Negotiating Salary- Take it or leave it?
Results of negotiation=big, fat nothing!
Here was my strategy- I would ask for a small amount to be added to the contract, see how they reacted, then ask for a medium amount, etc... Work them in stages. The offer did not include any allowance for shipping. I typed up an e-mail justifying my need for books (heavy) and my professional wardrobe (bulky). Included estimates from a couple of shippers. "No. School has a policy and standard contract" I cut the amount in half, and asked them to split it with me. "No. School has a policy..." I made a final attempt to add 200 bucks to either airfare, or settling in allowance, just to save face. "NO! School has a policy..." I made it to a fourth round, where I asked for some more specific language about dates of salary payment. They gave same response. I was discouraged and they were getting a little snippy about so many questions and "special treatment". I had to pass on offer, but we are still in touch. I am an experienced teacher, but new to international. I am in a bad position for leverage, but look forward to my second contract. It is late in the hiring season, whatever is in the next offer I will be taking. Thanks to all who responded, and the inclusion of this topic in the ISR homepage really generated a full spectrum of views. I understand more and more the deeper I get into this community.
I'm kind of divided on the topic of bargaining for more money. I guess I'm okay with a counter offer, but I could see how a counter to your counter offer (and on and on in many cases) would be a huge turn-off and an even bigger red flag. Is that person going to bargain duties at school? Is that person going to bargain sick days at school? Is that person going to bargain assignments, rooms, furniture, etc? Where does the bargaining stop? Someone who likes to bargain does not just "turn it off" once school starts.
I could also see asking for more money - hey don't we all think we should earn more money?
So... I guess I am a one-time counter offer person, but it needs to be realistic.
I could also see asking for more money - hey don't we all think we should earn more money?
So... I guess I am a one-time counter offer person, but it needs to be realistic.
ichiro, I could be way off on this, but... a school who didn't offer any shipping allowance? no settling in allowance? utterly nothing for relocation? I can see reasonable exceptions for this, for example the swiss schools that pay the big bucks saying, "we pay the big bucks." but... they are a rarity, not a rule. A school that thinks so little of its teachers as to have a policy of no allowance for bringing materials related to one's professional duties... do they REALLY care how professional their teachers are? or maybe they just don't care very much for their teachers. Either way, derPhysik, I don't think it was a loss for you to not go to this job. IMHO, a near miss can often be the best of all possible things.
I do think that in Western cultures, we don't really know the art of negotiation. My understanding of it, however, is that you absolutely never make an offer you don't intend to follow through on. I don't think you lost anything, not going to this school. (I mean the point is to do a job well, no? as a professional, treated as a professional, no? otherwise, what's the point? we can be treated badly at home and understand all the products in the grocery store.) What I've experienced of negotiation was a circling around and back to numbers, with flattery and conversation in between. But at no time would eitherparty have a number accepted and then try for more. That's it, you said you'd do y for x. With a worthwhile school, that I wouldn't try.
Having said all that, I'm with specialed on the idea that you don't want to come off as a "Bargainer" {gasp!} : } Please don't take the above as a recommendation to bargain like at a bazaar. I think all of this is pointing to the importance of having as much information you can going in. As much as people hate the placement agencies, they do give you an idea of the package on offer. I think you can reasonably debate placement on the salary scale if you don't agree with they way they've counted. But I don't think you can negotiate off the scale and have it go well in any event. And be afraid if they don't have a scale.
In any event, if the number is far from reasonable, they've told you what they think of you. The question is whether you'll accept them thinking of you that way. After you sign, you can be sure they'll be consistent and continue to treat you that way, well or poorly.
I do think that in Western cultures, we don't really know the art of negotiation. My understanding of it, however, is that you absolutely never make an offer you don't intend to follow through on. I don't think you lost anything, not going to this school. (I mean the point is to do a job well, no? as a professional, treated as a professional, no? otherwise, what's the point? we can be treated badly at home and understand all the products in the grocery store.) What I've experienced of negotiation was a circling around and back to numbers, with flattery and conversation in between. But at no time would eitherparty have a number accepted and then try for more. That's it, you said you'd do y for x. With a worthwhile school, that I wouldn't try.
