Did anyone mention that the OP should also consider the exchange rate? Love the heated debate about tiers here people, but yes, make sure you compare the conversion rate. Depending on where you work (say a Canadian international school, you may be compensated in Canadian dollars). I've seen teachers land jobs for 55K Canadian starting. Not sure how much that would be in your local currency. I'm also a China freak, there are perks to breathing metallic air!

PsyGuy wrote:
> @Glerky
>
> Wel they can get their money back if they request so early enough. For the
> same reason that you are in a better negotiating position at the end of the
> month to buy a car than you are at the beginning of the month, when a a
> dealer and sales agent wants to meet their revenue and sales quotas. Your
> going to spend $1000 on a fair at least plus the fee, and recruiters arent
> going to be nearly as needy and desperate (they wont be at all). Even if
> they do get an offer its going to be less generous than early summer when
> they have more leverage.
> Sure they will be rolling dice either way, but they can use loaded dice in
> their favor in the summer.
>
> I do do agree with your position from your last post regarding benefits of
> a fair. The opportunity to network and interview in advance could be
> significant when those late WE vacancies appear in summer. It would be
> expensive to go as a couple to BKK or LON for a couple.
>
> @sdakota
>
> Get your spouse an EU passport and get QTS. I suggested you start now,
> depending on the country it could take 6 months.
>
> It does depend on the country, most EU regions give PR at 5 years and
> citizenship at 7 years, citizenship by marriage is much less dependent on
> 'time", but again depends on the country.
>
> @whoamI?
>
> 1st tier ISs that want to hire fluent English speakers, and have to/need to
> hire those with work permission in the EU.
> Shekou IS is a 2nd tier IS Canadian IS could be a lower secondary or third
> tier IS, depending on location, none of them are elite tier, CIS (HK) could
> be considered lower 1st tier.
> ITs who get denied visas for lack of work experience happen because the IS
> didnt want to make it happen. The requirements are submission of a resume,
> its only the ISs that have poor relationship with their labor/immigration
> ministry that have more rigorous requirements. A resume can say whatever
> you want it to say.
>
> Yes, bottom tier ISs are bad, thats why they are in the bottom tier, there
> is nothing developmental about an adverse or punitive experience, unless
> you need to build more "character". Suffering professionally and
> personally is not a prerequisite for appreciation, nor is it conducive to
> growth of the individual. Its just an excuse lower tier ISs use to meet
> their staffing and recruiting requirements.
>
> Some ITs dont work hard at all a third tier dawdle and head bauble can be a
> walking dead appointment. Even if your getting 20K RMB (for example) your
> making 10 times more than a professional local, and all you have to do is
> show up, and read/follow along in a text book. There are ITs at WE ISs that
> have tenure and dont do much more than follow the prescribed text.

All I am saying is that if one can "survive" working in a bad place, then they can also survive working in a school that compensates fairly and considers teacher retention: McDonalds before stepping into the 5 star restaurant.

If you're offered a position in a higher level school, then consider taking the position. Know that you may be passing up an opportunity to test your limits as an educator.

Glerky wrote:
> Hi guys,
>
> I have been overseas awhile and have been hired several different ways and
> the one psyguy gives good advice but the one thing I disagree with him on
> is the quitting both the agencies. You've already paid for SA so keep it.
> If it is close or not too expensive why wouldn't you go to a fair? It isn't
> going to hurt and sometimes you can 'Wow!' someone in an interview. I have
> been at several tier 1 schools where couples were hired with little to no
> experience because they talked the talk and the admin ate it up. It can
> happen. It happened to me with 2 years experience and I got a job at a tier
> 1 school in Germany. Not trying to give you false hope but why not try.

I'd be interested to know which tier 1 schools are hiring couples with no experience. Please do share. You got in after 2 years experience. OP has 6 months.

