[quote="PsyGuy"]I was not at Cambridge to recruit and never said I was.[/quote]
I believe you. But you were posting frequent updates about the fairs based on feedback from principals at your school, right?
Here was your post...
http://internationalschoolsreview.com/v ... 54c4a38972
You posted about the Cambridge Fair....a fair that no school from Denmark was at. How could they know what was going on if they weren't even there?
Hmmmmm.....[/url]
"Blacklisted"
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centennial95
- Posts: 30
- Joined: Mon Jan 23, 2012 12:55 am
Dear Mr Psy:
It's really hard to respond to your assertions, because it seems that whatever people say, you just try to trump them by shouting out another assertion. Here are my credentials for saying what I am going to say:
I have been a school head for more than twenty years and a deputy head and principal before that. Every year I attend the major recruiting fairs around the world and have done for decades.
I have been involved in the IB for thirty years - first as a teacher, then an IB Coordinator, then an examiner.
I'd really like to know your credentials for saying what you say.
I was at each social event at the Cambridge and Boston fairs and met with many, many school heads who have been friends for years, and yet you tell me that there were practically no heads present, so I guess I was hallucinating. There were 130 school heads at the AISH Oasis which was held in Boston. You, in the meantime weren’t at either of these fairs, but you really know that these were fairs full of principals and not heads.
You tell me that TIE and ISC are trying to mislead us, when they relate information about increasing enrolment in our schools that, in the case of TIE, they have obtained directly from the international schools themselves. I have no reason to assume that TIE and ISC have any vested interest in misrepresenting enrolment patterns. What evidence do you have for this? In the meantime, my school, like most I know, is experiencing consistent growth in enrolment.
You boast proudly that your source of information is the IB – which represents, you say, 3,300 schools. Did you know that almost half of those schools are in public and independent schools in the US, and that international schools represent only 20% of the total figure? Why would you think that the IB – which has certainly never asked me or any international school head I know about the number of students in our schools – have any relevant information about international school enrolment? They don’t know and they don’t care.
You tell me that SEARCH Bangkok and ISS Bangkok were CREATED for veteran teachers. I can tell you as an absolute fact that this isn't the case. Back in 2003, School heads in the IASAS and APAC groups were frustrated that the various recruitment agencies were fighting about the dates of their fairs and leapfrogging each other to the disadvantage of schools and teachers. They decided to set up their own small fair instead for teachers interested in working in these schools. bangkok was the chosen venue because of its ease of access and availability of accommodation of all types and prices. Almost at the last minute, ISS offered to take on the administrative burden and to widen the schools to encompass all in EARCOS. The heads involved said okay go ahead. A year later, SEARCH realized the potential of a fair in this region and leapfrogged ISS. But there was no plan that these were ever fairs CREATED for veteran teachers.
And yes, I know smaller SEARCH Fairs have single sign-ups. Why wouldn't I know that? I go to them. But I also know that SEARCH Cambridge has a dual sign-up arrangement, and there has been no change in this.
Please stop pretending to know things that you don't know.
It's really hard to respond to your assertions, because it seems that whatever people say, you just try to trump them by shouting out another assertion. Here are my credentials for saying what I am going to say:
I have been a school head for more than twenty years and a deputy head and principal before that. Every year I attend the major recruiting fairs around the world and have done for decades.
I have been involved in the IB for thirty years - first as a teacher, then an IB Coordinator, then an examiner.
I'd really like to know your credentials for saying what you say.
I was at each social event at the Cambridge and Boston fairs and met with many, many school heads who have been friends for years, and yet you tell me that there were practically no heads present, so I guess I was hallucinating. There were 130 school heads at the AISH Oasis which was held in Boston. You, in the meantime weren’t at either of these fairs, but you really know that these were fairs full of principals and not heads.
You tell me that TIE and ISC are trying to mislead us, when they relate information about increasing enrolment in our schools that, in the case of TIE, they have obtained directly from the international schools themselves. I have no reason to assume that TIE and ISC have any vested interest in misrepresenting enrolment patterns. What evidence do you have for this? In the meantime, my school, like most I know, is experiencing consistent growth in enrolment.
