New subscriber: why is this website so negative???
New subscriber: why is this website so negative???
I don't want to come off ignorant or as a know it all because neither is a trait that I ascribe to, but since visiting this site I have begun questioning whether international teaching is all it is cracked up to be. Now, maybe it is the fact that this site offers real advice that no other sites do offer, but I swear I cannot find a consistently positive thread in this entire website. I know that everyone experiences things differently, but all this negativity does not put a good face on international schools. Why is it the case? What is going on here? I am sure there are other posts on this. Can anyone give me any quality feedback? Thanks
Good observation. This site thrives on negativity. Just look at the home page. There are 2 warnings about countries - okay fair enough - but nothing about "top/excellent" schools. Maybe a "Top Ten List" of good schools and the same for bad - based on reviews - would be appropriate. Of course I don't even think there are 10 schools who have gotten more than 1 review that have all positive posts so it would be like a "Top 1 or 2". I doubt you'd see it. Positive does not sell. The best a person can do is to try and give your opinion, whether it's good or bad, and hope that someone sees through the negativity. If I saw this site before going into international teaching, I would have never left home. My experience has been awesome even though my school has gotten slammed in the past. What needs to be realized is that there are people who are unhappy, and they are unhappy no matter where they are. Even though it is a small percent, they are very, very vocal. People who are happy usually don't log in and start shouting about how great everything is. The complainers don't hesitate to tell the whole world about how messed up everyone else is.
Now there are some legitimate concerns/gripes, but I sure can't tell by reading the reviews. This website gets more subscribers the more nasty things get. Let's face it, people like to read about bad things happening whether fiction or nonfiction. On the homepage it says, "Who wrote these reviews?" The answer is you honestly don't know and they don't know. The site also has no problem "airing" complaints from unknown people and they make no effort to verify the information. Yet people on this site complain when administrators blackball someone. For the life of me I don't see the difference between an administrator badmouthing someone who left and a teacher badmouthing an administrator on a public forum. But for a "complainer" none of that matters because everyone else is messed up anyway. The ironic part of this whole thing is that the site is crying wolf so much that it is starting to become a joke. Some of the forums have really good information - like the one about job fairs and some others about housing and travel, but look at how many pages go on and on about ENS. Wow, let's beat a dead horse! I know at my school there has been talk about a lawsuit because the site doesn't follow its own rules about publicly slamming someone. Now I don't know how far they will go since we are overseas, but someday someone will push it. It's not about truth, it's about publishing negativity for more subscribers. If it were about truth, there would be some sort of verification, and untruthful posts would be taken down. They haven't and they won't.
You know why....
Now there are some legitimate concerns/gripes, but I sure can't tell by reading the reviews. This website gets more subscribers the more nasty things get. Let's face it, people like to read about bad things happening whether fiction or nonfiction. On the homepage it says, "Who wrote these reviews?" The answer is you honestly don't know and they don't know. The site also has no problem "airing" complaints from unknown people and they make no effort to verify the information. Yet people on this site complain when administrators blackball someone. For the life of me I don't see the difference between an administrator badmouthing someone who left and a teacher badmouthing an administrator on a public forum. But for a "complainer" none of that matters because everyone else is messed up anyway. The ironic part of this whole thing is that the site is crying wolf so much that it is starting to become a joke. Some of the forums have really good information - like the one about job fairs and some others about housing and travel, but look at how many pages go on and on about ENS. Wow, let's beat a dead horse! I know at my school there has been talk about a lawsuit because the site doesn't follow its own rules about publicly slamming someone. Now I don't know how far they will go since we are overseas, but someday someone will push it. It's not about truth, it's about publishing negativity for more subscribers. If it were about truth, there would be some sort of verification, and untruthful posts would be taken down. They haven't and they won't.
You know why....
Hey Specialed
Hey Specialed,
Are you finished??? :? You sound just like the typical "complainer" you claim to disdain?? :lol:
The bottom line is that International Schools Review will always attract some people with an ax to grind (kind of like the PTA at most schools), however, I think most people have enough intelligence to gather information from MULTIPLE sources before accepting a position abroad. ISR is just one source of information, although a valuable source that gives a VOICE to people who formerly did not have a platform.
