I think "overreact" is the operative word here. Ms. Philips had a court case pending, and so she was banned from traveling, as anyone else would be - including Kuwaitis themselves.
I've seen all kinds of breathless articles and letters printed in the local press - and at ISR - describing her as being "detained", demanding her release, alluding to rumors about sending in the American troops to get her out, and fearing for her safety, even after she's left the GCC!
There's no evidence of any threat to her safety, and anyone who knows Kuwait knows that's ridiculous - especially now that she's out of the GCC. Does she really expect people to believe that the father is going to send thugs to beat her up, or assassins to kill her? Please...
Obviously, I don't know what really happened in this incident, but keep in mind that we're only hearing one side of the story. From the way she has exaggerated and distorted things, I wouldn't be shocked to discover that her side isn't completely accurate.
She was never detained; she simply was prevented from leaving the country until the case was resolved, so she had to stay in Kuwait for part of the summer (like about 2 million of the rest of us). I assume that other countries have procedures like that, too.
In her last letter, she feigns surprise that this could have reached the level of the Prime Minister. Who is she kidding? Kuwait is a very small country; the population is something over 2 million, only 1 million of who are Kuwaitis. It's basically one metropolitan area, and this woman - with the help of ISR - has had her story on the fromt page of the newspaper, in big red headlines. She's talked about contacting the Amir and the Ministry of Interior, so why would she be surprised that the Prime Minister (who's under the Amir and chairs the Cabinet) had heard about it?
The one thing I will agree with is that the U.S. Embassy is completely useless. Anyone who comes here thinking that its mission is to serve American citizens will be sorely disappointed. That's at the bottom of their list of priorities; their efforts go into helping American companies get contracts, taking care of Kuwaiti citizens, and pushing their propaganda about democracy, etc.
Anyway... For those of you who claim to have been here and seen so many drug problems and abortions, I'm sure it wasn't as bad as you say, but let me explain something to you. The students who attend the British and American schools (and Bayan Bilingual, which is known for being very westernized) are not representative of Kuwaiti students. Most Kuwaitis (including me) wouldn't dream of putting their children in those schools, because they don't adhere to Islamic or Kuwaiti cultural standards. As is readily apparent on this forum, many of the teachers have disdain for Kuwaitis and see them - their culture and religion - as backwards. So the students there are confused, because they're trying to be Western, not understanding the Westerners will never accept them anyway.
For those of you who show such contempt for Kuwait, PLEASE don't come here. (Kathryn, for example, seems surprised that she would be expected to follow the laws of the country - presumably, she thinks she shouldn't have to, since she's a Westerner? It's true that many Westerners do ignore the laws, about alcohol, for example, but they shouldn't complain if they're ever caught.) If you're coming with a colonialist attitude, if you think that you own the country because your country "liberated" Kuwait 17 years ago, if you're going to do nothing but complain about how uncivilized the natives are, if you're not going to make any attempt to get to know Arabs and learn their language... then stay home or go somewhere else.
If you're interesting in traveling, interested in learning about another culture, interested in teaching, then you're very welcome. Certainly there are problems in Kuwait, but many people find it a good environment, especially for raising children. And don't believe the people who say that Western teachers being arrested is a normal thing in Kuwait; that's absurd. (Keep in mind that Katherine Philips wasn't arrested.) Westerners are at the top of the pecking order and are treated very well, which is why I think there's more to this story than we've been told.
Al-Bayan Bilingual School
"I suspect that a lot of this conflict arose from the fact that the administrator in question is a female, and the powerful Kuwaiti father is punishing her for what he perceives as the humiliation of his adolescent son being disciplined by a woman. Am I way off here?"
Yes, you are way off. Just to cite one example, the Minister of Education is a woman, and there are many highly-educated (at government expense), prominent, powerful women at senior levels in government and the private sector. That's a stereotype I had when I first came here, which was completely wrong.
Yes, you are way off. Just to cite one example, the Minister of Education is a woman, and there are many highly-educated (at government expense), prominent, powerful women at senior levels in government and the private sector. That's a stereotype I had when I first came here, which was completely wrong.
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aasoudesuka
- Posts: 11
- Joined: Sat Feb 17, 2007 2:02 am
[quote="meinq8"]"Yes, you are way off. ... That's a stereotype I had when I first came here, which was completely wrong.[/quote]
You had that stereotype when you first came here, but in your last post you said, "Most Kuwaitis (including me) wouldn't dream of putting their children in those schools, because they don't adhere to Islamic or Kuwaiti cultural standards."
I don't get it... you had stereotypes when you first came to Kuwait, but you are Kuwaiti yourself?
