@NellyPB
Yes, and there is no error in your choice of spellings. I used defense in all caps to place emphasis that the expert(s) in question are not neutral or impartial experts, they are advocates for and part of the defense.
I have no such struggles with the meaning of prima facie.
Long Time International Teacher Faces Extradition for Alleged Abuse
Re: Long Time International Teacher Faces Extradition for Alleged Abuse
However, the DEFENCE and the CLAIMANT should both be heard by the court (and the media) until a judgement has been given.
Reply
@NellyPB
In direct reply:
1) Shock, Trauma, conducting their own inquiry, maybe it took time to sink in. It is not uncommon at all for victims to delay reporting their abuse.
2) Bruising can continue to develop over an extended period of time.
Bruising can be the result of a number of causes and can occur simultaneously from different sources. You can have bruises from abuse and bruises from other sources of injury at the same time.
3) Maybe, coordinated sexual assaults with multiple perpetrators isnt impossible. Memory isnt infallible, especially under the conditions of shock and trauma.
4) The entire tenet of trace transfer is that when two objects interact/come in contact with each other, an exchange of material occurs between them even if its at the molecular level. Whether its identifiable, observable, collectible and testable is another matter. Yes, transfer would occur between an organism (human fingers for example) touching cloth, the organism would transfer some quantity of its surface material to the cloth and the cloth would transfer some quantity of its fiber material to the organism. Whether the location of the transfer can be identified, the material collected, and then tested is a matter of forensics. This transfer can occur on many different materials at different levels of concentration. The reflex is to assume that in addition to oils and sweat on the fingers and on the clothing, that some amount of intact cellular material would transfer and would be suitable for PCR/DNA amplification and then gene/DNA typing. Thats not the only materials though. A shared infectious agent, toner ink, food remnants, cosmetics, health and beauty products, any number of materials and substances can establish contact and exchange between the victim and assailant.
No, we dont know that, all we know is what the DEFENSE expert REPORTED, there s nothing self authenticating about the DEFENSE experts report. Even if we accept it on face validity, there are still numerous rationals for why the victim did not cooperate with the DEFENSE expert, and failed to corroborate the mother's claim. This is a child who may very well trust their own mother more than some stranger who is by definition an adversary, they are the DEFENSES expert after all, and thats on top of the previously mentioned shock and trauma.
5) How is it fuzzy? I do not think it means what you think it means. Fuzzy generally indicates a degree of indistinction between the resolution of two states. You look at a tree but its shape seems indistinct around the edges of demarcation suggesting its location in space shifts between two locations, creating an aura of relative location, instead of being able to definitively define its location the observer is left with a relative range of location for the object; "being somewhere between there and there".
6) This could simply be the first time the abuser has been reported. There may well be additional victims from previous abuse that are unknown.
7) That was then and this is now, and shes been charged now. Türkiye issued a warrant and applied for extradition. What they didnt hold her when they had the chance so they cant pursue justice.
8) Her reason is whining. Its most certainly a sign of guilt.
Because when you hear hoof beats you look for horses not zebras. The salient point is "rare", it would absolutely be even more rare given the circumstances of this case. Either:
A) The IT did it.
B) The child made it up.
C) The parents are attempting to conceal their own abuse.
D) Both A and C.
E) Both B and C.
If its B, whats the motivation?
If its C why now, why this IT? Why bring up abuse at all rather than some other mechanism of injury? An abuse allegation puts everything under a microscope, if youre an abuser you dont want to be under a microscope for any reason, you want obscurity. So whats the incentive of the parents pushing for this allegation at this particular time, what do they have to gain, what are the circumstances that necessitate pointing the finger at this IT, at this point in time? There isnt any thats been reported.
If its A there are plenty of deviant motivations for misconduct.
I agree with your last post. The court is in Türkiye, have the defendant get on a plane and plead their defense.
You seem unable or unwilling to counter this issue. All the merits and deficiencies of the case and charge are the venue of the Turkish courts. Hiding from them in Britain is still hiding. You continually try to argue your way around some position that suggests remaining a fugitive is an acceptable outcome. Even if extradition is denied, it doesnt make the Turkish warrant go away, nor any continuing or subsequent red notice.
