The "pretty much every school" is way off the mark - as are others' comments implying that I've ducked out of contracts early (NEVER), or been pushed out (with ONE exception). But then, trolls seldom let the truth stop them putting the boot in, do they?
[/i]
Oh well, another day, another troll. I'm curious about what it is that drives people like you and Sevarem to gratuitously insult people. Though, so I'm told, the theory is that very insecure people do this in the hope that they might be able to demean others, and thus improve their own relative position.
By the way, old sport, do try and research your facts. The "pretty much every school" is way off the mark - as are others' comments implying that I've ducked out of contracts early (NEVER), or been pushed out (with ONE exception). But then, trolls seldom let the truth stop them putting the boot in, do they?
[/i]
Sigh
No Walter once again your just another psyguy nemises. You really dont know what your talking about. European schools go to job fairs all the time year after year and they hire people the best they can with the information they on their vacancies, and sometimes that process breaks down.
Thanks for agreeing with me. Which is what likely happened here, the teacher indicated they would be leaving but then didnt actually resign. Yes a letter of resignation is binding, the issue is they didnt resign in the middle of the year, they gave notice or some other indication of resigning in the future and the resignation they were to give didnt actually happen.
Yes, all the other ISs follow europe (and Japan), because they are the regions that ITs hold out for. No ones, holding onto an offer for a school in China because they might get an offer from Kuwait. Its delusional to think otherwise
Thanks for agreeing with me. Which is what likely happened here, the teacher indicated they would be leaving but then didnt actually resign. Yes a letter of resignation is binding, the issue is they didnt resign in the middle of the year, they gave notice or some other indication of resigning in the future and the resignation they were to give didnt actually happen.
Yes, all the other ISs follow europe (and Japan), because they are the regions that ITs hold out for. No ones, holding onto an offer for a school in China because they might get an offer from Kuwait. Its delusional to think otherwise
-
homeandaway
- Posts: 39
- Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2011 3:40 am
Well, as I keep saying, and have to agree with Walter on this one, ANY resignation letter is binding, whether it comes in December or comes in April. Schools have two choices. They can either demand early notice and then fill the position, OR they recruit, making it clear that the position is tentative and a vacancy is dependent on the teacher resigning by said date. But of course they won't do that. For the most part, international schools are selfish institutions. I have found the so-called better schools to be among the worst. Some of the more famed schools in SE Asia are among the most self-centred. And yes, I have worked at them. The system will always work like that because schools can continue to play stupid games with applicants, keeping people on hold and then casually telling them there is no job. This is also the reason why schools will continue to have staff leave them in the lurch either before they are due t start or mid-contract. There is no incentive to be loyal to an international school. they are entirely egotistical, selfish enterprises who would give no more thought to screwing someone over for money than they would to killing a fly. Happy to be out of the circus
Repeat
This topic has come down to a word choice, you cant call a resignation something else to avoid the legal requirements regarding resignations. You cant call a resignation a "notice" or something else and then say the law doesnt apply, because we give it a different name.
As I keep writing the intent/notice/etc given in the middle of the year is not a resignation. If it was teachers wouldnt give any indication at all, until they were required under German law. German labor law prohibits employers from requiring resignations earlier then a set time frame. The schools cant demand earlier notices.
I agree that schools should be upfront and very clear about tentative positions, but they wont do that, because any teacher the school would be interested in hiring in the first place isnt going to commit themselves to a school, and terminate their job search on a "maybe".
As I keep writing the intent/notice/etc given in the middle of the year is not a resignation. If it was teachers wouldnt give any indication at all, until they were required under German law. German labor law prohibits employers from requiring resignations earlier then a set time frame. The schools cant demand earlier notices.
I agree that schools should be upfront and very clear about tentative positions, but they wont do that, because any teacher the school would be interested in hiring in the first place isnt going to commit themselves to a school, and terminate their job search on a "maybe".
This thread has gone from a rant to speculating on the reason for the breech of contract to downright certainty that a teacher who was going to resign did not. It seems important to remember that no one actually knows the reason why the OP was dismissed (although, given the self-important Web site, it was prescient of the school to do so--but then, I'm just speculating).
-
homeandaway
- Posts: 39
- Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2011 3:40 am
[quote="David Getling"]
Oh well, another day, another troll. I'm curious about what it is that drives people like you and Sevarem to gratuitously insult people. Though, so I'm told, the theory is that very insecure people do this in the hope that they might be able to demean others, and thus improve their own relative position.
By the way, old sport, do try and research your facts. The "pretty much every school" is way off the mark - as are others' comments implying that I've ducked out of contracts early (NEVER), or been pushed out (with ONE exception). But then, trolls seldom let the truth stop them putting the boot in, do they?
[/i][/quote]
Mate, sorry. I have been on your side as BIS has been totally unethical, but that website of yours? Come on fella! It is the most juvenile thing I have seen an adult ever post. You do seem to have a reasonably good CV though and the fact that you seem to like Germany means that BIS has missed out on an experienced teacher who would have settled in for the long haul. But please, stop with the 'another day, another troll' story. A person is not a troll because they disagree with you!
Oh well, another day, another troll. I'm curious about what it is that drives people like you and Sevarem to gratuitously insult people. Though, so I'm told, the theory is that very insecure people do this in the hope that they might be able to demean others, and thus improve their own relative position.
By the way, old sport, do try and research your facts. The "pretty much every school" is way off the mark - as are others' comments implying that I've ducked out of contracts early (NEVER), or been pushed out (with ONE exception). But then, trolls seldom let the truth stop them putting the boot in, do they?
[/i][/quote]
Mate, sorry. I have been on your side as BIS has been totally unethical, but that website of yours? Come on fella! It is the most juvenile thing I have seen an adult ever post. You do seem to have a reasonably good CV though and the fact that you seem to like Germany means that BIS has missed out on an experienced teacher who would have settled in for the long haul. But please, stop with the 'another day, another troll' story. A person is not a troll because they disagree with you!
-
lifeisnotsobad
- Posts: 133
- Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 3:37 pm
@ Higgsboson...I repeat my message to you. You use the existence of unscrupulous schools as an excuse. You have made it clear that you are happy to lie and cheat, but say you do so because there are liars and cheats in the world. Sorry, but you are simply a liar and a cheat and in your last email you have also made it very clear that you have no qualms about ensuring that your students pay the price for your actions.