Having said all that, I'm with specialed on the idea that you don't want to come off as a "Bargainer" {gasp!} : } Please don't take the above as a recommendation to bargain like at a bazaar. I think all of this is pointing to the importance of having as much information you can going in. As much as people hate the placement agencies, they do give you an idea of the package on offer. I think you can reasonably debate placement on the salary scale if you don't agree with they way they've counted. But I don't think you can negotiate off the scale and have it go well in any event. And be afraid if they don't have a scale.
In any event, if the number is far from reasonable, they've told you what they think of you. The question is whether you'll accept them thinking of you that way. After you sign, you can be sure they'll be consistent and continue to treat you that way, well or poorly.
and I'm sorry, but when someone gets snippy and impatient regarding clarification for me to sign Anything, it's a BIG RED FLAG to me. The same with evasion regarding an answer they should have READILY at hand, ie, dates of payment. They don't know?
derPhysik, ALL your leverage is before you sign. Keep the faith. Good will happen.
derPhysik, ALL your leverage is before you sign. Keep the faith. Good will happen.
I think the school was getting snippy because derPhysik kept asking for more, just in a different area each time. As it sounds, I would have been annoyed as well.
"Can I have $200 more?'.
"No, it's not in the handbook."
"Can I have extra shipping allowance?"
"No, it's not in the handbook."
"Can I have a greater flight allowance?"
"No, it's not in the handbook."
"Can I get...?"
"No, it's not in..."
Can you see where this is going? If one of my students did this to me, I'd give him/her a lunch detention! The school may/may not be cheap, but annoying is still annoying.
I also think one area has been overlooked here - morale. Let's assume someone bargains, and gets more money, allowance, or whatever. Now what happens when someone, who is better qualified finds out? I would be pissed and feel undervalued. It's almost like they are paying extra for someone who keeps pushing and pushing. What about experience and evaluations? If I have more experience, and better evaluations, I'm going to be very upset, and hurt to find out that this person gets more. How fair is that? My morale is now zero. Not a good thing at an international school.
Don't even try to tell me that that you would be okay with this (especially if you were on the losing side). Does a school want to risk this situation, especially with their core of experienced, and returning teachers?
"Can I have $200 more?'.
"No, it's not in the handbook."
"Can I have extra shipping allowance?"
"No, it's not in the handbook."
"Can I have a greater flight allowance?"
"No, it's not in the handbook."
"Can I get...?"
"No, it's not in..."
Can you see where this is going? If one of my students did this to me, I'd give him/her a lunch detention! The school may/may not be cheap, but annoying is still annoying.
I also think one area has been overlooked here - morale. Let's assume someone bargains, and gets more money, allowance, or whatever. Now what happens when someone, who is better qualified finds out? I would be pissed and feel undervalued. It's almost like they are paying extra for someone who keeps pushing and pushing. What about experience and evaluations? If I have more experience, and better evaluations, I'm going to be very upset, and hurt to find out that this person gets more. How fair is that? My morale is now zero. Not a good thing at an international school.
Don't even try to tell me that that you would be okay with this (especially if you were on the losing side). Does a school want to risk this situation, especially with their core of experienced, and returning teachers?
One shot
I think that one counter offer is OK. More than that and you're pushing your luck. In my current job I was offered an initial amount. I countered with an offer of higher salary. If that had been declined, I'd have made my mind up right there- take it or leave it.
If you're going to counter, be prepared to swallow your pride and accept the lower offer it they say 'no'.
Also, working in a district now where some teachers get extra stipends, stipends that other teachers don't even have a shot at does impact morale.
If you're going to counter, be prepared to swallow your pride and accept the lower offer it they say 'no'.
Also, working in a district now where some teachers get extra stipends, stipends that other teachers don't even have a shot at does impact morale.
