How bad is it to cancel a contract after signing it?
How bad is it to cancel a contract after signing it?
What would happen if I signed a contract, and then renege on it because a better offer came up? Is that a huge no no that would get me blacklisted, or would anybody care?
UGH
There is no "Black List".
**Disclaimer** My advice isnt the professional way to go.**
First, Search would care, its a $2500 fee to your associate if you break the contract. If a good enough position comes up though it may be worth it. There is no "Black List", but you can bet the school you break contract with will never hire you again. Its early in the year, and they wont have that hard of a time replacing you, and they really havent expended any money yet on you. Whether or not anyone would care would depend on two things; 1)Whether anyone found out, and 2) What the differences between the two schools are. If the school your bailing on is some 3rd tier school in the middle east somewhere and the new school is a tier 1 school in Japan, people wont "agree" with your choice, but they will "understand". My belief is you only get one go around in life, and who wants to spend it suffering. I dont know what the first job offer you got was, but if the second job offer is significantly better then the first your going to be telling yourself everyday "I could be there instead of here", and thats suffering to me.
Will anyone care??? Well a good number of other posters on this forum will care. Will other admins care, maybe if they find out, but theyre grownups, and wont spend a more then a minute to move on. It wont matter to your resume, because you "ALREADY" have a new job, so no immediate problem with your reputation. It wont even be on your resume, and will be well buried in two years when you have a good reference from the new school you went with. I dont see a lot of "down side", which brings me to the last point.
Is it a no no to you? I mean its your character were talking about. Does your word mean anything? Did that Search speech about your "word being your bond" resonate with you? Personally, I have a whole closet full of character from when I was a kid, from shoveling snow, and raking leaves, to boy scouts, and summer camp. That closet full of character hasnt done me a whole lot of good (the first time was the freshman dance, when I want with a plain girl because i said yes to her first, before the pretty girl i WANTED to go with asked me. My parents made me go with the first girl). So yeah my opinion is that character is just an excuse people tell themselves for sticking with a bad decision. SMART people change their mind when confronted with better options. (Id like to think that had someone told former president Bush that when the Twin towers were attacked, instead of going to war with the Saddam and later the WHOLE middle east over WMD's, someone might have said "OR we can ask them to help us just find the terrorists" there might have been a different journey").
Lastly, dont forget that this is business. What people do in business isnt the always the same thing they would do personally. MANY admins have had to do things they wouldnt choose to do, because they need their jobs too, and have to do what they are told to do as well. Their are plenty of stories on this site about schools that "withdrew their offer or contract".
**Disclaimer** My advice isnt the professional way to go.**
First, Search would care, its a $2500 fee to your associate if you break the contract. If a good enough position comes up though it may be worth it. There is no "Black List", but you can bet the school you break contract with will never hire you again. Its early in the year, and they wont have that hard of a time replacing you, and they really havent expended any money yet on you. Whether or not anyone would care would depend on two things; 1)Whether anyone found out, and 2) What the differences between the two schools are. If the school your bailing on is some 3rd tier school in the middle east somewhere and the new school is a tier 1 school in Japan, people wont "agree" with your choice, but they will "understand". My belief is you only get one go around in life, and who wants to spend it suffering. I dont know what the first job offer you got was, but if the second job offer is significantly better then the first your going to be telling yourself everyday "I could be there instead of here", and thats suffering to me.
Will anyone care??? Well a good number of other posters on this forum will care. Will other admins care, maybe if they find out, but theyre grownups, and wont spend a more then a minute to move on. It wont matter to your resume, because you "ALREADY" have a new job, so no immediate problem with your reputation. It wont even be on your resume, and will be well buried in two years when you have a good reference from the new school you went with. I dont see a lot of "down side", which brings me to the last point.
Is it a no no to you? I mean its your character were talking about. Does your word mean anything? Did that Search speech about your "word being your bond" resonate with you? Personally, I have a whole closet full of character from when I was a kid, from shoveling snow, and raking leaves, to boy scouts, and summer camp. That closet full of character hasnt done me a whole lot of good (the first time was the freshman dance, when I want with a plain girl because i said yes to her first, before the pretty girl i WANTED to go with asked me. My parents made me go with the first girl). So yeah my opinion is that character is just an excuse people tell themselves for sticking with a bad decision. SMART people change their mind when confronted with better options. (Id like to think that had someone told former president Bush that when the Twin towers were attacked, instead of going to war with the Saddam and later the WHOLE middle east over WMD's, someone might have said "OR we can ask them to help us just find the terrorists" there might have been a different journey").
