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Getting a real job at a real school without experience

Getting a real job at a real school without experience

Postby Malarazz » Wed May 08, 2019 6:39 am

What are the chances I'll be able to do that next hiring season? By a "real" job and school, I mean anything where future hiring directors at tier 2 and tier 3 schools will look at my resume and say "okay, he has two years of international teaching experience." It can be a bad school, it can be poorly run, it can be at a location most people consider undesirable. It just has to count as real experience. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe the main ways we determine what is a "real" school is curriculum and accreditation? If that's the case then yeah, what are the chances I'll be able to get a job offer from an accredited school or from a school with an IB or British curriculum?

Basically, I'm looking to circumvent the two years teaching at home guideline, and I'm wondering what the odds are that I'll be successful. It doesn't have to look quite as good on the resume as the two years of teaching experience in the US, it just has to be an acceptable substitute.

So about me... I'm 27 and male. I'm a Math and Econ double major through a decent state university in the US. I'm planning to get the provisional license in Math through the state of Massachusetts this July. I worked 5 years in the business world as an actuary. I'm bilingual (Portuguese) and an expert on MS Excel, but I'm assuming these things don't matter much as far as getting a job offer. I have two years of experience tutoring Math in college, and two years of experience teaching private English classes in Brazil.

Not sure how much references matter, but mine are pretty medium. Not good, but hopefully not too bad. I can ask my former manager at my actuary job here in Brazil. Then I can ask two of my former students (1-on-1 private ESL classes here in Brazil). And lastly, I could get one of my coworkers-turned-friends who I stayed in touch with from my actuary job in the US. I suppose I could reach out to my former manager at my actuary job in the US to substitute one of the references listed above, but that would be supremely awkward. I haven't talked to her in years.

As far as locations, I'm willing to go anywhere in Asia and anywhere in Latin America. I am not willing to go to the Middle East or Africa, and I'm assuming I don't stand a chance in Europe with no experience.

The main reason I ask this question is to know if I should have a backup plan. Specifically, I'm considering doing an in-country CELTA in September, and should I whiff on the IT hiring season (Sep through Dec I'm assuming?) and not land any job offers at a real school, I can at least do TEFL for a while. But of course, if I do land a job at an international school, the CELTA will be practically worthless.

What do you think? How is it looking for me?
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Re: Getting a real job at a real school without experience

Postby SparkleMotion » Wed May 08, 2019 8:28 am

I only have experience working abroad in business and as a TEFL teacher, so take what I have to say with a grain of salt. Most of what I’m about to write is based on research and not real experience, so other teachers will be better equipped to respond. That being said —

I think CELTA will not be entirely useless, because the type of schools who will pick up a teacher at this point in your career will likely be “international” schools and have a relatively high percentage of ESL students. If you haven’t taught this group before (though you mention having some ESL students), especially since you’d be teaching Math, you may find yourself ill-equipped for the task if you don’t have some ESL training. A CELTA could make you more attractive to the type of schools where you will be most competitive right now. It won’t matter down the road but it may help you get your foot in the door.

From what I understand, home country experience is valued very highly. I know it sucks and, believe me, I don’t want to do two years in US public schools either. Your references from your previous career will not be regarded with much seriousness by prospective international schools as they don’t pertain to your experience as a teacher. You’d be better off even teaching at a summer camp or the like and getting a reference that pertains to your teaching ability and your experience with your target age group and teaching your subject. Maybe look for a summer STEM camp that you can work? Student and colleague references are also not regarded very highly, so if you have an ESL supervisor reference I would go with that rather than teaching out to students.

The answer to most of the “what are the odds” questions are pretty similar: you will be as competitive as the market will bear. You’re not going to be represented by Search unless you are represented as an “intern” and ISS won’t represent you either. You’ll be relegated to those jobs you can locate through free job boards / low cost, lower quality boards and the jobs you can hunt down on your own. That’s not to say you won’t find the arrangement you’re looking for this way - in fact - you likely will. You’re openess to all of Asia and even low-paying posts in South America really increase the number of schools that will be looking for a math teacher and may find themselves in a position next year to compromise and take on a newly qualified teacher.