US v. The World
But isn't that why many of us are stepping out of American schools? (begging the pardon of Brits or others) My personality is not suited to lock-stepping up the salary ladder for 25 years. I'm accepting a salary that is just about the same as what I'm leaving, but I expect some advantage on the tax front. After a 2 year contract, I expect to move up with this school, or look again for something better. The same process could be followed in the States, but there would not be as many choices or freedom. (Also, I've worked in urban, suburban and have always found more pay is always cancelled by higher cost of living)
As far as feeling bad that some teachers get more money than others- I wouldn't feel bad. Right now there are salesmen, lawyers, IT guys, etc. that make more money than me. Doesn't bother me. If you are in demand, and have special skills then you should be able to negotiate and EARN more pay. If I may boil it down; it has always bothered me (and gotten me in trouble with union officials) that a Physical Education instructor gets paid as much as me. Coming to school in shorts and watching kids toss a ball around is equal to what I do??!! We are all brothers and sisters but we also need to keep our house in order and understand that fairness cuts in two directions. I guess I'm getting off topic. I'm just saying that there are models and realities of unequal pay and you can buy into whatever system is best for you. Myself, I want to work hard, compete, and secure what I can in the market place. Negotiations and contracts are only business tools. They are not chiseled in stone by a a burning bush.
As far as feeling bad that some teachers get more money than others- I wouldn't feel bad. Right now there are salesmen, lawyers, IT guys, etc. that make more money than me. Doesn't bother me. If you are in demand, and have special skills then you should be able to negotiate and EARN more pay. If I may boil it down; it has always bothered me (and gotten me in trouble with union officials) that a Physical Education instructor gets paid as much as me. Coming to school in shorts and watching kids toss a ball around is equal to what I do??!! We are all brothers and sisters but we also need to keep our house in order and understand that fairness cuts in two directions. I guess I'm getting off topic. I'm just saying that there are models and realities of unequal pay and you can buy into whatever system is best for you. Myself, I want to work hard, compete, and secure what I can in the market place. Negotiations and contracts are only business tools. They are not chiseled in stone by a a burning bush.
May I humbly suggest, that after the wonder and beauty that was No Child Left Behind, PE teachers are one of the LAST teachers teaching creative problem solving (kinesthetically, on a playing field) and not how to find a correct choice out of four given? I went back to school with the first generation of these kids and they couldn't think their way out of a paper bag. And those were middle American kids, NOT kids from the inner-city. Those who are teaching in a content area that they haven't figured out how to reduce to one single number arrived at by a scantron, they are the last ones, at least in the US, with any freedom left to challenge students to think for themselves. And THAT would be why I'd like back out. Four letters: NCLB.
PE teachers are one of the few working with kids without knowing what the outcome of the given task will be in advance. Add creative writing and art to that list, also areas that have received severe cuts because they couldn't be measured with a bubble test and therefore couldn't possibly have held any value. Incidentally, if you work with kids who have PE, you should thank your lucky stars someone is a.) willing to do that work and b.) runs out the kids' energy for you, so that they can focus in your class.
I'm sorry, but you did lose me arguing that some teachers deserve less than others because of their content area.
PE teachers are one of the few working with kids without knowing what the outcome of the given task will be in advance. Add creative writing and art to that list, also areas that have received severe cuts because they couldn't be measured with a bubble test and therefore couldn't possibly have held any value. Incidentally, if you work with kids who have PE, you should thank your lucky stars someone is a.) willing to do that work and b.) runs out the kids' energy for you, so that they can focus in your class.
I'm sorry, but you did lose me arguing that some teachers deserve less than others because of their content area.
What's that saying, "Walk in my shoes before commenting", or something like that? PE teachers are out in the hot sun/cold doing the PE thing. In a lot of international schools, PE is almost exclusively outside. When it's 110 outside, I don't want to be out there all day. Redrider, I agree with the creativity part, although I think there is enough blame to be spread around both political parties (Race to the Top has issues as well. Does "Fire them all and let God sort it out" sound familiar?).