I say get over it! If you don't like it here, you're free to not come here. Go hang out on TIEonline with the "Old Boy's Club" of international administrators who are obviously threatened by ISR. The fact is that if their wasn't a need for ISR, it wouldn't exist.
Have a nice day! :wink:
Are you finished??? :? You sound just like the typical "complainer" you claim to disdain?? :lol:
The bottom line is that International Schools Review will always attract some people with an ax to grind (kind of like the PTA at most schools), however, I think most people have enough intelligence to gather information from MULTIPLE sources before accepting a position abroad. ISR is just one source of information, although a valuable source that gives a VOICE to people who formerly did not have a platform.
I say get over it! If you don't like it here, you're free to not come here. Go hang out on TIEonline with the "Old Boy's Club" of international administrators who are obviously threatened by ISR. The fact is that if their wasn't a need for ISR, it wouldn't exist.
Have a nice day! :wink:
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TexianTravel
- Posts: 44
- Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2006 11:35 pm
- Location: Egypt
I am curious as to how the site would verify the information, as SpecialEd suggests. I am sure it is my ignorance, but how would an independent organization such as this one investigate multiple schools around the world?
Call up the school and ask? Does the site have the resources to make that many calls around the world? And if ISR called up and said, "We've had a complaint about your school, would you care to respond?" what do you think they would get? And when do they call? At each complaint? Every five complaints?
If they call directly after a complaint has posted, wouldn't that be giving a clue as to the person's identity? The site is anonymous because everyone KNOWS the schools engage in reprisals. I understand that some of the schools check ISR, but there still is still the possibility that the poster can be long gone by the time the school reads the post. Of course, if any poster is smart, they won't post UNTIL they are gone.
As someone who was unfairly targeted by a school, to the point that they FORGED documents to try and cause me a problem, I can tell you that anonymity is very important. Should I have kept quiet and not warned others about the lack of ethics? If ISR called the school and asked, "Do you engage in felonious behavior if you feel it is in your interests?" do you think they would have gotten an honest answer?
I recognize the legitimacy of the original question, and the truth in some of Specialed's response. But I truly am curious as to what s/he thinks ISR should do.
Call up the school and ask? Does the site have the resources to make that many calls around the world? And if ISR called up and said, "We've had a complaint about your school, would you care to respond?" what do you think they would get? And when do they call? At each complaint? Every five complaints?
If they call directly after a complaint has posted, wouldn't that be giving a clue as to the person's identity? The site is anonymous because everyone KNOWS the schools engage in reprisals. I understand that some of the schools check ISR, but there still is still the possibility that the poster can be long gone by the time the school reads the post. Of course, if any poster is smart, they won't post UNTIL they are gone.
As someone who was unfairly targeted by a school, to the point that they FORGED documents to try and cause me a problem, I can tell you that anonymity is very important. Should I have kept quiet and not warned others about the lack of ethics? If ISR called the school and asked, "Do you engage in felonious behavior if you feel it is in your interests?" do you think they would have gotten an honest answer?
I recognize the legitimacy of the original question, and the truth in some of Specialed's response. But I truly am curious as to what s/he thinks ISR should do.
The previous posts make my point. 2 negative posts in minutes. An ISR record! Thank you. This website loves negativity, and as a result it starts to lose its relevance. I would love to have a site with reliable information about schools. That would be awesome! It's not because there is so much negativity. If you post positive here, you are not welcome. I don't doubt there are people with issues, but with so many negative reviews, I can't sort it out. I guess I must just be one of the stupid ones.
Oh well, ignorance is bliss I guess.
Oh well, ignorance is bliss I guess.
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Traveller1
- Posts: 93
- Joined: Sat Dec 02, 2006 11:18 pm
It seems to me that there are largely 2 or 3 major problem areas in international education and most of the posts on this BB relate to those problem areas.
1] Many private/bilingual schools owned by a rich/powerful local who has decided that a private school employing English speaking teachers from the first world seems to be one of the biggest problem areas. A number of schools from Kuwait and the Mid. East seem to appear regularly on ISR, Mexico and S. America also get a hearing and Thailand and the Far East are also in the news. The problems here often arise out of intercultural misunderstandings. The owners often don't understand what they're getting when they employ foreigners and the foreign teachers find out that a school that claims to follow the English National Curriculum isn't an English school at all. Although the intercultural area is a minefield, there are many teachers who love this environment and learn effective survival strategies to cope with the uncertainties of life in 'interesting places'.