You boast proudly that your source of information is the IB – which represents, you say, 3,300 schools. Did you know that almost half of those schools are in public and independent schools in the US, and that international schools represent only 20% of the total figure? Why would you think that the IB – which has certainly never asked me or any international school head I know about the number of students in our schools – have any relevant information about international school enrolment? They don’t know and they don’t care.
You tell me that SEARCH Bangkok and ISS Bangkok were CREATED for veteran teachers. I can tell you as an absolute fact that this isn't the case. Back in 2003, School heads in the IASAS and APAC groups were frustrated that the various recruitment agencies were fighting about the dates of their fairs and leapfrogging each other to the disadvantage of schools and teachers. They decided to set up their own small fair instead for teachers interested in working in these schools. bangkok was the chosen venue because of its ease of access and availability of accommodation of all types and prices. Almost at the last minute, ISS offered to take on the administrative burden and to widen the schools to encompass all in EARCOS. The heads involved said okay go ahead. A year later, SEARCH realized the potential of a fair in this region and leapfrogged ISS. But there was no plan that these were ever fairs CREATED for veteran teachers.
And yes, I know smaller SEARCH Fairs have single sign-ups. Why wouldn't I know that? I go to them. But I also know that SEARCH Cambridge has a dual sign-up arrangement, and there has been no change in this.
Please stop pretending to know things that you don't know.
Response
@LilyBlue
I never said "I" or my school was at Cambridge/Search "recruiting". An admin of ours was at ISS, but I didnt say they were recruiting either.
@Walter
Thank you for your resume, but you just make appeals to authority. Your "the boss" so what you say must be right.
I didnt say there were NO heads present, I wrote that more heads this year went to UNI then Search/ISS Boston then in the past.
Thats the problem with survey research while TIE and ISC have less a vested interest in the results the SCHOOLS have a very vested interest in the results. Its called social desirability. They asked (only 166) of the LEADING (top) schools about their enrollment predictions. Thats like me ASKING a bunch of MENSA members their IQ and reporting the mean as the average for everyone. Its hardly representative. Of course the top schools are seeing growth, their getting the kids from the lower schools that are being squeezed out. Even so World wide this year saw a 2% drop in growth not a 10% increase.
Its more like a 1/3, or 1,311 IB schools are in the USA of the 3,334 IB schools world wide. Thats a pretty ethno centric view of yours. An IB school in the USA would be an International school to someone who isnt from the USA.
The IBO doesnt really ask, and they dont have to they have LOTS of examinee and transcript data. Its submitted to them annually, and they do care they publish a great deal of information about it every year as well in a very comprehensive report.
Ive addressed why BKK was the site for the fair and agree with you completely as to its accessibility and price controls. But its not the IASAS and APAC fairs is it, its the Search and ISS fairs, and their plans and intentions for THEIR fair once they controlled the site are what really matter. Once you control something you can do whatever you want with it, and when John moved into the BKK AFTER ISS, his leverage for making that fair better was to brand it as the fair for "experienced" educators.
So no your claim is false, but neither one of us will convince the other.
I dont need to pretend.
I never said "I" or my school was at Cambridge/Search "recruiting". An admin of ours was at ISS, but I didnt say they were recruiting either.
@Walter
Thank you for your resume, but you just make appeals to authority. Your "the boss" so what you say must be right.
I didnt say there were NO heads present, I wrote that more heads this year went to UNI then Search/ISS Boston then in the past.
Thats the problem with survey research while TIE and ISC have less a vested interest in the results the SCHOOLS have a very vested interest in the results. Its called social desirability. They asked (only 166) of the LEADING (top) schools about their enrollment predictions. Thats like me ASKING a bunch of MENSA members their IQ and reporting the mean as the average for everyone. Its hardly representative. Of course the top schools are seeing growth, their getting the kids from the lower schools that are being squeezed out. Even so World wide this year saw a 2% drop in growth not a 10% increase.
Its more like a 1/3, or 1,311 IB schools are in the USA of the 3,334 IB schools world wide. Thats a pretty ethno centric view of yours. An IB school in the USA would be an International school to someone who isnt from the USA.
The IBO doesnt really ask, and they dont have to they have LOTS of examinee and transcript data. Its submitted to them annually, and they do care they publish a great deal of information about it every year as well in a very comprehensive report.