I have friends who have 1 year experience in a 3rd tier school, applied to say, SheKou international school in Shenzhen China (probably a second tier school) got the job, but was hired and then fired because the Shenzhen government wouldn't give him a visa. Why? Because that person lacked experience. I also have a friend with 4 years experience who applied to the Canadian International School of (can't remember which city) cause her parents worked there, and she still didn't get hired despite her parents rec... and she teaches science and math. I think the Canadian International School of China (can't remember which city) is top tier. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Not sure if other countries are applying these same visa restrictions, but its something to note and make sure you have other "ducks quacking" in a row before you put all your eggs in a basket. But as a teacher with 6 month EXP, I really do think you have very limited options. But I'd still attend the July fare to get interview experience.

Like I've argued above: starting low isn't bad, and from my experience, it makes you appreciate even an upper third tier international school that much more. Here's the meat:

Teachers are busy everywhere, I am not going to make the argument that certain schools work you harder than others, what I am going to argue is this: teachers work hard everywhere, but some teachers are compensated better for their passion.

For example:

you work 60 hours a week at a tier 3 international school, making 45 000 Canadian dollars a year. For the month of January you work a total of 250 hours (adding in a few hours for those late late 12 pmers and desk sleep days (no time to change your underwear)). Your salary per month is about 3200 dollars. If you break your monthly salary down to hours, you're actually being paid a little bit more than a burger flipper at Burger King. It comes out to about 12.90 an hour.

I am arguing all teachers work HARD! Some teachers may even put in 100 hour weeks!!

Now imagine putting in 60 hours a week on a 80 000 dollar salary, with paid lunches, housing stipends, and a school that will give you a 2000 dollar bonus at the end of your second year, I've heard some schools help out with your mortgage payments, and some schools even pay for your taxes-so everything you make is net.

Now try NOT working 60+ hour weeks in a school that compensates you very well for your hard work?

Starting low isn't bad, and a lot of people on these forums make it seem that it's a last option, but why not make it your first? It seriously does wonders for your career, and it simply makes you appreciate what you have once you're in a school that actually cares about teacher retention. Most third tier schools care about admin retention, and thats about it.

I'll email you a list of schools which I think are third tier, will pay you on time, and give you a promotion to admin after about 2-4 years of service. You may even get a discount on a masters program, or paid time your full salary while you work on your masters full time.

Good luck!

Overhere wrote:
> sdakota, I think you raise some valid questions regarding your
> qualifications. However, I don't think you should sell yourself or your
> partner short. If you only aim low, then I can guarantee that you will end
> up at a "tier 3" school, whatever that is. You need to decide
> where you would be willing to teach, don't limit yourself, and then make a
> large number of contacts at a wide variety of schools. You never know what
> schools are looking for and whose desk your resume might fall on.

I agree to a certain degree. Some schools, however, cannot and will not hire teachers with no experience, because of visa regulations.

I would also argue that starting "low" isn't always bad. Correct me if I'm wrong, but you assertain not to "sell yourself short," but how can one truly appreciate a great school when you haven't had a job before that, well quite frankly, sucked?

Stepping stones are not a bad thing in life, but thats just my opinion.

Are there are any lower tier international schools listed on search associates? If not, I think you should consider getting a refund. Never used it myself, so I'm a little naive.

Sorry to be brutally honest, but I think you and the wife need to start at a bottom tier school, due to your experiences.

You've got 6 months experience that may count as something, but even then its only six months, which is going to probably make employers wonder "why was he only working for six months?" If you're headed to China, I can definitely recommend some schools that will hire you and your beloved. These schools are third tier, put they pay you on time, but perhaps not pay you enough for the the whippings and flacks of skin they will take off your back as you're overworked.

The reality is this: put your time in a bottom level school, and then when you get into a better school you learn to appreciate it better.

The plus side is this though: your wife is also a teacher, which will help you in most cases. Its easier for international schools to get a visa for someone if they are married to another teacher (makes arguing with the director a little easier, so says my Chinese colleagues). its easier to stick two teachers in a paid apartment by the school (though you'll probably be at a school that won't pay for your rent).

As for getting your ducks to quack in a row: bring all your original documents (degree, diploma, birth cert, sin number, transcripts etc etc). I've only ever taught in China, but visa regulations change like night and day here. Most of the schools I will recommend you too will either require Canadian or some sort of teaching certification. They will probably interview you, VIA Skype. You'll get hired, the wife will get hired, and everyone's happy.