By the way, when you tell me that Kuwaitis wouldn't dream of putting their children in "those schools" because they don't adhere to Islamic or Kuwaiti cultural standards, you are enforcing another (hopefully false) stereotype of rigid Islamic insularity and fundamentalist thinking. You might as well call us dogs and infidels.
You had that stereotype when you first came here, but in your last post you said, "Most Kuwaitis (including me) wouldn't dream of putting their children in those schools, because they don't adhere to Islamic or Kuwaiti cultural standards."
I don't get it... you had stereotypes when you first came to Kuwait, but you are Kuwaiti yourself?
By the way, when you tell me that Kuwaitis wouldn't dream of putting their children in "those schools" because they don't adhere to Islamic or Kuwaiti cultural standards, you are enforcing another (hopefully false) stereotype of rigid Islamic insularity and fundamentalist thinking. You might as well call us dogs and infidels.
While I agree with meinq8 that peolpe who have a disdain for Kuwait shouldn't come here and shouldn't complain if they break our laws and get caught, I disagree that most Kuwaitis wouldn't send their kids to 'these schools'. I
Last edited by miski on Thu Jul 12, 2007 7:00 am, edited 1 time in total.
[quote="da3boyzs"]Ok this is for Minski. To begin with it is wrong to hold Katherine Phillips period! If you were in America you would not be held or have a travel ban put on you. You would follow due process with your county school system. That school system would decide whether or not the teacher acted in an incorrect manner, not the PARENT.
I lived in Kuwait for 15 years and my family and I loved the wild, wild east. That is exactly what it is. Democracy is not for everyone only for 1st degree Kuwaities. You need to get off the cross Minski, your views are very arrogant and I'm a person who can speak of first hand experiences of the short comings of Kuwait. Yes the US has its many, many problems but don't make it sound like Kuwait doesn't. May I remind you that your young teens are 1 confused because of the oppressed ways. Proof go to facebook, or my space,I have seen my former students pages. Your young are confused and yes so are American teens in some way but we don't hide it, it's out there for every one to see. We don't send our pregnant teens to Cyprus for abortions. My husband has work with many people who have lost there sons to heroin. Oh yeah, let's remember I have never seen such a drug problem as in Kuwait. So get off your high horse.[/quote]
I'm not on a high horse, nor on a camel- in part of the UK ( NI ) they 'send their young teens' to the mainland for abortions- so the west hasn't got the monopoly on being pro-active........
I was once 'held' in America, at the Nogales border , by an irate guard who informed me that he was 'going to send me right back wher I came from' ( the UK) because I didn't have a visa to re enter the USA.... even tho I didn't ( as a UK citizen) actually need one.
So you're not in Kuwait anymore? Al humdillah.
I lived in Kuwait for 15 years and my family and I loved the wild, wild east. That is exactly what it is. Democracy is not for everyone only for 1st degree Kuwaities. You need to get off the cross Minski, your views are very arrogant and I'm a person who can speak of first hand experiences of the short comings of Kuwait. Yes the US has its many, many problems but don't make it sound like Kuwait doesn't. May I remind you that your young teens are 1 confused because of the oppressed ways. Proof go to facebook, or my space,I have seen my former students pages. Your young are confused and yes so are American teens in some way but we don't hide it, it's out there for every one to see. We don't send our pregnant teens to Cyprus for abortions. My husband has work with many people who have lost there sons to heroin. Oh yeah, let's remember I have never seen such a drug problem as in Kuwait. So get off your high horse.[/quote]
I'm not on a high horse, nor on a camel- in part of the UK ( NI ) they 'send their young teens' to the mainland for abortions- so the west hasn't got the monopoly on being pro-active........
I was once 'held' in America, at the Nogales border , by an irate guard who informed me that he was 'going to send me right back wher I came from' ( the UK) because I didn't have a visa to re enter the USA.... even tho I didn't ( as a UK citizen) actually need one.
So you're not in Kuwait anymore? Al humdillah.
aasoudesuka: "By the way, when you tell me that Kuwaitis wouldn't dream of putting their children in "those schools" because they don't adhere to Islamic or Kuwaiti cultural standards, you are enforcing another (hopefully false) stereotype of rigid Islamic insularity and fundamentalist thinking. You might as well call us dogs and infidels."
Wow... I said that these aren't Islamic-oriented schools, and you say I'm calling you a dog or an infidel? Quite a leap, isn't it? You're not teaching here, too, are you? (Or in any Muslim country? I hope not.)
I said that MOST Kuwaitis wouldn't put their children in those schools. Of course, SOME Kuwaitis do, but it's a small percentage of all the Kuwaitis.