For China, you need two years of experience or a TEFL / CELTA to get your visa approved - so if China is a main target I would move forward with a TEFL of some kind to cover that base.
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Re: Getting a real job at a real school without experience

Postby FV2020 » Wed May 08, 2019 9:24 am

If living in Brazil is an option, you could try to get hired as a local hire (lower package) if any last minute vacancies pop up in the fall, or if there are any “runners” who abandon their posts mid year.

You could also consider schools in Venezuela. Obviously there is a very difficult situation there now, and it is a huge risk to go there, but that means it is difficult for them to fill vacancies, especially for schools that are 3rd tier.

Since pay is less of a concern you could also try to sign up with Search as an intern.

As far as odds go, you never know until you try. Teaching domestically would be a better back up plan than ESL abroad. With a year of ESL you would be right back in the same position next recruitment cycle.

Another sort of “out of the box” option would be to teach in public schools in Hawaii or New Zealand. Both would give you a different cultural experience than Massachusetts, and both have teacher shortages. Of course these would not provide IB experience. New Zealand will currently pay $5,000 in relocation costs.
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Re: Getting a real job at a real school without experience

Postby SparkleMotion » Wed May 08, 2019 1:30 pm

^ good advice. Just note that with a provisional license you would not be able to teach in New Zealand. Hawaii would also require you to obtain their license as provisional licenses don’t transfer.
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Response

Postby PsyGuy » Fri May 10, 2019 8:04 am

You have pretty low expectations, the rule is there is a job for everyone if you will accept anything. You would have too anyway with your proposed plan. The MA provisional credential will only allow you to teach in MA, and they arent really hurting for maths and econ DTs. I disagree with @FV2020, NZ wont accept the MA provisional credential towards registration, and neither will HI, or anywhere else in the US. You cant get QTS with it either. Its really only valid outside of MA for IE. That said there are a lot of lower tier and hardship locations that will be perfectly happy with an MA provisional credential and an IT with a maths background (less so with economics), and youve identified that you would be fine in the LCSA and the hardship parts of Asia.

Most of the real ISs and even the ones that arent are accredited, at least in so far as they are accredited by someone, typically whatever the local MOE is. Generally ESs just have a business license (if that) and dont pursue or have accreditation, but there are ISs that wouldnt count that do, though those are less common. Curriculum is surprising a vague term in IE. It can really mean anything, and while something like IB is practically a guarantee that youre at a real IS, in terms of US and UK NCs, anyone can say they teach those, even if all it means is they hired some US or UK ITS and they teach content. Its less common when you ahve some kind of SLL program, but there are some very dodgy ISs (albeit they are ISs and would likely be acceptable experience) that really dont do much to prepare students for the exams.
If you want to get down to the real practical determinations of what IE experience would count, its really do they operate during the day (8-4) as an IS, and are you teaching some form of subject matter content in something that looks like a classroom. Meet those two criteria and it probably counts, even if the IS isnt accredited and their curriculum is whatever they say it is.
You very likely arent going to get anywhere near an IB IS, youre mostly looking at US and UK NSs. Your probability is more than likely, Id put coin on you getting an offer somewhere.
Bilingual has some value, if you find a location (Macau, etc.) that has Portuguese and office proficiency isnt worth anything, its assumed that an IT is proficient in office suite apps.
Your experience isnt worth anything, tertiary tutoring doesnt count, and private ESOL doesnt count. You would be a noob intern class IT with barely a credential and a degree.
Your references wont matter much if at all, your tutoring and ESOL references would matter more than your actuary references, and those arent very strong anyway. It wouldnt be bad at all finding a camp or something, even substitute/supply work for a reference would be valuable.
Student references arent worth very much if anything on their on. Colleague and coworker references arent worth much if any more. ISs want supervisor references.
You have almost zero chance for the EU.

You should ABSOLUTELY have a backup plan. Mainly your backup plan will be your best option at actually getting into an IS. Youre a more logistically stronger candidate as an LH than an OSH, and the ESOL gets you in country and then youll have access to local vacancies that just arent advertised on the circuit.

