Counselor/ fair questions
Counselor/ fair questions
I have 3 years of experience teaching at an international school in Asia. Back in my home country to do school counseling for this academic year( college, career and socio/ emotional, guidance lessons) and want to pursue international again next year. MEd, certified teacher and counselor, have 5 years total experience in education. What are my chances of being invited? Counseling positions in demand ? Should I pursue Search, ISS, Iowa? Will signing up for the first ISS fair increase my chances? Any and all help appreciated!
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overseasvet2
- Posts: 191
- Joined: Wed Jun 08, 2011 10:50 pm
counseling demand
Good college counselors are at premium. If you can demonstrate you can get seniors money and acceptance at good universities, you're golden. My understanding is that the counseling world involves lots of networking so experience will always be valued; however, there seems to be a shortage on the international circuit so if you've got good references, you have a good shot.
Advie
Counselors who can do college advising and career advising were in very high demand last year. The mental health workload of a counselor is very minimal.
I would defiantly go with an agency seeing as you have a broad job search. I normally recommend Search but your at that point in your career where ISS would have real interest. ISS has fewer schools but they are the 1st tier and better schools, without the 2nd tier and 3rd tier clutter.
Fairs greatly increase your chances of an offer, for a variety of reasons. Id shoot for an invite to the Bangkok fair. Though for LESS then fair cost of ISS alone you can pay the Search membership and your first fair is free. You would see many of the same schools but ISS has a smaller more intimate feel to it.
I would defiantly go with an agency seeing as you have a broad job search. I normally recommend Search but your at that point in your career where ISS would have real interest. ISS has fewer schools but they are the 1st tier and better schools, without the 2nd tier and 3rd tier clutter.
Fairs greatly increase your chances of an offer, for a variety of reasons. Id shoot for an invite to the Bangkok fair. Though for LESS then fair cost of ISS alone you can pay the Search membership and your first fair is free. You would see many of the same schools but ISS has a smaller more intimate feel to it.
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eion_padraig
- Posts: 408
- Joined: Sat Dec 11, 2010 8:18 pm
Overseasvet2,
I take it you're not a school counselor or college counselor. Counselors have very little impact on the admissibility of students to university and even less impact on the scholarship/financial aid awarded. Trust me, I worked as an college admission officer for a number of years before switching sides of the desk to work at a high school. At best counselors can direct students and their parents to options that meet their needs, including financial, but it's the student's record that is doing the heavy lifting when it comes to outcomes.
Cindy L., if you are considering high school positions, I would recommend you join one of the professional admission organizations if you haven't already. The different regional Association of College Admission Counseling (Western ACAC, Pacific Northwest ACAC, Rocky Mountain ACAC, Southern ACAC, New England ACAC) have their meetings in the spring, though the most relevant for international and overseas counselors is Overseas ACAC. OACAC (Overseas, not Ohio) meets the second week of July and this year it will be at Marist College in New York. Generally there are free college tours around these conferences. NACAC, the national conference, is in Denver at the start of October. Public school counselors tend to have a hard time getting funding and the time off to attend, but they're worth it both to visit colleges and meeting university admission representatives.
Good luck.
I take it you're not a school counselor or college counselor. Counselors have very little impact on the admissibility of students to university and even less impact on the scholarship/financial aid awarded. Trust me, I worked as an college admission officer for a number of years before switching sides of the desk to work at a high school. At best counselors can direct students and their parents to options that meet their needs, including financial, but it's the student's record that is doing the heavy lifting when it comes to outcomes.
Cindy L., if you are considering high school positions, I would recommend you join one of the professional admission organizations if you haven't already. The different regional Association of College Admission Counseling (Western ACAC, Pacific Northwest ACAC, Rocky Mountain ACAC, Southern ACAC, New England ACAC) have their meetings in the spring, though the most relevant for international and overseas counselors is Overseas ACAC. OACAC (Overseas, not Ohio) meets the second week of July and this year it will be at Marist College in New York. Generally there are free college tours around these conferences. NACAC, the national conference, is in Denver at the start of October. Public school counselors tend to have a hard time getting funding and the time off to attend, but they're worth it both to visit colleges and meeting university admission representatives.