2] Then there are the school owners and managers, who are either downright dishonest or have no interest in education, they're in it just for the money. Often people wanting to move into international education end up at schools in the above two groups. The reason they do so is because the upper echelon international schools require two or more years international teaching experience, unless you're an IT network specialist or you teach High School Maths or Chemistry. So the newbies who accept jobs at these schools don't realise what they're letting themselves in for. A recipe for disaster.
3] And finally, school heads or managers who are incompetent, inexperienced, vindictive or are just promoted above their ability level. Many of these nightmares seem to recycle from one school to another going from one continent to another leaving a trail of burned, unhappy teachers behind them.
There are lots and lots of really good international schools out there, well managed, who look after their staff, have good benefits, pay well, etc. etc. However they are difficult to get into, precisely because they are good. Staff turnover at these schools is often very low, with long queues at job fairs for a handful of openings. Their administrators are often on the ball, have good management and leadership skills and the staff are generally very happy.
If all international schools and their administrators were like this ISR wouldn't exist. But they aren't and it does.
1] Many private/bilingual schools owned by a rich/powerful local who has decided that a private school employing English speaking teachers from the first world seems to be one of the biggest problem areas. A number of schools from Kuwait and the Mid. East seem to appear regularly on ISR, Mexico and S. America also get a hearing and Thailand and the Far East are also in the news. The problems here often arise out of intercultural misunderstandings. The owners often don't understand what they're getting when they employ foreigners and the foreign teachers find out that a school that claims to follow the English National Curriculum isn't an English school at all. Although the intercultural area is a minefield, there are many teachers who love this environment and learn effective survival strategies to cope with the uncertainties of life in 'interesting places'.
2] Then there are the school owners and managers, who are either downright dishonest or have no interest in education, they're in it just for the money. Often people wanting to move into international education end up at schools in the above two groups. The reason they do so is because the upper echelon international schools require two or more years international teaching experience, unless you're an IT network specialist or you teach High School Maths or Chemistry. So the newbies who accept jobs at these schools don't realise what they're letting themselves in for. A recipe for disaster.
3] And finally, school heads or managers who are incompetent, inexperienced, vindictive or are just promoted above their ability level. Many of these nightmares seem to recycle from one school to another going from one continent to another leaving a trail of burned, unhappy teachers behind them.
There are lots and lots of really good international schools out there, well managed, who look after their staff, have good benefits, pay well, etc. etc. However they are difficult to get into, precisely because they are good. Staff turnover at these schools is often very low, with long queues at job fairs for a handful of openings. Their administrators are often on the ball, have good management and leadership skills and the staff are generally very happy.
If all international schools and their administrators were like this ISR wouldn't exist. But they aren't and it does.
Thanks for your guys input I appreciate it. However, this then brings me to another question.
For a newbie like me (looking to get my first international teaching position next year 09-10) traveller1 makes it seem that you just have to take your first assignment and do your best with it because regardless of everything else your going to get stuck in a cruddy situation.
Can this really be the truth? Call me ignorant, but with the amount of international schools there are how can so many of them be so bad/corrupt/mismanaged etc????? I mean a lot of the discussion on here makes me feel that my underfunded and violent East Oakland Public school isn't so bad after all.
Someone please tell me I am wrong.
For a newbie like me (looking to get my first international teaching position next year 09-10) traveller1 makes it seem that you just have to take your first assignment and do your best with it because regardless of everything else your going to get stuck in a cruddy situation.
Can this really be the truth? Call me ignorant, but with the amount of international schools there are how can so many of them be so bad/corrupt/mismanaged etc????? I mean a lot of the discussion on here makes me feel that my underfunded and violent East Oakland Public school isn't so bad after all.
Someone please tell me I am wrong.
There are positive comments
I'm admit many comments come down on the negative side. Maybe this is one of the few forums for teachers to vent. On the other hand, do a search for 'good' and 'positive'. I came up with 10-12 postings on good and excellent schools. This posts included lists and detailed comments on what made the schools good.