Peak recruiting doesnt start until January and ends in early February. Early Recruiting starts around October/November, but youre not going to really be a participant except at the third tier ISs who prey on ITs who dont know any better. You arent going to really see much action on your resume until the Spring hiring stage in the recruiting cycle which starts around April.

I disagree with @SparkleMotion the CELTA is worthless and if you wanted too you could get an MA credential in ESOL cheaper and with a lot less work than a CELTA. The CELTA isnt going to give you anymore or better experience than the 2 years of ESOL and tutoring you already have. They know you dont freeze up in front of a classroom and know which side of the room to stand on.

Generally, the consensus among the major contributors is that two years post credentialing experience in DE is the optimal pathway. Thats saying a lot, it may very well be the only declaration we actually have a consensus about. However, as described above, you really dont have that option available to you, unless you have a local private/independent DS thats willing to hire you.

Cant really disagree with the summer camp idea, especially for the summer, but its getting late and you would have to push your testing for the MA credential forward a few months and might though off your opportunity to find something. Were it me, Id scrap the camp idea, get the credential and this summer see if you can find something in IE, and if you cant then try to do the ET option, aiming for a city with a large IE presence, that with your MA credential and background you can keep your senses open to a local IE opportunity. You can do that and still recruit in the 2019 cycle.

SA will take you as an intern which gets you the database and into the BOS and SF fairs and thats really what will matter, though you could also get into one of the regional dump fairs as well.

Disagree with @SparkleMotion, the visa requirements for China will be satisfied with the MA provisional credential, you dont need the CELTA.

Agree with @FV2020, Venezuela is a potentially strong option for you. Though again, you cant get registration in NZ with the MA Provisional credential, and HI wont accept it either. The only option for you in HI if you were to go, is a permit.
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Re: Getting a real job at a real school without experience

Postby Malarazz » Tue May 14, 2019 8:53 am

Great answers. Thanks for the advice, everyone.

@FV2020 wrote:
> You could also consider schools in Venezuela. Obviously there is a very difficult situation there now, and it is a
> huge risk to go there, but that means it is difficult for them to fill vacancies, especially for schools that are 3rd tier.

Venezuela is an interesting option. Honestly, I wouldn't mind petty crime (like robbery) and the poor infrastructure. I would only be really concerned with kidnapping, specially since I've read it's rampant over there and I would stick out like a sore thumb as a white blond guy who only speaks intermediate Spanish. Still, it's worth a thought, specially if I could be fast-tracked into a 2nd or 3rd tier school, or an IB school, because like you said, they may be having trouble hiring teachers due to the current situation. That raises a question though, would international schools prefer to hire an American teacher with no experience licensed in the US as opposed to a local teacher with many years of experience who speaks English fluently? Why is that?

@FV2020 wrote:
> Since pay is less of a concern you could also try to sign up with Search as an intern.

How does that work? What are the differences between being hired at an international school as an intern as opposed to being hired at a worse/lower-tier school as a real teacher? Which experience would look better on the resume two years from now?

@PsyGuy wrote:
> Generally ESs just have a business license (if that) and dont pursue or have accreditation, but there are ISs that wouldnt
> count that do, though those are less common. Curriculum is surprising a vague term in IE. It can really mean anything,
> and while something like IB is practically a guarantee that youre at a real IS, in terms of US and UK NCs, anyone can say
> they teach those, even if all it means is they hired some US or UK ITS and they teach content. Its less common when you
> ahve some kind of SLL program

What are ESs? What's an SLL program?

@Psyguy wrote:
> You should ABSOLUTELY have a backup plan. Mainly your backup plan will be your best option at actually getting into an
> IS. Youre a more logistically stronger candidate as an LH than an OSH, and the ESOL gets you in country and then youll
> have access to local vacancies that just arent advertised on the circuit.

