International Schools Review
Teachers Keeping Each Other Informed

Best Job Fair to Land a Tier 1 School

Reply

Postby PsyGuy » Sun Oct 06, 2019 4:11 am

@Heliotrope

We disagree.
We agree, 10 or more years.
We agree, it doesnt mean it doesnt. Its one irrational reason to attend fairs among many motivations.
Yes, you did you wrote it regarding recruiters and leaderships thoughts.
PsyGuy
 
Posts: 9163
Joined: Wed Oct 12, 2011 9:51 am
Location: Northern Europe

Re: Reply

Postby Heliotrope » Sun Oct 06, 2019 4:33 am

Ok
Heliotrope
 
Posts: 571
Joined: Sun May 13, 2018 1:48 am

Re: Best Job Fair to Land a Tier 1 School

Postby Nomads » Mon Oct 07, 2019 5:47 am

Psyguy,

"As I briefly discussed above, you seem to be one of those leadership that thinks your extremely limited HR experience (and recruiters and leadership tend to do HR very badly) allows you so profiler level insight into the quality of an IT."

Wow, you have no idea who I am or my HR background or experience yet you claim to have knowledge about me and how well or not I do the most important thing in my job. It does seem a bit hypocritical don't you think? What training do you have judging people based on their internet comments?

My insights come from twenty years of experience in hiring, additional coursework, and HR workshops. More importantly, my experience comes from seeing how the candidates do as teachers in my school. I have had successful hires from Skype and from face-to-face fairs and I have had unsuccessful hires in both formats, but I have a much higher success rate and the teachers stay longer from face-to-face fairs.

No one forces anyone to attend a fair, either as a candidate or a recruiter. While many have predicted their demise there are more candidates attending fairs than ever before, so it must be working for some of them.
Nomads
 
Posts: 151
Joined: Mon Nov 04, 2013 2:08 pm

Re: Best Job Fair to Land a Tier 1 School

Postby GrumblesMcGee » Wed Oct 09, 2019 2:40 am

I don't disagree with the - that one gets a better sense of a candidate in a face-to-face setting vs. an online one. Technology has certainly narrowed the gap, and I'd even suggest there are some things (e.g., a teacher's online presence, their capacity for handling said technology and its inevitable glitches) you can get a BETTER sense of online. But in-person will (probably) always have a slight edge for employers.

That said, it's 2019. It's international teaching (i.e. candidates are dispersed throughout the world). Teachers are busy. Teachers aren't millionaires.

Get over yourselves.

Anyone can be "on" for an interview, whether it lasts 30 minutes over Skype or 30 hours in Singapore. And if you really feel that you learned more due to that closer proximity, I fear many will allow it to substitute for rigorously scrutinizing candidates in other ways (especially considering that many offers are made during the time crunch of a fair).

You're digging for the tiniest of distinctions while leaving mother lodes of data unmined. Do you really check references? Look through portfolios? If it's about collegiality, are you actually calling current/past supervisers? Are you verifying degrees? If it's about protecting your students and upholding the highest standards, what are you REALLY doing with background checks? Even at GREAT schools, I've seen background checks handled in perfunctory ways. Maybe they run one, maybe they don't. Internationally, they're just asking for a police clearance. Do you understand what that means? I can just contact my current state and get a certificate that I have no record. That proves practically nothing.

My point is simple: if you're digging in your heels with your objection to "internet dating," it's not that you don't have a point. But you're a dinosaur, especially if you expect ITs to foot the bill (financially, emotionally, and in terms of time) for you to possibly get a marginal increase in your sense of who an IT is. At some point, you have to accept that hiring will always involve uncertainty. You can't have certainty about who a candidate is, and even if you could, you can't be certain of how things will unfold after they arrive. Accepting that, it's a cost-benefit - of what information you gain vs. what it costs. Thousands of dollars and loads of stress for candidates are not worth your sliver of unreliable impressional information.
GrumblesMcGee
 
Posts: 72
Joined: Wed Apr 17, 2019 7:53 pm

Re: Best Job Fair to Land a Tier 1 School

Postby Walter » Sun Oct 13, 2019 2:00 am

Grum, Grum, Grum, the most important decision a school leader will take is in the hiring of personnel. If I choose to hire face-to-face because I believe that doing so helps me to get the best possible teachers in front of students, then that is my prerogative.