Derphysik- when you get to an international school, you will see how closely people have to work together/live (sometimes everyone lives in the same building, or general vicinity). Morale is much more important, and teachers see each other a lot more. Teachers talk, and tempers flare - does a school really want to throw gas on that fire? I can guarantee you that most of my fellow teachers would be livid to find out a new person makes more than they do (more pay for less experience). International teaching tends to magnify teacher interactions/relations - in a good and bad way. I'm also not sure I see school as a marketplace - a profession yes, but not a marketplace.
So I guess I am okay with a reasonable counter-offer (especially for unique circumstances/kids/etc.), but not okay with rounds and rounds of negotiations. I suspect you will find most schools are not interested in "round after round" either. But hey, what do I know. Negotiate away - literally.
Derphysik- when you get to an international school, you will see how closely people have to work together/live (sometimes everyone lives in the same building, or general vicinity). Morale is much more important, and teachers see each other a lot more. Teachers talk, and tempers flare - does a school really want to throw gas on that fire? I can guarantee you that most of my fellow teachers would be livid to find out a new person makes more than they do (more pay for less experience). International teaching tends to magnify teacher interactions/relations - in a good and bad way. I'm also not sure I see school as a marketplace - a profession yes, but not a marketplace.
So I guess I am okay with a reasonable counter-offer (especially for unique circumstances/kids/etc.), but not okay with rounds and rounds of negotiations. I suspect you will find most schools are not interested in "round after round" either. But hey, what do I know. Negotiate away - literally.
This exact issue has come up at my current school where some staff members are being treated differently by the board. It has caused all sorts of problems and bad feelings among staff members.
I don't believe you can compare the (teacher-teacher) and (teacher-plug in any better paying profession) relationships, especially at international schools. We work, play, socialize and live together and I can imagine all sorts of issues if there wasn't structure to the pay and benefit scale.
I also can't imagine negotiating salary at a job fair, maybe benefits but certainly not salary. What would stop the school from coming back midway through the year and saying you didn't fulfill this part of your contract and we are taking a portion of salary away from you this month. Don't laugh, this happened recently at a school in China over a very trivial, off campus issue involving students.
I do have experience in negotiating benefits to my family's advantage and it served me well but it was a pretty unique situation not shared by any other staff member. I doubt any negotiation would have occurred if any other family had been in the same predicament that we found ourselves in.
I don't believe you can compare the (teacher-teacher) and (teacher-plug in any better paying profession) relationships, especially at international schools. We work, play, socialize and live together and I can imagine all sorts of issues if there wasn't structure to the pay and benefit scale.
I also can't imagine negotiating salary at a job fair, maybe benefits but certainly not salary. What would stop the school from coming back midway through the year and saying you didn't fulfill this part of your contract and we are taking a portion of salary away from you this month. Don't laugh, this happened recently at a school in China over a very trivial, off campus issue involving students.
I do have experience in negotiating benefits to my family's advantage and it served me well but it was a pretty unique situation not shared by any other staff member. I doubt any negotiation would have occurred if any other family had been in the same predicament that we found ourselves in.
I'm just sayin'
All very good points, gentlemen. I do not have all the answers. You can point at any system and notice the problems. Does that mean the current system is without problems? I will stand my ground on PE. You can doll up the language all you want- they play sports with kids. You could hire anyone you want, and the kids would learn (self-directed) and get as much out of it if you had a PhD., or the Pope, or an 18 year-old.
As far as more/less pay causing friction- every office/jobsite/school I have been at in 30 years has had it's conflicts over pay. Are you telling me that every department chair you have EVER worked with deserved the position and the pay?!?!?!?! God bless you, and you are a very lucky teacher.
This could be another thread- but this is why the teaching profession suffers the slings and arrows. Why don't better teachers get more money? I know for a fact that I am not the best teacher in my school. I also know for a fact that I am not the worst teacher. Why do we all get the same salary?
As far as more/less pay causing friction- every office/jobsite/school I have been at in 30 years has had it's conflicts over pay. Are you telling me that every department chair you have EVER worked with deserved the position and the pay?!?!?!?! God bless you, and you are a very lucky teacher.