I'm assuming LH means local hire and OSH means overseas hire? So are you saying that if I live, for example, 1 year in China as an ESOL, that would open up better IT-math opportunities than if I simply searched for those opportunities online? It's an interesting idea. To that point, I'm assuming I also count as a local hire in Brazil, as @FV2020 suggested, even if I won't be living in Brazil at the time that I search for jobs? I'm an American and Brazilian dual citizen.

@Psyguy wrote:
> Early Recruiting starts around October/November, but youre not going to really be a participant except at the third tier
> ISs who prey on ITs who dont know any better. You arent going to really see much action on your resume until the Spring
> hiring stage in the recruiting cycle which starts around April.

Aren't those dodgy third tier ISs that no one else wants what I'm shooting for though? Because like you said, everyone else is flocking to the better third/second tier ISs, so those schools would rather hire someone who has real experience and not me.

@Psyguy wrote:
> and if you cant then try to do the ET option, aiming for a city with a large IE presence, that with your MA credential and
> background you can keep your senses open to a local IE opportunity. You can do that and still recruit in the 2019 cycle.

Yeah, I think you're right, that sounds like the best plan. How would I go about figuring out which cities have a large IE presence?

Again, thanks everyone for your suggestions.
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Reply

Postby PsyGuy » Tue May 14, 2019 11:05 am

@Malarazz

1) Get K&R insurance, but its pricey. I wouldnt worry about it though, youre not the target, your not a business executive or anything, youre just an IT and there really isnt any coin in it in taking and holding you for ransom.
Its reasonable that one of the upper tier or mid tier ISs either the BS or AS could be interested, since your background and credential, even with a lack of experience would be maths. Id negotiate for a 1 year contract so you can exit peacefully and with that reference move into an upper tier IS wherever you want, and you can pretty much stomach anything for a year.

The OSH hire in your scenario has a credential, otherwise they wouldnt, but there arent any expat LHs just kicking time on the ground in Venezuela, you go with a purpose, and when that purpose disappears, so do you. Venezuela is the place backpackers low on coin go to stretch out the summer. There isnt a pool of expat LH talent to really draw from.

2) Its pretty easy you go to the SA website:
https://www.searchassociates.com/
Click on "New Candidates" on the left hand bar, then click the "Lets get started" button in the middle of the screen, and when you get to step 2 it will ask you if you ant to apply as an "Intern" push that button, or you can just email Diana Kerry, shes the intern associate, her bio page and email link is here:
https://www.searchassociates.com/associ ... ana-kerry/

Intern positions (not to be confused with an intern class ITs) generally fall into two categories. Either they are at ISs with actually developed intern positions, which are rare, and usually found at upper tier ISs. They are generally limited to one and in rare instances 2 whole ISs positions which can vary by subject or in the second category they are little more than cheap labor for what would otherwise be a regular IT appointment.
The first category are generally standard IT appointments at the lowest step on the salary scale and typically include a full or partial OSH package (the difference is mainly that an intern appointment wont sponsor housing and other allowances for a family) meaning you will likely get the same flights, housing, insurance as a standard IT appointment. You might find that you dont get some minor benefits such as shipping or shopping, but youll get the major benefits. The other difference is that the IS will provide you soem form of mentoring and resourcing for a noob IT. The drawback, is that you may not be the TOR, but be a co-IT or a TA. In the latter category, the ISs that are just trying to get cheap labor, they are trying to get you cheap, so if they can offer less in the OSH package they will try to. Usually they try to cut benefits like one way flights, or no bonuses, etc.
The main difference is that you can get into better ISs as an Intern that wouldnt otherwise look at you. It depends what you do, if your an intern and your only co-IT (Co-Teaching) "rotating" or worst treated as a TA (Teaching Assistant) and if you stick with that on your resume and description, its going to be worth less than an intern who has their own classroom and is a TOR (Teacher of Record), but if intern is just an HR designation, than there is no reason to use the term intern on your resume at all, and you can just list it as teaching experience.
If your the TOR its the same as a regular appointment. An intern at a upper tier IS is better in terms of networking and opportunities than a regular appointment at a bottom tier IS. First, that intern appointment might turn into a regular appointment after your two years, assuming leadership likes you. Second, the reference from a upper tier IS, and just the entry on your resume is marketable, a recruiting IS might not even get to the point of what did you actually do until an interview, and at that point you can spin the experience to your advantage.