People who have a bad experience are more motivated to post.
Search for comments on JIS, SAS or Shanghai American. These schools alone have some fantastic descriptions. In fact early today someone commented on Laos being a great place for kids.
Of course you have to take your assignment and make the most of it. Everyone does. No place is perfect. That is a trait of an international educator.
The comment about there being more proprietary schools, especially in the middle east rings true though. 30 years ago you wouldn't have those schools to complain about.
People who have a bad experience are more motivated to post.
Search for comments on JIS, SAS or Shanghai American. These schools alone have some fantastic descriptions. In fact early today someone commented on Laos being a great place for kids.
Of course you have to take your assignment and make the most of it. Everyone does. No place is perfect. That is a trait of an international educator.
The comment about there being more proprietary schools, especially in the middle east rings true though. 30 years ago you wouldn't have those schools to complain about.
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interteach
- Posts: 215
- Joined: Wed Nov 29, 2006 2:25 pm
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fran
Is Forrest Broman from TIE this stuff
Given the recent articles in TIE www.tieonline.com about International Schools Review, I would not be surprised if TIE and the old boys club have decided to start this thread. Anyone who blindly supports directors who have set up their own little kingdoms, ignoring ethical conduct and accountability need to be exposed and avoided. Maybe some of you have been lucky enough to land in reputable schools but not all schools are on the up-and-up. My current school is a for-profit school. We are treated as dispensable commodities in a business for profit, at the cost of all else. As teaches we feel compelled to let others know. I don't think there would be so many negative reviews here if there weren't so many crappy schools. And after seeing that the TIE group is so down on ISR and so supportive of their high paying clients I'm not so sure I want anything to do with them anymore. They know what's going on at these schools and year after year are happy to send us all off to be abused and taken advantage of. :idea: With out ISR we would have nothing of any value to work with and these unethical people could just quietly continue to use us.
Re: Is Forrest Broman from TIE this stuff
[quote="fran"]With out ISR we would have nothing of any value to work with and these unethical people could just quietly continue to use us.[/quote]
Well said, Fran! The only thing that TIE Online cares about is maintaining the status quo at any cost. Period. Many schools have pretty sweet rackets going and instead of trying to come up with solutions, TIE Online and even organizations such as ISS and Search prefer to bury their heads in the sand.
I'd like to challenge TIEONLINE- Instead of complaining that ISR is "not fair" why don't you come up with some reasonable solutions?? The fact of the matter is this recruiting season had more vacancies than ever before with a static pool of candidates. Unless the agencies stop enabling the rotten schools, there will always be a legitimate need for a website like ISR.
Well said, Fran! The only thing that TIE Online cares about is maintaining the status quo at any cost. Period. Many schools have pretty sweet rackets going and instead of trying to come up with solutions, TIE Online and even organizations such as ISS and Search prefer to bury their heads in the sand.
I'd like to challenge TIEONLINE- Instead of complaining that ISR is "not fair" why don't you come up with some reasonable solutions?? The fact of the matter is this recruiting season had more vacancies than ever before with a static pool of candidates. Unless the agencies stop enabling the rotten schools, there will always be a legitimate need for a website like ISR.
I love how some people put out the idea that if you post something positive, well you must be part of the administration and hence you are part of a conspiracy. Take off the aluminum hat (they really aren't sending out signals to your brain that a hat will stop) and let's be reasonable. There are bad schools, there are bad administrators, and I'll get slammed for this, there are bad teachers. There are also great teachers, admin, and schools too! I truly hope you conspiracy people are not international teaching because that means you must be part of the conspiracy or you are in it just to complain. If international teaching is so bad, post your comments and get out for goodness sake. Life is too short to live a miserable life!
I am suggesting that as a group we really look at our reviews. If they are all negative, isn't that like crying wolf? Soon no one will believe them. When someone from back home asks me, I tell them to be very careful of the reviews, you don't know who wrote them and what their agenda is.
I am not, nor have I ever said that people don't have legitimately bad experiences at school. However, I don't like the use of names very much. How would you like an administrator coming online and posting about bad teachers (with no verification). With no verification, and I don't know how you would do it, I think the reviews should be more civil. You can find out ways to say you had a negative experience without naming other people, while not naming yourself, and slamming someone. The site doesn't even follow their own guidelines about no personal attacks.