Lastly, dont forget that this is business. What people do in business isnt the always the same thing they would do personally. MANY admins have had to do things they wouldnt choose to do, because they need their jobs too, and have to do what they are told to do as well. Their are plenty of stories on this site about schools that "withdrew their offer or contract".
Thanks for the reassuring pep talk psyguy!
I'm not with Search, but I am with another fair who gave us a scary warning story about this guy who signed two contracts and reneged on another, and both schools found out, and he ended up with no contract. I understand now that there is a clear motive behind this story for the fair organizers.
I haven't had any offers yet, so it's probably futile to even have such worries at the point anyway. I'm sure I'm not the only one feeling stressed with a million thoughts of what ifs running through my mind.
I'm not with Search, but I am with another fair who gave us a scary warning story about this guy who signed two contracts and reneged on another, and both schools found out, and he ended up with no contract. I understand now that there is a clear motive behind this story for the fair organizers.
I haven't had any offers yet, so it's probably futile to even have such worries at the point anyway. I'm sure I'm not the only one feeling stressed with a million thoughts of what ifs running through my mind.
Well
Well of course the fair organizers have a horror story to tell, and Im sure its true, but what they dont tell you is whats called "the file cabinet" phenomenon. It basically explains that no one knows about the unreported situations that because it worked. School B, and no one else never find out you broke contract with school A.... In all fairness though people have gotten caught and have ended up with loosing both jobs. However if your marketable enough, you could always switch agencies, and look for (shocked look) another job. If your a qualified and competitive candidate, you will probably be hired again somewhere else.
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overseasvet2
- Posts: 191
- Joined: Wed Jun 08, 2011 10:50 pm
breaking a contract
Consider strongly before doing such a thing. Administrators have long memories and they don't stay in the same school. The recruiting agencies do have "black lists" and I know a person they refused to ever allow participate again for breaking a contract. Of course, she left mid-year and left the school in a lurch.
It's really a question of ethics - yes, you can get away with it but you will have kept someone else out of that first job and left the first school in a tough situation - especially if it's late in the recruiting season. If you have any doubts or have other irons in the fire, then you shouldn't sign any contract unless you intend to honor it.
We have a tough enough time as teachers being viewed as professionials...we really need to keep the bar high.
It's really a question of ethics - yes, you can get away with it but you will have kept someone else out of that first job and left the first school in a tough situation - especially if it's late in the recruiting season. If you have any doubts or have other irons in the fire, then you shouldn't sign any contract unless you intend to honor it.
We have a tough enough time as teachers being viewed as professionials...we really need to keep the bar high.
I agree with several of PG's observations, but not his conclusions.
The character question is interesting, and I happen to believe it matters very much. I do have principles, and I respect those who do, and I make choices in life based on those. Still, PG is right in that you have to decide for yourself whether your word is your bond.
Perhaps more telling, the question of how your actions will be viewed and what might happen. The guy ending up with no job at all - that happens every year. If my school happened to be your second school, the one you signed with after first signing elsewhere, all it would take would be one phone call from your first school, or anyone who happened to know what you did, and we'd cancel your contract as soon as we confirmed the story. Frankly, we're not interested in taking risks on people who demonstrate that they can't be trusted, that they may or may not live up to their obligations - and yes, once you accept a job and even more once you sign a contract, you have an obligation to live up to. And unlike PG suggests, we wouldn't care if you'd walked away from a third, fourth or even fifth tier school in order to join us, clearly the superior school. All we'd care about is that you can't be trusted to honor a contract. And by extension, can't be trusted, period.
I'm being rather blunt this morning, aren't I?
It's not personal. Not really. I consider it normal to be tempted by these things. I've been tempted. Which is why once I accept a contract, I immediately stop looking, tell my agency, and send polite "I'm out of the race" notes to any schools I'd been in discussions with. It stops the temptation.
But you need to know what awaits on the other side of the fence. There's a chance it could be greener grass, and a chance it could be no grass at all, with your name bandied about the circuit as someone to avoid. It's not a risk I'd be willing to take.
The character question is interesting, and I happen to believe it matters very much. I do have principles, and I respect those who do, and I make choices in life based on those. Still, PG is right in that you have to decide for yourself whether your word is your bond.