3) ES = English School, specifically "cram" schools and private language schools such as Hagwon and Eikaiwas. You get into the grey area of bilingual EAP (English for Academic Purposes) ISs/ESs. Basically the ESOL market.

SLL = School Leaving Level, the last phase that completes secondary education in a K12/KS (Key Stage), or K-12 in the UK NC (National Curriculum) that typically awards a certificate equivalent to a "Diploma". Typically in IE this includes IGCSE, A* levels (technically the Advance Certificate, compared to the General Certificate), AP (does actually have a diploma program organized by the College board, but any type of AS diploma) and the IB Baccalaureate (typically the Diploma program in IB). Less common is the French Baccalaureate from FSs, the Abitur from Swiss/German ISs and the European Baccalaureate from a handful of Euro-Schools. Finally, includes whatever the regional MOE (Ministry of Education) diploma is for a given location.

LH = Local Hire
OSH = OverSeas Hire

4) No, what I'm saying is if your in China, somewhere like Shanghai, or Guangzhou, or Beijing, that your in the right place, and all you have to do is wait until the right time. That could be anywhere from a day to a year or more and tha that some IS needs a maths IT and they dont have the time or the resources to recruit for one as an OSH, so even though your resume is lite, you could start at the IS tomorrow, and that availability beats experience in that scenario, because the IS you would be moving too just had their maths IT quit because the recruiter or leadership over sold the appointment. Your going to find this vacancy though recruitment channels that just wouldnt be available to someone who wasnt a local. Could be though a local ES, a community paper, maybe someone you drink with at a pub.

5) Depends how your recruited, where from and the tier of the IS. Upper tier ISs are going to follow the policy and if the policy says your recruited from outside Brazil youre an OSH than thats what you are. Lower tier ISs will generally try to get you the cheapest they can, so even if your recruited as an OSH, they may very well treat you as a LH no matter what the situation is.
The only real consistency is in the case of a premium repped candidate who is recruited at a fair. If youre a Chinese IT and you go to BKK or BOS, and another IS from China makes you an offer, th general understanding is you still get an OSH package.

6) Yes but they arent shooting for you. They are dodgy third tier ISs trying to get to ITs in October and November (which is early recruiting) before they get an accurate idea of their marketability before peak recruiting and fair season. Preying on ITs who dont understand anything about IE and really just want the stress and angst to go away. These ISs spin the approach with flattery, and playing on the ITs ego, and trying to make them feel special, and overselling the comp and the environment.

7) Its not hard, you want a large region, thats generally considered a hardship, and has a lot of ESs. Typically the large capital cities in those regions. China jumps out, Vietnam, Cambodia, Myanmar, the ME. China is probably the best candidate. Its huge, has a lot of demand, choice of three capital cities plus numerous secondary cities, many ISs alongside ESs. It takes a long time to get a visa, relative to other regions. You go to one of the many job boards (such as Daves ESL cafe), you get a job, you get a visa. You fly over there, get an apartment, start putting together secondary side hustles, some private students, meanwhile you keep your eyes and ears open for a local maths vacancy, you meet for an interview, they typically hire on the spot. You switch over your employer on your visa. Have a talk with the ES that originally hired you (you could even stay on at a reduced capacity if you like them).
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Re: Reply

Postby GrumblesMcGee » Tue May 14, 2019 12:58 pm

PsyGuy wrote:
> 2) Its pretty easy you go to the SA website:
> https://www.searchassociates.com/
> Click on "New Candidates" on the left hand bar, then click the
> "Lets get started" button in the middle of the screen, and when
> you get to step 2 it will ask you if you ant to apply as an
> "Intern" push that button, or you can just email Diana Kerry,
> shes the intern associate, her bio page and email link is here:
> https://www.searchassociates.com/associ ... ana-kerry/

She won't respond. I've got a group of ITs working on a website all about this, and Diana Kerry was one of the Search folks that was reached out to (repeatedly) and completely nonresponsive.