Ive addressed why BKK was the site for the fair and agree with you completely as to its accessibility and price controls. But its not the IASAS and APAC fairs is it, its the Search and ISS fairs, and their plans and intentions for THEIR fair once they controlled the site are what really matter. Once you control something you can do whatever you want with it, and when John moved into the BKK AFTER ISS, his leverage for making that fair better was to brand it as the fair for "experienced" educators.
So no your claim is false, but neither one of us will convince the other.
I dont need to pretend.
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wrldtrvlr123
- Posts: 1173
- Joined: Sat Feb 06, 2010 10:59 am
- Location: Japan
Re: Response
[quote="PsyGuy"]
Its more like a 1/3, or 1,311 IB schools are in the USA of the 3,334 IB schools world wide. Thats a pretty ethno centric view of yours. An IB school in the USA would be an International school to someone who isnt from the USA.
[/quote]
Ummm, but aren't a majority of U.S. IB programs (or at least a huge chunk) in public schools?
Its more like a 1/3, or 1,311 IB schools are in the USA of the 3,334 IB schools world wide. Thats a pretty ethno centric view of yours. An IB school in the USA would be an International school to someone who isnt from the USA.
[/quote]
Ummm, but aren't a majority of U.S. IB programs (or at least a huge chunk) in public schools?
Re: Response
[quote="wrldtrvlr123"][quote="PsyGuy"]
Its more like a 1/3, or 1,311 IB schools are in the USA of the 3,334 IB schools world wide. Thats a pretty ethno centric view of yours. An IB school in the USA would be an International school to someone who isnt from the USA.
[/quote]
Ummm, but aren't a majority of U.S. IB programs (or at least a huge chunk) in public schools?[/quote]
I think, yes. Almost all of the IB programs of are within public school districts, so they are not international schools. There are a handful of private international schools that offer IB in the US, but I do think majority of the IB programs in the US are not international schools and would not be viewed as international schools in any way. In an article about the IB program expanding in the US: ..."But it is now offered in more than 700 American high schools — more than 90 percent of them public schools "
Its more like a 1/3, or 1,311 IB schools are in the USA of the 3,334 IB schools world wide. Thats a pretty ethno centric view of yours. An IB school in the USA would be an International school to someone who isnt from the USA.
[/quote]
Ummm, but aren't a majority of U.S. IB programs (or at least a huge chunk) in public schools?[/quote]
I think, yes. Almost all of the IB programs of are within public school districts, so they are not international schools. There are a handful of private international schools that offer IB in the US, but I do think majority of the IB programs in the US are not international schools and would not be viewed as international schools in any way. In an article about the IB program expanding in the US: ..."But it is now offered in more than 700 American high schools — more than 90 percent of them public schools "
Sure
Ok, assuming that they are, does being a public school mean a school cant be an international school"? There are a lot of international schools across the globe that are called "international" schools but have mostly local students? The school I work at now is a municipal school, which is a public school, and were an international IB school.
I’ve watched this site for a while now and have decided to put my own contribution in. First of all, thank you Walter for your balanced contribution. You really have summed up the state of play from a head of school’s point of you. However, it seems that no matter what you do, the response from Psyguy is to try and yell louder and try to hope that people are distracted and don’t look carefully at what he is saying. I think from what I have read, people have seen through Psyguy and are chuckling at his responses. I know I have been. He is like the kid on the playground who is about to take his ball home as he is not getting what he wants.
I love this posting:
Psyguy wrote: I didnt say there were NO heads present, I wrote that more heads this year went to UNI then Search/ISS Boston then in the past.
No actually this is what he wrote:
Psyguy wrote: Was one of the few... Most of the admins at Search and presumably ISS were non head admins.
My comment: So most of the admins at Search were non head admins? If you weren’t there and Walter was, how can you possibly make this statement? Especially if Walter says he saw lots of his friends there who were heads of schools?
Let me address specifically his posts about the Search Associates Sydney fair which he said he attended, but actually wasn’t registered for. I was a recruiter at the Sydney fair and want to address some of the misconceptions he has written about.
Psyguy wrote: A lot of schools this year are "waiting" for the 2 big fairs to sign, from what I experienced Cambridge might be the end of the race this year.