Perhaps more telling, the question of how your actions will be viewed and what might happen. The guy ending up with no job at all - that happens every year. If my school happened to be your second school, the one you signed with after first signing elsewhere, all it would take would be one phone call from your first school, or anyone who happened to know what you did, and we'd cancel your contract as soon as we confirmed the story. Frankly, we're not interested in taking risks on people who demonstrate that they can't be trusted, that they may or may not live up to their obligations - and yes, once you accept a job and even more once you sign a contract, you have an obligation to live up to. And unlike PG suggests, we wouldn't care if you'd walked away from a third, fourth or even fifth tier school in order to join us, clearly the superior school. All we'd care about is that you can't be trusted to honor a contract. And by extension, can't be trusted, period.
I'm being rather blunt this morning, aren't I?
It's not personal. Not really. I consider it normal to be tempted by these things. I've been tempted. Which is why once I accept a contract, I immediately stop looking, tell my agency, and send polite "I'm out of the race" notes to any schools I'd been in discussions with. It stops the temptation.
But you need to know what awaits on the other side of the fence. There's a chance it could be greener grass, and a chance it could be no grass at all, with your name bandied about the circuit as someone to avoid. It's not a risk I'd be willing to take.
Say you signed a contract with a school, and then they found someone much better qualified for the job...
Finish the sentence yourself, and see how you feel.
If School A fills your needs/desires, then sign the contract and be happy about it. But for heaven's sakes, don't "settle" while still searching; you might be the dog in the manger who is preventing someone else from landing that job.
Finish the sentence yourself, and see how you feel.
If School A fills your needs/desires, then sign the contract and be happy about it. But for heaven's sakes, don't "settle" while still searching; you might be the dog in the manger who is preventing someone else from landing that job.
Perspective
I think one aspect that Sid is neglecting is the "Spin", hes responding fromt he point of knowing what actually happened, not what hes going to be presented with what happened. If i was going to bail on a school for another job, id contact school 1 and say
"Im sorry but my mom, sister, brother, wife, husband, dog, girlfriend, goldfish, found out she/he has cancer, a tumor, lymphoma, Parkinsons, disease, etc and the family and friends are really mobilizing around this. I dont know how events are going to develop, but i cant in good faith leave you hanging should the fall come around and Im unable to remain on your staff. Im telling you now, so that you have as much time as possible to find a replacement and hope that it doesnt sour our relationship in the future." They will say they are so sorry, and thank you for being so "professional".
As opposed to saying "Hey i got a better deal at another school, Sorry."
As far the "pulling a runner" in a 3rd tier or worse school. I can respect Sid's opinion, but from an option standpoint, its much easier to hide and conceal a broken contract, before your even there, when you have another offer to bury it under, then show up at whats going to be a 2 year contract of suffering (because thats why their called third tier schools) and pull a runner mid year, when you WILL leave a school abandoned and not have the bennifit of a competing offer and school. Sure there are a couple people who get caught every year, but thats because they werent really smart about how they handled "the spin".
I respect people who have principals as well, i also respect people who "act" like they have principals, from a practical standpoint I cant tell the difference, and acting is a lot easier, and less painful then actual principals. People only know what you show and tell them and true character is what you do when no one else is watching, but how can you bank on your good character if no one is around to tell others about it.... Always seemed like a catch 22 to me.
Lastly, Sid, are you so "honest and trusted" that Diogenes has been to your home? Can you say youve never lied, can you throw the proverbial first stone?
"Im sorry but my mom, sister, brother, wife, husband, dog, girlfriend, goldfish, found out she/he has cancer, a tumor, lymphoma, Parkinsons, disease, etc and the family and friends are really mobilizing around this. I dont know how events are going to develop, but i cant in good faith leave you hanging should the fall come around and Im unable to remain on your staff. Im telling you now, so that you have as much time as possible to find a replacement and hope that it doesnt sour our relationship in the future." They will say they are so sorry, and thank you for being so "professional".
As opposed to saying "Hey i got a better deal at another school, Sorry."
As far the "pulling a runner" in a 3rd tier or worse school. I can respect Sid's opinion, but from an option standpoint, its much easier to hide and conceal a broken contract, before your even there, when you have another offer to bury it under, then show up at whats going to be a 2 year contract of suffering (because thats why their called third tier schools) and pull a runner mid year, when you WILL leave a school abandoned and not have the bennifit of a competing offer and school. Sure there are a couple people who get caught every year, but thats because they werent really smart about how they handled "the spin".