Thus stated, now that I've made it clear that these third tier schools will hire anyone who breathes and has a teaching certification, what can you expect from these bottom barrel schools? I'll try to write out a list of pro and cons. Lets start with the heavy cons:

-heavy workload
-prepare to mark until you have blisters on your left and right hands
-Business is the usual; education is a second option
-mouldy hallways, mouldy classrooms, or both
-Pay for your own school supplies, cause your salary is too big.
-no central heating/ no ac in your classroom for hot days.
-your principal being powerless, and letting the local administration make all the decisions about everything (principal is simply a manager or "police officer" that enforces the rules from the local admin- essentially a puppet).
-Be prepared to work at schools that may have high turnover (50%-60% is not uncommon).
-poor compensation
-housing costs are deducted from your pay
-sketchy pay stubs that make no sense
-taxes that are deducted are all written in the local language , forcing you to either translate it yourself, or work with a very grumpy accountant back home!
-Expect to work 200 school days as dictated by the contract. My new school only works me 177 days, but i've been at a school that worked me 199 days of the year.
- expect to work saturdays (teach on saturday, YEAH- the kids love it too)!
-expect the contract to read like "if you break this, you'll be sent to the firing squad"
+But if you break it, at least in China, it really means nothing.
+- if you break it, and your principal really likes you, and you do things to help the "business" side of the school, he may beg for you to stay, offer you more money, give you less work.... basically, if you stay a long time at third tier international schools you can rake in 65k CAD a year with no take home marking. Thats if you do things to DEVELOP the BUSINESS, not if you sing songs to your kids, or if you actually teach. These third tier schools could care less if you did all your marking during class time. its all about the business. Some third tier schools just need a body in the classroom, seriously. On the flip side, if you're willing to go career at third tier schools, you need to be willing to step on the grunts who have no exp. Delegate all your work to the teachers, and then you can sit in your admin chair and simply police what the local admin wants-- 65k CAD a year; no take home marking, no prep! I’m not trying to bash on administrators here, but this is all from my exp (I’ve got admin experience from a third tier school).

What are the positives for working at bottom barrel schools? And perhaps my list isn't even the worst above, these are just my experiences
+get your experience
+you still get paid for your holidays and summer, unless yours school tries to make sketchy deductions from your paycheck. In that case, you argue with the admin.
+If you stay for a year, or 2 you may be offered a department head position, you may also be offered a position in foreign administration, which ultimately leaves you powerless, but gives you something pretty to pepper your resume with.
+ you become a good teacher really fast if you truly care about your kids. Most lower tier schools will work you to death because of your blocking schedule. 730-430 is pretty normal. Don't expect to leave at 3:00 like teachers do back home in public schools. 730-430 most days, sometimes 730-6 for your extracurriculars (oops this is a a negative)!!!! On the flip side, I know some top dog international schools will work you long, but at least you're being compensated for it!
+You might get decent health insurance, YOU WILL get local health insurance as its stipulated by law here in China. Doesn't mean its amazing, but the fact that you have it is a plus. International schools in China HAVE TO PAY FOR YOUR INSURANCE. Most lower tier international schools will argue this is something they do cause they care about their workers etc etc, even though its mandatory for the school to pay for it.
+think of it this way: if you wanna work in a high class restaurant, you need some experience in the service industry first- mcdonalds (third tier schools) will prove to be an excellent stepping stone!


I hope this advice helps- please PM me if you want me to rec you and your wife to a school that is third tier and will hire you in a heartbeat.

Good luck, and if my wordsmith raised any offence I sincerely apologize.

" would agree with learning the language in a region you intend to settle in. However, personally i do not disclose my language abilities to schools, staff, and leadership, as I do not want to become the got translator, interpreter, and general "go to" person when colleagues and coworkers need help. I prefer playing the naive foreigner."

Curious cogs are turning: are there any other reasons you wouldn't disclose?

Heard its pretty bad, but not as bad as some third tier lower schools will work you.

"Finally, you need to be responsible and ensure your long term wellbeing. I strongly caution against putting your investments in another person's name. I personally know someone who lost a house doing this, and I've heard of situations that are much worse. All your partner or someone in her family would have to tell you is, "take your belongings and never come back." If you wanted to push back against this, they could have you arrested. It's very unlikely that a Chinese court will side with you in any situation"

^ This is well put, couldn't have written it better myself!