My comment What rubbish. My school hired 8 teachers at Sydney and talking to Nick, I know he had an exceptional year this year and placed more than his yearly average. I know of a top tier school that hired more than 10 teachers from Search Sydney. Schools used to wait until Cambridge to sign teachers, but there just aren’t enough good teachers around to wait, and so if we find the right teacher we make an offer and sign them up as soon as possible.
Psyguy wrote: Second, I saw a lot of newbies, a lot of newbies, and I really believe that one of the problems as a profession we have to deal with is Teacher Training and Educational programs. I have to think thats the problem because I cant imagine what media outlets some of these teachers get their expectations from??? I kept thinking back over the interviews "did i have that kind of ego when I was starting out?". These schools (colleges/universities) really fill their students heads with very high employment expectations, especially career changers. Their really is an inflated idea of what it means to be an international teacher.
My comment: Again false. Let’s be clear here. In this post Psyguy is writing about new teachers to the profession here- not new teachers to international schools. One example he gives in this post is the person who has not graduated yet and who is told by his college counselor to lie about this on his resume.
I checked the candidate database that I was given by Nick, the senior associate. Yes, this is one that is developed specifically for the Sydney fair. Out of the 180 candidates one person was a new graduate, but this was a female and she got a job. She did not lie about this on her resume. The rest of the teachers there had certification and had a minimum of 2 year’s experience- most of them with many more year’s experience than the 2 needed to join up with Search.
Psyguy wrote: BUT my deeper issue is the underlying feeling that these teachers were NOT open or disposed to thinking outside the educational structures they had learned. The sense I and my coworker got was that "their way (what they learned) was the best way to teach". Now pride is one thing, but arrogance to the point of closing oneself of to other POV's and seems from the standpoint of an educator as being pernicious to ones own professional standards and expectations. How can you develop creativity and flexible learning in your students if you cant do it yourself?
My comment: Were you actually at the same fair as me Psyguy? I doubt it. The reason I go to the Search fair in Sydney is the fact that the teachers from NZ and Australia are the most creative and flexible I have met. They are taught this in university and practice this at their schools. They teach across year levels and are flexible enough that if asked to they can teach outside of their subject specialties. And they are excellent practitioners. Ask a NZ or Australian primary teacher about literacy or numeracy and you will learn something from them. Ask a high school teacher about utilizing an inquiry based approach in their higher level classes and you will be amazed by the intelligent reflective response you get. Do all of them know IB? No, but they all know inquiry and can adapt readily to new situations and the IB is a program that can be learnt.
Psyguy wrote: We had a number of candidates who didnt know what school they were interviewing for, where we were located, where Denmark is on a map or what the IB/IBO was.
My comment: Again, what rubbish. The candidates were well briefed. Australians and Kiwis are some of the world’s most travelled people and it is insulting to say they don’t know where Denmark is. This sort of statement may fly in the US, but is ridiculous to say this about Australians and New Zealanders. Don’t you know Princess Mary of Denmark is from Tasmania? You know where that is right Psyguy? What a stupid thing to talk about- Denmark is probably the most known country in Europe because of her.
Also, Search ran a number of briefing sessions before the fair on the IB PYP, MYP and DP programs so this statement is just rubbish.
Psyguy wrote: On the same note, what we heard from several other schools was the concern of what a Native English Speaker is. There were a number of Filipino candidates who insisted they were native english speakers
My comment: Wrong – there were no Filipino candidates this year but there have been in previous years. Everyone who went to Search Sydney this year was a native English speaker save the one candidate who was a native Spanish teacher looking for, wait for it, Spanish teaching jobs.
Psyguy wrote:
This was the first fair for the vast majority of newbies, and I see it all the time. They have high hopes, and expectations, and they realize either 1) No one is really interested in them (mainly because the fairs are typically mid year, and many of them arent certified, or have their degrees yet, and they have no experience).
My comment: Wrong- every single candidate was certified. All candidates, except the one I spoke about had at least two year’s of experience. Psyguy is correct that this is the first fair for newbies, but these are newbies to international schools, not newbies to teaching which is what he is referring to in his post. These newbies are some of the most experienced teachers I have seen- and no, they are not career changers, but career teachers.
Psyguy wrote: I think in my opinion, that a lot of the career changers who lost jobs and decided to try teaching will go back to their corporate professions when the economy improves.