I respect people who have principals as well, i also respect people who "act" like they have principals, from a practical standpoint I cant tell the difference, and acting is a lot easier, and less painful then actual principals. People only know what you show and tell them and true character is what you do when no one else is watching, but how can you bank on your good character if no one is around to tell others about it.... Always seemed like a catch 22 to me.
Lastly, Sid, are you so "honest and trusted" that Diogenes has been to your home? Can you say youve never lied, can you throw the proverbial first stone?
Diogenes passes me by.
I've made my mistakes. Some haunt me. Whether it's purely principle I don't know. I'm sure it's mixed up with a good dose of not wanting other people to know, a shudder as I remember the consequences of my actions.
But surely one can give guidance, especially if the guidance was requested, without first achieving perfection?
And perhaps having made some errors, lived with the results, is also a good basis for offering advice.
I've made my mistakes. Some haunt me. Whether it's purely principle I don't know. I'm sure it's mixed up with a good dose of not wanting other people to know, a shudder as I remember the consequences of my actions.
But surely one can give guidance, especially if the guidance was requested, without first achieving perfection?
And perhaps having made some errors, lived with the results, is also a good basis for offering advice.
Quary
@ Sid
Surely one can, but should one surely, and therein said the Bard lies the rub.
You say you wouldnt trust such a person, but would you trust and respect such a person who recognizing they made a mistake, simply acquiesced to their fate when presented with an opportunity to remediate and remedy their error? What about their family, should they suffer the error as well? I wouldnt have a lot of respect for a parent who required their children to endure such a life, "simply to keep to the letter and the principle of the contract" Im sure the quality of mercy, being not [con]strained deems that justice is not as simple as a rule book, though i can see youd prefer your pound of flesh...
You confess having to have made the mistakes and lived with the results, and that since you are offering advice and guidance on this specific topic, that youve breached similar (perhaps not identical) professional agreements and herein before us you stand, an administrator and none to worse or worn from the journey?
Surely one can, but should one surely, and therein said the Bard lies the rub.
You say you wouldnt trust such a person, but would you trust and respect such a person who recognizing they made a mistake, simply acquiesced to their fate when presented with an opportunity to remediate and remedy their error? What about their family, should they suffer the error as well? I wouldnt have a lot of respect for a parent who required their children to endure such a life, "simply to keep to the letter and the principle of the contract" Im sure the quality of mercy, being not [con]strained deems that justice is not as simple as a rule book, though i can see youd prefer your pound of flesh...
You confess having to have made the mistakes and lived with the results, and that since you are offering advice and guidance on this specific topic, that youve breached similar (perhaps not identical) professional agreements and herein before us you stand, an administrator and none to worse or worn from the journey?
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wrldtrvlr123
- Posts: 1173
- Joined: Sat Feb 06, 2010 10:59 am
- Location: Japan
Re: Query
[quote="PsyGuy"]@ Sid
Surely one can, but should one surely, and therein said the Bard lies the rub.
You say you wouldnt trust such a person, but would you trust and respect such a person who recognizing they made a mistake, simply acquiesced to their fate when presented with an opportunity to remediate and remedy their error? What about their family, should they suffer the error as well? I wouldnt have a lot of respect for a parent who required their children to endure such a life, "simply to keep to the letter and the principle of the contract" Im sure the quality of mercy, being not [con]strained deems that justice is not as simple as a rule book, though i can see youd prefer your pound of flesh...
You confess having to have made the mistakes and lived with the results, and that since you are offering advice and guidance on this specific topic, that youve breached similar (perhaps not identical) professional agreements and therein before my eyes you stand, an administrator and none to worse or worn from the journey?[/quote]
Well, I can honestly say I have passed up better opportunities after signing a contract and even passed up interviewing for what was my dream chance at the time (DoDDS) because I was in the middle of a two year contract with a group of colleagues, families and students I really cared about.
Was I being a martyr? Not really, because I really liked what I was doing and was being well compensated for it (and my wife was also under contract to her school and being very well compensated for it).
But that was what felt right to me and my family at the time and I don't regret it (VERY much, or TOO often :(). Everyone must decide for themselves what feels right and what they can live with.