Good luck.
Comment
Thats true in american schools, especially public schools. Its not at the very least the perception at international schools. A guidance counselor who is an alum from an ivy league school would presumptively have an "in" for perspective students.
At the very least a college counselor who knows the ins and outs of admission, enrollment and financial aid in a particular country will be able to assist students with application requirements, test preparation, applications, essays, etc. These are systems that the students who if they arent from that country will likely be very alien to them. In some countries universities invite students to their university based entirely on entrance examination scores.
While a reference letter from the counselor is unlikely to mean very much, having a guide who is intimate with the admission process to help the student navigate the system, is a valuable benefit to the students and parents. These are students whos first language isnt english, and they dont know what an admission officer in the USA is even looking for in an admission essay. They dont know what a FAFSa is or SAR. Do they need to take the TOEFL or IELTS. What financial requirements are there? How do i apply for a visa, will I have to interview at the embassy? What if the school has an alumni locally conduct an interview? These and MANY other questions students and parents have, and adding both the time difference and cultural differences and it only complicates the process more.
At the very least a college counselor who knows the ins and outs of admission, enrollment and financial aid in a particular country will be able to assist students with application requirements, test preparation, applications, essays, etc. These are systems that the students who if they arent from that country will likely be very alien to them. In some countries universities invite students to their university based entirely on entrance examination scores.
While a reference letter from the counselor is unlikely to mean very much, having a guide who is intimate with the admission process to help the student navigate the system, is a valuable benefit to the students and parents. These are students whos first language isnt english, and they dont know what an admission officer in the USA is even looking for in an admission essay. They dont know what a FAFSa is or SAR. Do they need to take the TOEFL or IELTS. What financial requirements are there? How do i apply for a visa, will I have to interview at the embassy? What if the school has an alumni locally conduct an interview? These and MANY other questions students and parents have, and adding both the time difference and cultural differences and it only complicates the process more.
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overseasvet2
- Posts: 191
- Joined: Wed Jun 08, 2011 10:50 pm
thanks Psy Guy
Thanks, Psy Guy, you put this much more eloquently than I. Like it or not, a college counselor in international schools is judged by the acceptances and financial aid that students receive. The person who is most familiar with the system will be able to help students best.
Schools have to educate parents that it's about finding the right school for each student - not everyone is a good fit for Harvard or Yale. No, I've not been a counselor but have seen all of the literature put together by int'l schools touting their college acceptances and heard the discussions about what the schools desire in their HS counselors. The thread was not about the job but in advising the person seeking a job. Cindy deserves to hear straight talk from a variety of sources.
Schools have to educate parents that it's about finding the right school for each student - not everyone is a good fit for Harvard or Yale. No, I've not been a counselor but have seen all of the literature put together by int'l schools touting their college acceptances and heard the discussions about what the schools desire in their HS counselors. The thread was not about the job but in advising the person seeking a job. Cindy deserves to hear straight talk from a variety of sources.
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eion_padraig
- Posts: 408
- Joined: Sat Dec 11, 2010 8:18 pm
Yes, good advising is important Sighguy. However some of your other points I would contest. First, I'd say it's realitively uncommon for public school counselors to be informed and have the time to work with students on an individual basis. They rarely are able to attend professional conferences on admission, and they don't go on college fly in programs to visit college campuses anywhere near as frequently as independent school college counselors. Furthermore, Being an alumnus of a certain institution does not give on an "in" for your students. Even being a former admission officer at a particular university does not give your students an "in", though you would have a great deal of insight into how decisions are made.
Overseasvet2, the issue is that if a school counselor or college counselor is claiming responsibility for gaining or placing a student at any university, then they're taking credit for something they didin't do. On the other hand having experience working with students applying to hyper-selective universities is valuable. That is something a counselor can demonstrate. I agree that being informed about how the process works is key. For instance, being familiar with different countries and their systems of education is another thing one can demonstrate.