My comment: Wow- were you in Australia? You know of course that Australia is one of the few countries that maintained growth through the last financial crisis right? Why? Because of the sustained mining boom. The issue for Australia is not about people switching jobs to teaching- it is getting enough people to teach. Why teach when you can earn $140k on a mine in Western Australia.
In another post psyguy wrote:
I think what i heard from one recruiter in germany sums up the sentiment really well" "This cant be all there is?" None of the recruiters have been impressed with many of the candidates. It creates some interesting dynamics. Basically the upper tier schools are giving positions to under experienced teachers teachers they normally wouldnt consider. The reason being the experienced teacher market was very small this year, people just stayed where they are, and didnt want to look for new positions in a depressed economy. A school in germany hired an intern with a full compensation package for a teacher position. Several counselor positions were filled by people with no license or certification.
My comment: This is just wrong. As usual there are lots of excellent candidates and the challenge is to convince these good candidates to come to your school. My school is a top tier school and we have had no problems convincing high quality candidates to come to the school. The market for experienced international teachers is the same it has ever been. What school in Germany hired an intern? What counselor positions were filled by people with no certification?
Psyguy wrote:
At the more veteran fairs invites move you to the front of the line, at the fairs that cater more too newbies, everyone waits.
My comment: Not true. At the Sydney fair, I was given some white slips and filled these out and put these in candidate’s files indicating I would like to interview them. These candidates were able to jump the line.
Psyguy wrote: We saw a lot of resumes that had skills sections, objectives at the top and "References available on request" at the bottom. We also saw a lot of "inflated" job descriptions
My comment: Hmm- references available on request. Now I know you weren’t at the Search fair. On the thumb drive I received, I had the whole profile of candidates as well as their confidential references. That’s why I like Search- I get everything I need.
On the same issue about whether you were at the Search fair, I have this niggling suspicion you aren’t who you say you are. You have posted you are at a municipal school in Denmark that teaches the IB. Why would a school like this send 2 people to Sydney to not hire anyone, and then 2 principals to Bangkok to hire people. I doubt this type of school would spend the sort of money required to send junior administrators recruiting. So, what about the principals in Bangkok. I know for a fact there were no Danish schools at the Search Bangkok fair. How do I know? I got that information from a senior associate who was there.
Psyguy wrote:
About 20% of Search clients exhaust all three years on their membership without accepting a position, and the top reasons (in order) are: 1) Overly selective candidates, 2) Too expensive to place, 3) Lack of experience.
My comment: How can you possibly make this statement? Are you a Senior Associate? I sincerely doubt it as I count a lot of them as my friends and probably some of them have been reading your posts and laughing amongst themselves. I know Search doesn’t even track this data. They track other things such as how many teachers get hired and whether this is at a fair or outside a fair, but it is absolutely a lie that there is any data that 20% of Search candidates exhaust all three years without accepting a position.
Now on the topic of blacklists. Walter is correct in the way he describes the use of Headnet to alert heads about teachers that they may want to know more about. But, isn’t this a form of blacklist? It doesn’t have to come in the form of a secret piece of paper, but if heads are talking about candidates that you may want to know more about before you hire them, then I wouldn’t want to be on this list? And what about the agencies? You can be sure they have people on their own internal lists they won’t work with again. Is it a blacklist? Not in as many words, but it does the same thing. Like I said, I wouldn’t want to be on any list.
Just a word on Bangkok Search. Walter is correct about the origins of the ISS fair. Psyguy is correct that this has become a fair for more experienced teachers. Did it start this way? No. Search for years had run a very small fair in Kuala Lumpur between Christmas and New Year. This was not successful and was close to closing. When ISS started the BKK fair Search moved the fair to BKK. Why? Good old competition. They didn’t want ISS to get a foothold in BKK and it made sense to run a fair in BKK directly after the Search Sydney fair so recruiters could go to two very different fairs in a short period of time. Search does the recruitment business better than any other agency and a few short years later have cornered the market.
I would like to end my posting with some advice for readers. Please do your own research and remember that what people post are their own views on issues. There is no right view, but if you read carefully enough, you will be able to form your own view of things. If you have an offer and want to know about a school, you should write or call a teacher at the school who is in the same position as you and not rely on someone who seems to know everything about everything, because that is just not possible. Be wary of people who make blanket statements and when are presented with alternative research, debunk that research but don’t give alternatives. We teach children to - information and come up with their own sensible conclusions and I think most people here can do the same thing.