I completed a 1 year contract in Wuhan China. Wuhan is coined as a 2nd tier city, but I love it here.

Another city that I would add to the list is NOT Wuhan, but Shenzhen! My current IS is located in Shenzhen, and the air quality is pretty good. You've also got train access to Hong Kong. The downside? Its expensive for China, but a decent school should pay for your accommodation, or at least provide you with a monthly stipend.

If you plan on settling down in China, I would highly recommend that you study Chinese. I've been studying Chinese full time for about two years now, and I'm pretty functional in the language. I can read, write (some), and carry on my relationship with my girlfriend in the language. Thus stated, I still make tons of mistakes, and I think I need another 4 years of dedicated study before I'm actually fully fluent. If settling down here is your thing, you should try to make an effort to learn the language. It actually does wonders for your resume here. I don't want to boast, but I've been in a MRT commercial where I spoke Chinese in Taiwan, and I was paid 2000 Canadian dollars for it. I've done modeling in China where I've put on some sneakers and smiled, and I've been handed 10 000 rmb in cash for 6 hours of work. Most of these "side" work opportunities stemmed from a recruiter hearing me speak laowai mando on the street.

From my experience with international schools, it isn’t uncommon for my principal to ask me to translate something, or to ask me to speak for news headlines when my school decides to run a ice bucket cancer donation. Its business as usual, and by having a white guy speak Chinese in front of the camera, your IS looks better. Some people may disagree with this statement (and please feel free to do so, I don’t mean to come off as discriminatory at all, but I’m stating raw facts here).

Its also a plus if your teaching contract stipulates that you can take on additional jobs, so long as it does not interfere with your performance at your IS.

Ok, sorry, time to answer your questions from above; here's the meat:

1) What would I change? Nothing really. Like the posters above mentioned, I did my time at a 3rd tier Chinese ran school and got my experience. Moved on to bigger and better things. My first IS had all Chinese students, and wow they were amazing kids. A little limited on creativity, but they certainly strived to impress. I was taken out 4 times for dinner by my grade 12 graduates. Its really quite rewarding. Thus stated, Chinese kids perform well on standardized tests. So if you're wokring in a Chinese owned IS, expect to be dropping tests. Our students at my old IS performed well on the diploma English examination, our average was 61, which is 1 percent shy of the BC province's 62.

Some Chinese ran international schools don't test plop, and try to inject creativity into the students etc etc, but then come exam time, you've got averages that are 34%..... not a very marketable number for an IS, right?

I'm not advocating that standardized testing is the best way to get results, what I am saying is Chinese students are used to tests. Thats where these kids thrive. They need tests. They need to be taught the basic structure of an essay. They need to be taught where to put reporting phrases when integrating a quotation. They need to be given several different transition words. Then they need to write 10 essays a year and receive feedback on said essays. You need a day to teach grammar every week, you need to spend several days teaching these kids vocabulary. You're essentially doing two things: you're an ESL teacher, who needs to hit the bullet points on your learning outcomes.

I guess what I would change is this: be more open to Chinese views of education if you are working in a 3rd tier international school that only enrolls Chinese kids. It'll make your life a lot easier as you do your time and move on. Don't try to be a hero, especially if you're someone with 0 experience teaching Chinese students.

Know that although the Chinese students are amazing, they are also very good at cheating. Its part of the tradition of "sculpt exactly what the master sculpts." So you'll get a lot of students who try to plagiarize etc.If you teach in a Chinese international school, crack down on cheating. Check water bottles for answers, make sure there aren't any Chinese symbols on desks (??????????

Secrets?
-Taobao.com. DON’T USE ENGLISH TO BUY THINGS FROM TAOBAO- OMG YOU WILL PAY 10 TIMES MORE, I’M NOT KIDDING! Turn off your VPN when you use Taobao, or else taobao will know you're a laowai and charge you more.