This could be another thread- but this is why the teaching profession suffers the slings and arrows. Why don't better teachers get more money? I know for a fact that I am not the best teacher in my school. I also know for a fact that I am not the worst teacher. Why do we all get the same salary?
I'm talking about a teacher, who has less experience, and less of a positive track record, getting paid more than someone who is more experienced and has a positive track record at the school. I would be very upset if a rookie teacher came in making more money than me. The school knows what I have done, and they know first-hand what my record is right now. A rookie teacher (and I remember my clueless days as a rookie) does not have a track record. The same could be extended to a 20 year international vet and a stateside 4 year teacher. I am in no way saying that the new teacher is not amazing, nor am I saying they could not be amzing someday. You hire on what you know from evaluations, and experience - not bargaining power/prowess.
Conflicts in an international school can lead to a mass exodus, maybe right in the middle of a school year. When you work overseas, you'll start to see this dynamic as people work very closely together, and often times depend upon each other. To find out you earn a lot more than me for less experience, and no track record at the school - this is insulting. The last thing an international school needs is more conflict. That one conflict could literally be the straw that broke many camels' backs (people deciding to leave).
I can see you are a bargainer. Please, use your bargaining strategies for your next job - maybe this will work for you. Out of curiousity, maybe a nice science experiment, try the round after round negotiations at all of your interviews. We can compare it to other interviewers and their success rate. Maybe some useful information can be gleamed out of it all!
Conflicts in an international school can lead to a mass exodus, maybe right in the middle of a school year. When you work overseas, you'll start to see this dynamic as people work very closely together, and often times depend upon each other. To find out you earn a lot more than me for less experience, and no track record at the school - this is insulting. The last thing an international school needs is more conflict. That one conflict could literally be the straw that broke many camels' backs (people deciding to leave).
I can see you are a bargainer. Please, use your bargaining strategies for your next job - maybe this will work for you. Out of curiousity, maybe a nice science experiment, try the round after round negotiations at all of your interviews. We can compare it to other interviewers and their success rate. Maybe some useful information can be gleamed out of it all!
for the record, specialed, I am unimpressed with the lot of them. Giving NCLB a new name and making it worse, well. I'd hoped at least for some common sense.
In my district, to qualify for Race to the Top funds and save jobs, our superintendent wanted us to agree (right before contract negotiations) to a very nebulous plan of "merit pay" (who decides? one person? a popularity contest? a scantron test? scantron tests in other content areas?) that would Only have been binding on the teachers, since there Was no detail in it. You need to understand that the idea of his saying, "Trust me!" when I'm not now being paid for provable, known facts is a bit funny. But not in a good way. And it wasn't that I'd topped out of the salary scale.
I think that idea of the "marketplace" is a disingenuous excuse to pay less, pure and simple. People that equate education to a business model happily pass over the fact that they don't at all function the same. And boy would they be mad at the treatment their kids would receive if they did!
derPhysik, if thorough knowledge of one's content area is not important, and students can learn on their own, what are any of us doing? Why don't we just go to Lord of the Flies and let them all teach themselves? Or is it only your content area that is valuable?
In my district, to qualify for Race to the Top funds and save jobs, our superintendent wanted us to agree (right before contract negotiations) to a very nebulous plan of "merit pay" (who decides? one person? a popularity contest? a scantron test? scantron tests in other content areas?) that would Only have been binding on the teachers, since there Was no detail in it. You need to understand that the idea of his saying, "Trust me!" when I'm not now being paid for provable, known facts is a bit funny. But not in a good way. And it wasn't that I'd topped out of the salary scale.
I think that idea of the "marketplace" is a disingenuous excuse to pay less, pure and simple. People that equate education to a business model happily pass over the fact that they don't at all function the same. And boy would they be mad at the treatment their kids would receive if they did!
derPhysik, if thorough knowledge of one's content area is not important, and students can learn on their own, what are any of us doing? Why don't we just go to Lord of the Flies and let them all teach themselves? Or is it only your content area that is valuable?