I love this posting:
Psyguy wrote: I didnt say there were NO heads present, I wrote that more heads this year went to UNI then Search/ISS Boston then in the past.
No actually this is what he wrote:
Psyguy wrote: Was one of the few... Most of the admins at Search and presumably ISS were non head admins.
My comment: So most of the admins at Search were non head admins? If you weren’t there and Walter was, how can you possibly make this statement? Especially if Walter says he saw lots of his friends there who were heads of schools?
Let me address specifically his posts about the Search Associates Sydney fair which he said he attended, but actually wasn’t registered for. I was a recruiter at the Sydney fair and want to address some of the misconceptions he has written about.
Psyguy wrote: A lot of schools this year are "waiting" for the 2 big fairs to sign, from what I experienced Cambridge might be the end of the race this year.
My comment What rubbish. My school hired 8 teachers at Sydney and talking to Nick, I know he had an exceptional year this year and placed more than his yearly average. I know of a top tier school that hired more than 10 teachers from Search Sydney. Schools used to wait until Cambridge to sign teachers, but there just aren’t enough good teachers around to wait, and so if we find the right teacher we make an offer and sign them up as soon as possible.
Psyguy wrote: Second, I saw a lot of newbies, a lot of newbies, and I really believe that one of the problems as a profession we have to deal with is Teacher Training and Educational programs. I have to think thats the problem because I cant imagine what media outlets some of these teachers get their expectations from??? I kept thinking back over the interviews "did i have that kind of ego when I was starting out?". These schools (colleges/universities) really fill their students heads with very high employment expectations, especially career changers. Their really is an inflated idea of what it means to be an international teacher.
My comment: Again false. Let’s be clear here. In this post Psyguy is writing about new teachers to the profession here- not new teachers to international schools. One example he gives in this post is the person who has not graduated yet and who is told by his college counselor to lie about this on his resume.
I checked the candidate database that I was given by Nick, the senior associate. Yes, this is one that is developed specifically for the Sydney fair. Out of the 180 candidates one person was a new graduate, but this was a female and she got a job. She did not lie about this on her resume. The rest of the teachers there had certification and had a minimum of 2 year’s experience- most of them with many more year’s experience than the 2 needed to join up with Search.
Psyguy wrote: BUT my deeper issue is the underlying feeling that these teachers were NOT open or disposed to thinking outside the educational structures they had learned. The sense I and my coworker got was that "their way (what they learned) was the best way to teach". Now pride is one thing, but arrogance to the point of closing oneself of to other POV's and seems from the standpoint of an educator as being pernicious to ones own professional standards and expectations. How can you develop creativity and flexible learning in your students if you cant do it yourself?
My comment: Were you actually at the same fair as me Psyguy? I doubt it. The reason I go to the Search fair in Sydney is the fact that the teachers from NZ and Australia are the most creative and flexible I have met. They are taught this in university and practice this at their schools. They teach across year levels and are flexible enough that if asked to they can teach outside of their subject specialties. And they are excellent practitioners. Ask a NZ or Australian primary teacher about literacy or numeracy and you will learn something from them. Ask a high school teacher about utilizing an inquiry based approach in their higher level classes and you will be amazed by the intelligent reflective response you get. Do all of them know IB? No, but they all know inquiry and can adapt readily to new situations and the IB is a program that can be learnt.
Psyguy wrote: We had a number of candidates who didnt know what school they were interviewing for, where we were located, where Denmark is on a map or what the IB/IBO was.
My comment: Again, what rubbish. The candidates were well briefed. Australians and Kiwis are some of the world’s most travelled people and it is insulting to say they don’t know where Denmark is. This sort of statement may fly in the US, but is ridiculous to say this about Australians and New Zealanders. Don’t you know Princess Mary of Denmark is from Tasmania? You know where that is right Psyguy? What a stupid thing to talk about- Denmark is probably the most known country in Europe because of her.
Also, Search ran a number of briefing sessions before the fair on the IB PYP, MYP and DP programs so this statement is just rubbish.