My anti-Search bias is pretty clear, but I'll recognize the other side of the coin that PsyGuy and some others have echoed: they have the database, like it or leave it, etc.

For me, Search is a nonresponsive exploiter making money off the backs (and fronts, in the case of non-intern-class) of ITs, and they don't deserve your patronage. For many others, they're an acceptable evil. For a few deluded souls, Search is actually a positive force in IE. It's all up to how you balance principles/convenience/FOMO (i.e. whether you're willing to say no to paying Search and/or feeding Search a hefty commission and risk having to work harder in your search or even miss out on an occasional opportunity).
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Re: Getting a real job at a real school without experience

Postby shadowjack » Tue May 14, 2019 1:13 pm

Get the certification. Teach two years of Math in the States. Then go overseas. You will end up at better places, you will have classroom management experience that will serve you better than what you will learn overseas in most cases, and you will have far more legal rights.
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Discussion

Postby PsyGuy » Wed May 15, 2019 3:28 am

@SJ

Not really a practical route. That MA provisional credential is only worth anything in the US in MA, and unless the LW knows someone who can hire them its not going to wow anyone in MA, they just arent hurting that badly for DTs (even in maths). The LW isnt even in MA, so they would have to move, on their own coin just to interview and it would be a stroke of luck to get an appointment. They cant take the MA credential anywhere else in the US.
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Re: Getting a real job at a real school without experience

Postby sid » Wed May 15, 2019 12:41 pm

If you’re willing to go somewhere risky that still has real schools, look for countries that have recently lost stability. Sri Lanka and Burkina Faso come to mind at the moment. With recent developments there will be teachers making sudden departures and newly signed teachers who back out.
Alternatively look for countries newly rising out of conflict, trying to rebuild. They have a tough time recruiting.
I got my first job in a very similar way, no experience at all, but the school was happy to have someone who was happy to be there. I built my cv and moved on. Good luck!
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Re: Getting a real job at a real school without experience

Postby shadowjack » Wed May 15, 2019 1:08 pm

@PG - they should cough up the 6K, do TeachNow, get their certification, then either teach domestic or overseas.

Malarazz - just to share, if you are not certified, many schools won't hire you. Some schools hire interns, but you are more risky to them - older, more set in your ways, have no teaching experience, and have made $$ so not making $$ might be painful for you - and disgruntled employees make other employees disgruntled.

Look into TeachNow. It's one year. Get the certification. Teach domestic for two years. Then go overseas - it will be so much nicer for you!
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Reply

Postby PsyGuy » Sat May 18, 2019 6:24 pm

I dont disagree with @Sid, but would add that this really applies to any hardship location, simply to different degrees. While finding a position somewhere undergoing extreme turmoil such as Venezuela is going to have issues maintaining staff and recruiting, you can find the same issues in places like China as well. I would also add Turkey to @Sids mentionables.

I concur ith @SJ, that most of the ISs on th circuit and even many that arent wont hire you without professional credentials, but there are also bottom third tier ISs that someone with a maths degree and background even without a credential would be welcome even without experience.

@SJ

How dos that work? Lets skip the Teach Now/Teach Ready program in itself (Teach Ready would be better since its only got a one week field experience requirement, vs. Teach Nows 3 months). They get a DC credential, they still need to get a job somewhere in the US, and they have to convert that DC credential into an appropriate applying state credential before they even do a districts online application, because a principal isnt going to appoint someone out of state who doesnt have a local credential and doesnt attend an interview in person. At least in IE you can interview readily online, and you dont have to go chasing 50+ state credentials. Even then none of those US DSs in regulated DSs are going to provide you any type of package outside of insurance, and salary. Your doing the whole move and cost on your own coin, even the dumpiest third tier ISs will provide something of an OSH package. Finally, that plan is a three year plan. The LWs plan is 3 months.