The fact is that they aren't Islamic. Is anyone seriously going to argue that? They celebrate Halloween, Christmas, and various other holidays, the boys and girls mix together, they rarely if ever hire teachers who wear hijab, and their schedule - unlike all the other schools in Kuwait - is based on the calendar of the Western teachers, with a long break at Christmas/New Year's, etc.
Another drawback is that many of the Kuwaiti students come out of those schools with weak skills in Arabic language, which some parents don't mind, but most wouldn't want. Bayan used to be pretty much the only bilingual school, but there are many others now, so parents who want their children to learn English, but don't want the Western environment, have a lot of choices now.
Generally speaking, it's a small subset of Kuwaitis who enroll their children in the American and British schools (and Bayan), and they're not representative. They're from the wealthier sections of society, because the schools are extremely expensive, and they usually aren't the more religious families. Of course, there are exceptions, but they are exceptions.
I'm not sure why this is considered offensive; it's a fact. Teachers on forums like this are well aware of, and concerned about, which schools are Islamic, I'm sure.
Wow... I said that these aren't Islamic-oriented schools, and you say I'm calling you a dog or an infidel? Quite a leap, isn't it? You're not teaching here, too, are you? (Or in any Muslim country? I hope not.)
I said that MOST Kuwaitis wouldn't put their children in those schools. Of course, SOME Kuwaitis do, but it's a small percentage of all the Kuwaitis.
The fact is that they aren't Islamic. Is anyone seriously going to argue that? They celebrate Halloween, Christmas, and various other holidays, the boys and girls mix together, they rarely if ever hire teachers who wear hijab, and their schedule - unlike all the other schools in Kuwait - is based on the calendar of the Western teachers, with a long break at Christmas/New Year's, etc.
Another drawback is that many of the Kuwaiti students come out of those schools with weak skills in Arabic language, which some parents don't mind, but most wouldn't want. Bayan used to be pretty much the only bilingual school, but there are many others now, so parents who want their children to learn English, but don't want the Western environment, have a lot of choices now.
Generally speaking, it's a small subset of Kuwaitis who enroll their children in the American and British schools (and Bayan), and they're not representative. They're from the wealthier sections of society, because the schools are extremely expensive, and they usually aren't the more religious families. Of course, there are exceptions, but they are exceptions.
I'm not sure why this is considered offensive; it's a fact. Teachers on forums like this are well aware of, and concerned about, which schools are Islamic, I'm sure.
When I wrote "If you were in America you would not be held or have a travel ban put on you. You would follow due process with your county school system. That school system would decide whether or not the teacher acted in an incorrect manner, not the PARENT. " I was referring to a situation at school not a visa problem. Do I feel that Katherine Phillips is in danger? "No" but I do feel it is unfair. I also understand the cultural sensitivity in Kuwait and do not have a problem with Kuwait or its culture. However, I do understand how things are run in Kuwait. Some people come to Kuwait and think that the rules in the states apply in the same type of fairness. Let's face it they don't and maybe if you went Kuwaitie you would understand that. I am an honest, loyal and ethical person but have said and still believe when in Kuwait walk softly and carry a large BAT!!!!!
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aasoudesuka
- Posts: 11
- Joined: Sat Feb 17, 2007 2:02 am
[quote="meinq8"]"You're not teaching here, too, are you? (Or in any Muslim country? I hope not.)[/quote]
No I'm not currently teaching in an Islamic country, but why would that be bad? I expect educated people to accept cultural and religious diversity.
Maybe what you're trying to say is that international schools don't have real relevancy for Kuwaitis because there is too much of a disconnect between Kuwaiti culture (including its dominant religion) and the international model...? Maybe that's true. The wording "they wouldn't dream of it" made me feel that you were insinuating that Kuwaitis would consider westerners and their schools to be decadent. The stereotype of muslims as humorless, judgemental and condemning IS an unfortunate stereotype. My comment that you sounded like you were practically calling us dogs and infidels was an attempt to establish distance between that stereotype (which I hope not to encounter too much wherever I go) and whatever it was you WERE saying... I apologize if you took it as an affront. Indeed I was trying to get you to clarify that you were NOT demonstrating that kind of attitude.
I have a lot of experience teaching in the US, and there are many fundamentalist Christians who eschew secular education. They would probably regard me as ungodly and say that secular education is satanic. I regard that portion of the population as ignorant. I don't despize them, but I just think they've got blinders on. I feel the same way about any community that operates with an attitude of religious-based distrust and intolerance. I can even be comfortable knowing that that element is very strong in a given society - Christian, Islamic, whatever - but if there's no allowance for my distaste of it, then perhaps I should stay away.
No I'm not currently teaching in an Islamic country, but why would that be bad? I expect educated people to accept cultural and religious diversity.