Is the original poster right? According to a majority of the posts, teaching overseas is awful. I guess I am lucky to work with truly amazing people who are friendly and will help each other out. It certainly isn't perfect, and I don't agree with every decision, but I can respect other people's views and still work with them.
I am suggesting that as a group we really look at our reviews. If they are all negative, isn't that like crying wolf? Soon no one will believe them. When someone from back home asks me, I tell them to be very careful of the reviews, you don't know who wrote them and what their agenda is.
I am not, nor have I ever said that people don't have legitimately bad experiences at school. However, I don't like the use of names very much. How would you like an administrator coming online and posting about bad teachers (with no verification). With no verification, and I don't know how you would do it, I think the reviews should be more civil. You can find out ways to say you had a negative experience without naming other people, while not naming yourself, and slamming someone. The site doesn't even follow their own guidelines about no personal attacks.
Is the original poster right? According to a majority of the posts, teaching overseas is awful. I guess I am lucky to work with truly amazing people who are friendly and will help each other out. It certainly isn't perfect, and I don't agree with every decision, but I can respect other people's views and still work with them.
they aren't all bad...
I think human nature is such that people are more likely to make the effort to write something when they are unhappy - it is a form of revenge after all.
Having said that though I don't think all the reviews are negative. Check out WAB (China) for example. A load of glowing reviews.
My school has some pretty negative reviews. But I have written my own to combat that. If other people who think their school is getting a bad rap do the same the site will balance out. The honest truth though is that most people won't bother.
I think part of it comes down to intelligence and a bit of critical literacy on the part of the reader. The school I'm moving too next year has only one review and it isn't particularly flattering. But, reading between the lines I thought that the person's major problems were personality clashes with those in charge. No complaints about housing, money, contracts not being honoured etc, it was all about their dislike of the management style and the fact they felt unfairly treated. I asked questions at interview and researched the school in some other places and decided that it will be a great school for me. If after I've been there a while I decide it is a good place to work then I will certainly come back and write a review to balance out the other one.
No body is forced to read the reviews if they don't want the information.
Having said that though I don't think all the reviews are negative. Check out WAB (China) for example. A load of glowing reviews.
My school has some pretty negative reviews. But I have written my own to combat that. If other people who think their school is getting a bad rap do the same the site will balance out. The honest truth though is that most people won't bother.
I think part of it comes down to intelligence and a bit of critical literacy on the part of the reader. The school I'm moving too next year has only one review and it isn't particularly flattering. But, reading between the lines I thought that the person's major problems were personality clashes with those in charge. No complaints about housing, money, contracts not being honoured etc, it was all about their dislike of the management style and the fact they felt unfairly treated. I asked questions at interview and researched the school in some other places and decided that it will be a great school for me. If after I've been there a while I decide it is a good place to work then I will certainly come back and write a review to balance out the other one.
No body is forced to read the reviews if they don't want the information.
a public forum
What I like about this forum, it's public. Everyone gets to read comments about schools both positive and negative and a person can react if they think what has been said is not true. Unlike what happens to teachers, Search etc can ban a teacher without a public forum.
I love International School Review, I would never accept a position without reading it.
I love International School Review, I would never accept a position without reading it.
Excellent points ptf. I too wrote a review of my school and I tried to be realistic about the good and bad. I do wonder though, if most people could "read between the lines" as you say. Honestly I'm not sure that I would pick up on the little details that I should and read between the lines. I really love the idea of being able to see reviews of schools, but I would love to see a more balanced set of reviews. Maybe there could be some sort of advertising/emailing to the schools asking people to post their comments, both good and bad. Maybe asking people to list what is good about the school on the review and what is bad. Maybe something at the job fairs asking people to post. I would also like to see something like 5 things you like about the school and 5 things you don't like. This might help me make a decision when someone has nothing at all good to say about their experience. Above all, I would like to see the site enforce its "No personal attacks" policy. We are all college graduates an can write. We can get our point across without resorting to attacks and naming names. A simple, "My director had communication issues with the staff" is much better than, "Mr. Smith is a loser, hates everybody, is sexist, and couldn't talk his way out of a wet paper bag!"