In general, heads of schools, board members and recruiters are poorly informed on the process, and this leads to problems for counselors in international schools and US schools (public and independent). We talk about this frequently on listservs, Facebbok groups, and at conferences. I'm addressing them here because what has been written is misinformed, and it may reinforce this perspective with others.
As for the OP, my advice was based more on what might help her in the long term. (I admit to having no experience with international recruiting fairs.) Unfortunately, few school counseling programs in the US do much if anything on helping understand the admission process. For that conferences and visits to college campuses are key. There are some good books about college admission, but there is some awful stuff too.
Overseasvet2, the issue is that if a school counselor or college counselor is claiming responsibility for gaining or placing a student at any university, then they're taking credit for something they didin't do. On the other hand having experience working with students applying to hyper-selective universities is valuable. That is something a counselor can demonstrate. I agree that being informed about how the process works is key. For instance, being familiar with different countries and their systems of education is another thing one can demonstrate.
In general, heads of schools, board members and recruiters are poorly informed on the process, and this leads to problems for counselors in international schools and US schools (public and independent). We talk about this frequently on listservs, Facebbok groups, and at conferences. I'm addressing them here because what has been written is misinformed, and it may reinforce this perspective with others.
As for the OP, my advice was based more on what might help her in the long term. (I admit to having no experience with international recruiting fairs.) Unfortunately, few school counseling programs in the US do much if anything on helping understand the admission process. For that conferences and visits to college campuses are key. There are some good books about college admission, but there is some awful stuff too.
Reply
Your insight is very appropriate in an american public school setting. Simply though, thats at least the perception in an IS.
Parents, and students truly believe that if there is a counselor, or even a teacher who graduated from an elite school or ivy, that a reference from that person will give them an "in" to that school. It doesnt matter if its true or not, its the perception.
I can understand how your campus enrollment at a public high school may be immense based on the number of students. At a vast majority of small or even medium size schools a graduating class is typically pretty small. At those class sizes its very reasonable and expected that you will be working with each and every senior. Ive seen a number of small schools that graduate 6 students. even medium schools may have only 30 or so graduateing students. SAS, arguably the largest IS only had about 250 students in its graduating class, and they have five 11/12 grade counselors.
I was working with a school where a new counselor was approached by a student asking about admission to Harvard. The counselor replied that that was possible, and that they could explore that and other university options. From that moment on all that student and his parents heard was that "he could go to Harvard", nothing else mattered, and the student focused exclusively on that. The student didnt get in, and didnt even make the wait list. The kid was devastated,a nd the parents fuming mad, that this counselor had promised their child would get into Harvard (yes thats not what was really said). Similar issues and results happened with other students, and that counselor was "asked not to return next year" (in exchange for resigning, the school would give the teacher their end of contract bonus/benefits, and a positive reference).
Parents, and students truly believe that if there is a counselor, or even a teacher who graduated from an elite school or ivy, that a reference from that person will give them an "in" to that school. It doesnt matter if its true or not, its the perception.
I can understand how your campus enrollment at a public high school may be immense based on the number of students. At a vast majority of small or even medium size schools a graduating class is typically pretty small. At those class sizes its very reasonable and expected that you will be working with each and every senior. Ive seen a number of small schools that graduate 6 students. even medium schools may have only 30 or so graduateing students. SAS, arguably the largest IS only had about 250 students in its graduating class, and they have five 11/12 grade counselors.
I was working with a school where a new counselor was approached by a student asking about admission to Harvard. The counselor replied that that was possible, and that they could explore that and other university options. From that moment on all that student and his parents heard was that "he could go to Harvard", nothing else mattered, and the student focused exclusively on that. The student didnt get in, and didnt even make the wait list. The kid was devastated,a nd the parents fuming mad, that this counselor had promised their child would get into Harvard (yes thats not what was really said). Similar issues and results happened with other students, and that counselor was "asked not to return next year" (in exchange for resigning, the school would give the teacher their end of contract bonus/benefits, and a positive reference).