Back in the day, before the advent of SEARCH, there were only three recruitment fairs: ECIS London; ISS in Boston/NYC/ DC or San Fran; UNI Iowa. Airfares back then were proportionally more expensive, international schools were spread out around the world and teachers still traveled. Now there are probably 30 fairs in virtually every region. It is far more affordable than it ever was for teachers to attend – all of which seems to undermine your claim that: “…it's 2019. It's international teaching (i.e. candidates are dispersed throughout the world). Teachers are busy. Teachers aren't millionaires.” Of course all this is teacher-choice and leadership-choice. No one is forced to attend a fair, but the idea that fairs shouldn’t exist because you don’t want to attend them is, I think, a little presumptuous on your part.

It was interesting that you chose to ignore the supportive comments that followed my own:
"As an international teacher for almost 20 years, I agree with Walter. Even with the added expense, it's a great way to get to know an Admin a bit and hear about the school culture to judge if the school is a good fit (and vice versa). I find that face-to-face interviews give me far more information than Skype interviews. I also believe I come across better in person. So while I hate "internet dating" thing, the "speed dating" concept at fairs is well worth it for me."

"Pretty much agree with everything @walter mentioned. A couple of the most extraordinary and exciting moments I can remember have been walking into a fair and knowing that I could be going almost anywhere in the world in the next few days time. I'm sure there are admin out there that see the fairs purely as a boondoggle and are the sinister beings psyguy describes. But in top tier schools, that hasn't been my experience. The admin I've worked for have had the utmost levels of integrity. Even if I didn't agree with their decisions, or even aspects of their vision at times, they were in education for the right reasons and there was a mutual respect that framed our relationship. I've met admin during interviews that don't match that description, and those are schools I've chosen not to work for."

"Agree with many of the points Walter raised, but with increased cost of living, pressure cooker-like work conditions, and reduced potential for savings, the so called dream schools are no longer the favorites of veteran teachers. I'd rather live in Budapest or Prague than in Paris or Bangkok."

Teachers, like administrators, find reassurance in meeting the people they are going to be working with. For many of them, this will be a life-shaping decision, and they want to be as sure as they can be that they are making the right choice. But I presume that you believe that they, too, are dinosaurs.

As for this part, it’s just silly straw man stuff. Frankly, I expect better from you:

"And if you really feel that you learned more due to that closer proximity, I fear many will allow it to substitute for rigorously scrutinizing candidates in other ways (especially considering that many offers are made during the time crunch of a fair).

"You're digging for the tiniest of distinctions while leaving mother lodes of data unmined. Do you really check references? Look through portfolios? If it's about collegiality, are you actually calling current/past supervisers? Are you verifying degrees? If it's about protecting your students and upholding the highest standards, what are you REALLY doing with background checks? Even at GREAT schools, I've seen background checks handled in perfunctory ways. Maybe they run one, maybe they don't. Internationally, they're just asking for a police clearance. Do you understand what that means? I can just contact my current state and get a certificate that I have no record. That proves practically nothing."

You move from a fear of something happening, to an assertion that something is happening and then having set that up that totem you proceed to knock it down as though that proves your point. So for your information, I check out all teacher candidates. And I understand at least as well as you do the flimsy value of a police clearance certificate.

Meanwhile, you ignore completely the point I made about hiring teachers at fairs who had never thought about working in my region and would, therefore never have sent in an application or made themselves available for Skype interviews. Why would I want to miss out on this talent? And why should teachers miss out on opportunities they hadn't thought of? Because in your opinion fairs are for dinosaurs? Maybe you ought to consider other people's opinions.
Walter
 
Posts: 321
Joined: Tue Feb 07, 2012 10:39 am
Location: UK

Previous

Return to Forum 1. From Questions About ISS & Search to Anything and Everything About International Teaching

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot] and 13 guests