Psyguy wrote: On the same note, what we heard from several other schools was the concern of what a Native English Speaker is. There were a number of Filipino candidates who insisted they were native english speakers
My comment: Wrong – there were no Filipino candidates this year but there have been in previous years. Everyone who went to Search Sydney this year was a native English speaker save the one candidate who was a native Spanish teacher looking for, wait for it, Spanish teaching jobs.
Psyguy wrote:
This was the first fair for the vast majority of newbies, and I see it all the time. They have high hopes, and expectations, and they realize either 1) No one is really interested in them (mainly because the fairs are typically mid year, and many of them arent certified, or have their degrees yet, and they have no experience).
My comment: Wrong- every single candidate was certified. All candidates, except the one I spoke about had at least two year’s of experience. Psyguy is correct that this is the first fair for newbies, but these are newbies to international schools, not newbies to teaching which is what he is referring to in his post. These newbies are some of the most experienced teachers I have seen- and no, they are not career changers, but career teachers.
Psyguy wrote: I think in my opinion, that a lot of the career changers who lost jobs and decided to try teaching will go back to their corporate professions when the economy improves.
My comment: Wow- were you in Australia? You know of course that Australia is one of the few countries that maintained growth through the last financial crisis right? Why? Because of the sustained mining boom. The issue for Australia is not about people switching jobs to teaching- it is getting enough people to teach. Why teach when you can earn $140k on a mine in Western Australia.
In another post psyguy wrote:
I think what i heard from one recruiter in germany sums up the sentiment really well" "This cant be all there is?" None of the recruiters have been impressed with many of the candidates. It creates some interesting dynamics. Basically the upper tier schools are giving positions to under experienced teachers teachers they normally wouldnt consider. The reason being the experienced teacher market was very small this year, people just stayed where they are, and didnt want to look for new positions in a depressed economy. A school in germany hired an intern with a full compensation package for a teacher position. Several counselor positions were filled by people with no license or certification.
My comment: This is just wrong. As usual there are lots of excellent candidates and the challenge is to convince these good candidates to come to your school. My school is a top tier school and we have had no problems convincing high quality candidates to come to the school. The market for experienced international teachers is the same it has ever been. What school in Germany hired an intern? What counselor positions were filled by people with no certification?
Psyguy wrote:
At the more veteran fairs invites move you to the front of the line, at the fairs that cater more too newbies, everyone waits.
My comment: Not true. At the Sydney fair, I was given some white slips and filled these out and put these in candidate’s files indicating I would like to interview them. These candidates were able to jump the line.
Psyguy wrote: We saw a lot of resumes that had skills sections, objectives at the top and "References available on request" at the bottom. We also saw a lot of "inflated" job descriptions
My comment: Hmm- references available on request. Now I know you weren’t at the Search fair. On the thumb drive I received, I had the whole profile of candidates as well as their confidential references. That’s why I like Search- I get everything I need.
On the same issue about whether you were at the Search fair, I have this niggling suspicion you aren’t who you say you are. You have posted you are at a municipal school in Denmark that teaches the IB. Why would a school like this send 2 people to Sydney to not hire anyone, and then 2 principals to Bangkok to hire people. I doubt this type of school would spend the sort of money required to send junior administrators recruiting. So, what about the principals in Bangkok. I know for a fact there were no Danish schools at the Search Bangkok fair. How do I know? I got that information from a senior associate who was there.
Psyguy wrote:
About 20% of Search clients exhaust all three years on their membership without accepting a position, and the top reasons (in order) are: 1) Overly selective candidates, 2) Too expensive to place, 3) Lack of experience.
My comment: How can you possibly make this statement? Are you a Senior Associate? I sincerely doubt it as I count a lot of them as my friends and probably some of them have been reading your posts and laughing amongst themselves. I know Search doesn’t even track this data. They track other things such as how many teachers get hired and whether this is at a fair or outside a fair, but it is absolutely a lie that there is any data that 20% of Search candidates exhaust all three years without accepting a position.
Now on the topic of blacklists. Walter is correct in the way he describes the use of Headnet to alert heads about teachers that they may want to know more about. But, isn’t this a form of blacklist? It doesn’t have to come in the form of a secret piece of paper, but if heads are talking about candidates that you may want to know more about before you hire them, then I wouldn’t want to be on this list? And what about the agencies? You can be sure they have people on their own internal lists they won’t work with again. Is it a blacklist? Not in as many words, but it does the same thing. Like I said, I wouldn’t want to be on any list.