I won't judge others, but making a choice to trade up for what seems a better deal can have consequences and you can't really complain if the offended school tries to make your life miserable for your choice (just as we, as teachers, would scream to high heaven if (when) schools break their word to jump on a "better" candidate.
Surely one can, but should one surely, and therein said the Bard lies the rub.
You say you wouldnt trust such a person, but would you trust and respect such a person who recognizing they made a mistake, simply acquiesced to their fate when presented with an opportunity to remediate and remedy their error? What about their family, should they suffer the error as well? I wouldnt have a lot of respect for a parent who required their children to endure such a life, "simply to keep to the letter and the principle of the contract" Im sure the quality of mercy, being not [con]strained deems that justice is not as simple as a rule book, though i can see youd prefer your pound of flesh...
You confess having to have made the mistakes and lived with the results, and that since you are offering advice and guidance on this specific topic, that youve breached similar (perhaps not identical) professional agreements and therein before my eyes you stand, an administrator and none to worse or worn from the journey?[/quote]
Well, I can honestly say I have passed up better opportunities after signing a contract and even passed up interviewing for what was my dream chance at the time (DoDDS) because I was in the middle of a two year contract with a group of colleagues, families and students I really cared about.
Was I being a martyr? Not really, because I really liked what I was doing and was being well compensated for it (and my wife was also under contract to her school and being very well compensated for it).
But that was what felt right to me and my family at the time and I don't regret it (VERY much, or TOO often :(). Everyone must decide for themselves what feels right and what they can live with.
I won't judge others, but making a choice to trade up for what seems a better deal can have consequences and you can't really complain if the offended school tries to make your life miserable for your choice (just as we, as teachers, would scream to high heaven if (when) schools break their word to jump on a "better" candidate.
OK
@wrldtrvlr123
So if DoDDS had actually offered you a position (and the right position, right location), just say so and the FED EX contract is in the mail, knowing youd likely NEVER get the offer again? After all once in DoDDS youd never have to worry about another fair, or it coming back to bite you, DoDDS is where you go to retire after all. There would be ZERO practical consequences, and many a DoDDS teacher has bailed on a contract (they hire so late in the summer sometimes fall after all)? Would you still have said no???
So if DoDDS had actually offered you a position (and the right position, right location), just say so and the FED EX contract is in the mail, knowing youd likely NEVER get the offer again? After all once in DoDDS youd never have to worry about another fair, or it coming back to bite you, DoDDS is where you go to retire after all. There would be ZERO practical consequences, and many a DoDDS teacher has bailed on a contract (they hire so late in the summer sometimes fall after all)? Would you still have said no???
The guy didn't make a mistake. He signed a contract.
He didn't sign up to a life of torture and misery. He agreed to join a school that seemed all right at the time.
He didn't since find out that the school is pit of hell. He just saw greener pastures.
He didn't ask whether he would get divine absolution. He asked what would happen if.
How did this descend into personal attacks? Do what you feel is best. Let the OP make his decision. He's asked for opinions, he's got them.
Sid out
He didn't sign up to a life of torture and misery. He agreed to join a school that seemed all right at the time.
He didn't since find out that the school is pit of hell. He just saw greener pastures.
He didn't ask whether he would get divine absolution. He asked what would happen if.
How did this descend into personal attacks? Do what you feel is best. Let the OP make his decision. He's asked for opinions, he's got them.
Sid out
My apologies
if you interpreted anything I said as a personal attack, i do apologize I didnt mean too offend you or attack you in any way. Im really sorry if it came off that way.
Signing a contract can be a mistake.
How things are and how they seem are not the same thing. Im sure everyone thought a cruise on the Costa Concordia seemed like a good idea as well. We often complain about hindsight, but late foresight is better then none at all.
Can we agree that descriptions such as "hell" and "greener pastures" are relative?
Again i apologize, you wrote in your previous post that youd made some mistakes, and suffered some consequences as a result. You seem to have overcome those events and appear pretty successful, so maybe they werent so bad?
Signing a contract can be a mistake.
How things are and how they seem are not the same thing. Im sure everyone thought a cruise on the Costa Concordia seemed like a good idea as well. We often complain about hindsight, but late foresight is better then none at all.
Can we agree that descriptions such as "hell" and "greener pastures" are relative?
Again i apologize, you wrote in your previous post that youd made some mistakes, and suffered some consequences as a result. You seem to have overcome those events and appear pretty successful, so maybe they werent so bad?