Maybe what you're trying to say is that international schools don't have real relevancy for Kuwaitis because there is too much of a disconnect between Kuwaiti culture (including its dominant religion) and the international model...? Maybe that's true. The wording "they wouldn't dream of it" made me feel that you were insinuating that Kuwaitis would consider westerners and their schools to be decadent. The stereotype of muslims as humorless, judgemental and condemning IS an unfortunate stereotype. My comment that you sounded like you were practically calling us dogs and infidels was an attempt to establish distance between that stereotype (which I hope not to encounter too much wherever I go) and whatever it was you WERE saying... I apologize if you took it as an affront. Indeed I was trying to get you to clarify that you were NOT demonstrating that kind of attitude.
I have a lot of experience teaching in the US, and there are many fundamentalist Christians who eschew secular education. They would probably regard me as ungodly and say that secular education is satanic. I regard that portion of the population as ignorant. I don't despize them, but I just think they've got blinders on. I feel the same way about any community that operates with an attitude of religious-based distrust and intolerance. I can even be comfortable knowing that that element is very strong in a given society - Christian, Islamic, whatever - but if there's no allowance for my distaste of it, then perhaps I should stay away.
meinq8
I agree with you, our schools should put in more of an effort to employ teachers with hijab and definitely the heads of these schools should be , at least, if western then Muslim. It seems the owners don't take this into consideration.
The new minister of education should be making an effort to really check out who our schools are employing. When it says English School / American School then as a fee paying parent I would at least expect to have native speakers. That is often not the case, and where they are native speakers many are not up to the job.
I agree with you, our schools should put in more of an effort to employ teachers with hijab and definitely the heads of these schools should be , at least, if western then Muslim. It seems the owners don't take this into consideration.
The new minister of education should be making an effort to really check out who our schools are employing. When it says English School / American School then as a fee paying parent I would at least expect to have native speakers. That is often not the case, and where they are native speakers many are not up to the job.
Last edited by miski on Thu Jul 12, 2007 7:01 am, edited 1 time in total.
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zackandedie
- Posts: 14
- Joined: Wed Jun 27, 2007 7:00 am
- Location: uae
Yup, Miski, I've known a number of women who sent their CVs to the American or British schools and were called for interviews. Over the phone, they got an enthusiastic response, but when they showed up in person wearing hijab, suddenly there was no interest; sometimes the administration actually asks, "Do you have to wear that?", and if the answer's yes, then their answer is no. Or some schools would hire women wearing hijab, but only in places like the library, where they wouldn't normally be seen by parents and visitors. I remember someone saying that her school's unwritten - but well-known - policy was that a teacher with hijab would only be hired as an absolute last resort; if there was anyone else available, no matter the qualifications, that person would be chosen.
zackandedie, she has left the country, but the things that she said and did were resented by a lot of people and will have a lasting effect. Not to mention some of the things said in these teachers' forums, which were reported in the newspapers. The Ministry of Education already has policies in place, I think, to phase out the hiring of non-citizens in management positions in private schools, and this will only speed that up.
zackandedie, she has left the country, but the things that she said and did were resented by a lot of people and will have a lasting effect. Not to mention some of the things said in these teachers' forums, which were reported in the newspapers. The Ministry of Education already has policies in place, I think, to phase out the hiring of non-citizens in management positions in private schools, and this will only speed that up.
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zackandedie
- Posts: 14
- Joined: Wed Jun 27, 2007 7:00 am
- Location: uae
My main aim in this thread was to raise my views in the american teacher situation in kuwait and i have achieved that. Having come across some of your postings in another forum i can only assume you have serious personal issues. I was born with a brain and i do try to use it in the most sensible way i can.
[quote="zackandedie"]My main aim in this thread was to raise my views in the american teacher situation in kuwait and i have achieved that. Having come across some of your postings in another forum i can only assume you have serious personal issues. I was born with a brain and i do try to use it in the most sensible way i can.[/quote]
Well you can always try ZandE
I think your main aim was to trash Kuwait, its people, its religion and its culture. You tried, you failed, we don't care and incidentally, we are glad you have taken your bigotry and small mindedness to Dubai.Thank God you aren't teaching my kids-another 'enlightened expat' bringing their version of liberty to 'free Kuwait'.
Well you can always try ZandE
I think your main aim was to trash Kuwait, its people, its religion and its culture. You tried, you failed, we don't care and incidentally, we are glad you have taken your bigotry and small mindedness to Dubai.Thank God you aren't teaching my kids-another 'enlightened expat' bringing their version of liberty to 'free Kuwait'.
Last edited by miski on Thu Jul 12, 2007 7:02 am, edited 1 time in total.