Just a word on Bangkok Search. Walter is correct about the origins of the ISS fair. Psyguy is correct that this has become a fair for more experienced teachers. Did it start this way? No. Search for years had run a very small fair in Kuala Lumpur between Christmas and New Year. This was not successful and was close to closing. When ISS started the BKK fair Search moved the fair to BKK. Why? Good old competition. They didn’t want ISS to get a foothold in BKK and it made sense to run a fair in BKK directly after the Search Sydney fair so recruiters could go to two very different fairs in a short period of time. Search does the recruitment business better than any other agency and a few short years later have cornered the market.
I would like to end my posting with some advice for readers. Please do your own research and remember that what people post are their own views on issues. There is no right view, but if you read carefully enough, you will be able to form your own view of things. If you have an offer and want to know about a school, you should write or call a teacher at the school who is in the same position as you and not rely on someone who seems to know everything about everything, because that is just not possible. Be wary of people who make blanket statements and when are presented with alternative research, debunk that research but don’t give alternatives. We teach children to - information and come up with their own sensible conclusions and I think most people here can do the same thing.
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emilysue1212
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- Location: Colorado
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lightstays
- Posts: 116
- Joined: Tue Sep 20, 2011 9:07 am
- Location: Americas
Comment
Hawkeye, I'm glad you had your experience of Sydney, was different then mine. Your experience however isn't going to change m experience or my conclussions about it. I know what my experience with candidates was, and if some of those candidates exaggerated their resume, of course Search would have inaccurate information. Just because candidates get briefed before hand (and they do) doesn't mean later they can't forget.
Again, though we're just repeating ourselves, and all you've demonstrated is that you had different candidates, and candidate experiences then I did. Though I really appreciate your response, my POV isn't the only one, and I'm glad you contributed yours. We need more not fewer of them.
I got the 20% figure from my Search Associate, I can't imagine why they would make it up?
Again we're just going to have to disagree with each other, as far as the start of the Search, or ISS fair, because all were doing is just repeating ourselves.
Again, there is no black list. I've been on head net and heads talking to each other does not constitute a black list. Would I want heads to be saying bad things about me on any medium, no but that doesn't rise to the level of being a black list.
Again, though we're just repeating ourselves, and all you've demonstrated is that you had different candidates, and candidate experiences then I did. Though I really appreciate your response, my POV isn't the only one, and I'm glad you contributed yours. We need more not fewer of them.
I got the 20% figure from my Search Associate, I can't imagine why they would make it up?
Again we're just going to have to disagree with each other, as far as the start of the Search, or ISS fair, because all were doing is just repeating ourselves.
Again, there is no black list. I've been on head net and heads talking to each other does not constitute a black list. Would I want heads to be saying bad things about me on any medium, no but that doesn't rise to the level of being a black list.
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wrldtrvlr123
- Posts: 1173
- Joined: Sat Feb 06, 2010 10:59 am
- Location: Japan
Re: Comment
[quote="PsyGuy"] Again, there is no black list. I've been on head net and heads talking to each other does not constitute a black list. Would I want heads to be saying bad things about me on any medium, no but that doesn't rise to the level of being a black list.[/quote]
Ooooo. Then you must know the secret emoticons and stuff? Are the heads all LOLing, TFFing and LMFAOing while they're burning teachers in virtual effigy? Or is there a virtual dartboard/dunk tank kind of thing going on?
Ooooo. Then you must know the secret emoticons and stuff? Are the heads all LOLing, TFFing and LMFAOing while they're burning teachers in virtual effigy? Or is there a virtual dartboard/dunk tank kind of thing going on?
Sure
Its a secure forum of the IBO. Here are the links:
http://www.ibo.org/informationfor/heads/
https://www.ibo.org/heads/headnet/index.cfm
So, I guess your really loving this moment right now???
Because Ive never met anyone who REALLY loved being proven wrong.
http://www.ibo.org/informationfor/heads/
https://www.ibo.org/heads/headnet/index.cfm
So, I guess your really loving this moment right now???
Because Ive never met anyone who REALLY loved being proven wrong.