-Get a VPN if you want Facebook, but turn it off when you're shopping online

-Don’t be afraid to make friends with random locals on the street and ask them for their number. Get a QQ or Wechat account(or both). Chinese people LOVE the process of exchanging contact information. So if a beauty girl asks for your Wechat, don’t get too flattered now ;).

-Haggle everything. If you’re alone and trying to buy fruit from someone sitting on a pile of apples in a wagon, and they say 10kuai per pound, you throw back 5 kuai per pound. If you’re with a Chinese local, the seller will say 3 kuai per pound. I’m not kidding you, the prices here are insanely high for foreigners… because, as Psy guy mentioned, the laowai salaries here are insanely high. Most Chinese people clear about 2000 rmb a month. At your IS, if its decent, you should be making about 20 000 rmb a month. And that's just starting pay. Other IS teachers may find this number to still be too low. I know teachers who are clearing 29 000 rmb a month with paid housing. Though they have experience from back home, or leadership responsibilities.

-Download pleco dictionary on your phone.

-Find yourself a local honey, or make friends. Guanxi (relationships) is VERY important in China. If your Chinese local friend recommends you go somewhere to buy something, GO! You must not damage his face!

-Research face (??)?

-Bring ALL your important documents with you from Canada. Your original degree, your teaching certifications, EVERYTHING ORIGINAL needs to come. China changes visa regulations quite a lot. You may find yourself in a situation where you need your original documents. Everything. Transcripts, degrees, certifications, birth certs. Bring it all.


If you are a young, handsome, man you will probably get lots of attention from the local beauties here. I encourage you to get your feet wet, but be careful. Chinese people aren’t stupid; they know how much you make. Some local girls will only chase you for your wallet.

I’m not saying Chinese girls are easy, but I am saying that you, as a foreigner, are something different than black hair yellow skin Chinese men. You will attract a lot of attention. It is normal to be starred at constantly here. I don’t mind the attention ( I kinda like it), but some people hate it! This comment can also be gender reversed for foreign females- I have female friends who are foreigners who get a lot of attention from Chinese people.

China is safe place. I’ve only had my nice mountain bike stolen from me here. Other then that, its been safer than Canada in some ways. Never heard any gun shots in China yet!

Ps: pack a years worth of deodorant, as its really hard to find here in China.


Best of luck!

One for USD, one for RMB.

Anyone else care to toss in their 2 cents?

I live in China and plan to stay here for awhile. In the future I plan to invest in property in Canada ("I'm a Canadian citizen). Though my girlfriend's parents would love it if I bought a 75 year lease apartment in China...But I really don't see the logic in buying Chinese property (please feel free to critique or correct my arrogance, as I'd be interested to hear all your insights).

Here's the meat: my school's contract is written in USD, so my salary is in USD, but i have the option of taking a portion (or all of my it) in the "people's money" (rmb). What should I do?

I do plan on living in China for the next 20 years. Originally my logic was to take my salary in RMB and then exchange it when I go home to Canada. But then that means my salary will go through a total of "two" exchanges. I could always change my plan from investing in property in Canada to investing in "something" in China. The disadvantage of this idea is foreigners have NO RIGHTS in China. So in other words, my Chinese wife would "own" all of my investments. In fact, I would need a Chinese wife to buy anything "large" here (such as a business, property etc). Again, people, please feel free to correct my logic if my ideas are mistaken.

If I invest in Canada, and if I find a Chinese wife, I think half of my assets become hers, and half of her assets become mine. dui ma? So Canada seems to be a safer choice.

I don't know people, please help me! What would you do if you planned to stay in China for 20+ years (if not for your whole career)? I have no idea where I can put my money in China.

Thanks all for your insights.

Let the haters hate, you're missing out on one of the word's oldest cultures. =)

I''m being paid 45k CAD a year at my current school without rent related costs being covered. My school is a tier three, and I'll be moving up to a tier 2 next year. I've saved almost 30k, and I live in Southeast Asia.

Thailand!

Ah, I just googled this myself.

I want to clarify: this new visa rule, if passed, and enforced successfully will only be taking place in Beijing. Also, how is it possible to enforce this rule for teachers who already have a visa? What will happen to teachers who are approved for a visa?


http://www.thebeijinger.com/blog/2014/0 ... d-teachers