BUT yes, thats the consensus, professional credentialing and 2 years post credentialing DE experience. Though the LW with their background would be better of doing a SCD program in the UK, since their background is maths

The no one will hire the LW without a credential is moot, they will have a MA credential.
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Re: Getting a real job at a real school without experience

Postby Thames Pirate » Mon May 20, 2019 1:39 am

If you are certified, you can get a job at a decent school, especially in math. If you are also certified in econ, that's a huge plus. You won't get a Tier 1 or anything, but there is no reason you can't get an IB school in an interesting place. Don't feel like you need to scrape the bottom of the barrel. Be realistic, but don't assume that there is a huge ladder. Those who tell you that you have to pay your dues are only partially right. Perhaps there was a conventional track once upon a time, but as you probably well know, there are many ways to get somewhere that are not the traditional path your predecessors took.

I knew a maths teacher who got a Tier 2 school in Malaysia just out of uni. She did 2 years, then ended up at a Tier 1 in Europe for three before getting a HOD job at a newer school. She never taught domestically or at garbage schools or hardship postings.

Be realistic, but don't rule out applying for something just because someone on a forum told you that you shouldn't bother.
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Re: Getting a real job at a real school without experience

Postby Malarazz » Mon May 20, 2019 5:50 pm

Again, thanks everyone for your comments.

@Thames Pirate wrote:
> If you are also certified in econ, that's a huge plus.

Wait, is it really? So if I get a double credential in MA in Math and Econ, that would be a lot more helpful than a single credential in Math? I've never considered that, but I'm sure it can't be that hard to add a second subject on the credential. And if you're right that it's a huge plus, then it should definitely be worthwhile to try doing that, whatever the extra work may be.

@sid wrote:
> If you’re willing to go somewhere risky that still has real schools, look for countries that have recently lost stability.
> Sri Lanka and Burkina Faso come to mind at the moment.

Interesting suggestions, I'll keep that in mind, specially Sri Lanka. I'm sure it would be safer than Venezuela.

@shadowjack wrote:
> Get the certification. Teach two years of Math in the States. Then go overseas.

Unfortunately, that is not an option. For one, there are the logistical problems like PsyGuy talked about. But also, I really do not want to live in the US any longer than the 2-3 months it will take to get credentialed. To the point that if my only option to become an IT was to do the 2 years domestic, I would just forget about it and do TEFL instead, and go live in Asia or Latin America. That being said, based on my research, everyone talks about how IT is a much better career, and it honestly sounds more fun too (besides the longer work hours). So I'd rather give it a fair go and hopefully I'll be able to find a job somewhere that is an acceptable substitute for those 2 years domestic. And if for some crazy reason I can't find one, I'll get a CELTA and do TEFL for the foreseeable future and maybe in 8 to 10 years I'll decide I've had enough and come back to the US and finally do those 2 years domestic. But definitely not now.

@PsyGuy wrote:
> Its reasonable that one of the upper tier or mid tier ISs either the BS or AS could be interested, since your
> background and credential, even with a lack of experience would be maths.

Oh man, sorry but all these acronyms are throwing me for a loop. I understand ISs means International Schools, but when you say "either the BS or AS could be interested", what does that mean? What is the SCD program, from a google search it appears to be the UK equivalent of a PhD? And I understand LW refers to me, but I'm just curious what it stands for?

@Psyguy wrote:
> China is probably the best candidate. Its huge, has a lot of demand, choice of three capital cities plus numerous
> secondary cities, many ISs alongside ESs. It takes a long time to get a visa, relative to other regions. You go to one
> of the many job boards (such as Daves ESL cafe), you get a job, you get a visa. You fly over there, get an apartment,
> start putting together secondary side hustles, some private students, meanwhile you keep your eyes and ears open
> for a local maths vacancy, you meet for an interview, they typically hire on the spot.

I'm starting to like that plan. Move to China right around November after I get my MA credential(s) and teach English. Be on the lookout for IT positions from December up until April or whenever it is that recruiting tends to end. Maybe I'll get very lucky like Thames Pirate's friend and get a job at a tier 2 school in Malaysia at that point. Otherwise, I'll hope find a job at a worse school and/or worse location. Either way, I'll tell my english school "sorry guys, gotta run, peace out~" 4 months into the contract and start acquiring IT experience.
Malarazz
 
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