In direct reply:
1) Shock, Trauma, conducting their own inquiry, maybe it took time to sink in. It is not uncommon at all for victims to delay reporting their abuse.
2) Bruising can continue to develop over an extended period of time.
Bruising can be the result of a number of causes and can occur simultaneously from different sources. You can have bruises from abuse and bruises from other sources of injury at the same time.
3) Maybe, coordinated sexual assaults with multiple perpetrators isnt impossible. Memory isnt infallible, especially under the conditions of shock and trauma.
4) The entire tenet of trace transfer is that when two objects interact/come in contact with each other, an exchange of material occurs between them even if its at the molecular level. Whether its identifiable, observable, collectible and testable is another matter. Yes, transfer would occur between an organism (human fingers for example) touching cloth, the organism would transfer some quantity of its surface material to the cloth and the cloth would transfer some quantity of its fiber material to the organism. Whether the location of the transfer can be identified, the material collected, and then tested is a matter of forensics. This transfer can occur on many different materials at different levels of concentration. The reflex is to assume that in addition to oils and sweat on the fingers and on the clothing, that some amount of intact cellular material would transfer and would be suitable for PCR/DNA amplification and then gene/DNA typing. Thats not the only materials though. A shared infectious agent, toner ink, food remnants, cosmetics, health and beauty products, any number of materials and substances can establish contact and exchange between the victim and assailant.
No, we dont know that, all we know is what the DEFENSE expert REPORTED, there s nothing self authenticating about the DEFENSE experts report. Even if we accept it on face validity, there are still numerous rationals for why the victim did not cooperate with the DEFENSE expert, and failed to corroborate the mother's claim. This is a child who may very well trust their own mother more than some stranger who is by definition an adversary, they are the DEFENSES expert after all, and thats on top of the previously mentioned shock and trauma.
5) How is it fuzzy? I do not think it means what you think it means. Fuzzy generally indicates a degree of indistinction between the resolution of two states. You look at a tree but its shape seems indistinct around the edges of demarcation suggesting its location in space shifts between two locations, creating an aura of relative location, instead of being able to definitively define its location the observer is left with a relative range of location for the object; "being somewhere between there and there".
6) This could simply be the first time the abuser has been reported. There may well be additional victims from previous abuse that are unknown.
7) That was then and this is now, and shes been charged now. Türkiye issued a warrant and applied for extradition. What they didnt hold her when they had the chance so they cant pursue justice.
8) Her reason is whining. Its most certainly a sign of guilt.
Because when you hear hoof beats you look for horses not zebras. The salient point is "rare", it would absolutely be even more rare given the circumstances of this case. Either:
A) The IT did it.
B) The child made it up.
C) The parents are attempting to conceal their own abuse.
D) Both A and C.
E) Both B and C.
If its B, whats the motivation?
If its C why now, why this IT? Why bring up abuse at all rather than some other mechanism of injury? An abuse allegation puts everything under a microscope, if youre an abuser you dont want to be under a microscope for any reason, you want obscurity. So whats the incentive of the parents pushing for this allegation at this particular time, what do they have to gain, what are the circumstances that necessitate pointing the finger at this IT, at this point in time? There isnt any thats been reported.
If its A there are plenty of deviant motivations for misconduct.
I agree with your last post. The court is in Türkiye, have the defendant get on a plane and plead their defense.
You seem unable or unwilling to counter this issue. All the merits and deficiencies of the case and charge are the venue of the Turkish courts. Hiding from them in Britain is still hiding. You continually try to argue your way around some position that suggests remaining a fugitive is an acceptable outcome. Even if extradition is denied, it doesnt make the Turkish warrant go away, nor any continuing or subsequent red notice.
Re: Long Time International Teacher Faces Extradition for Alleged Abuse
Just to correct you on a couple of points @PsyGuy
The child was not interviewed by the defence, but by law enforcement. It was recorded.
The defence forensic expert report has never been heard in the Turkish court. The claimant parents made a criminal complaint against the defence lawyers and the three forensic experts who had written the report. No action was taken after an investigation so they again complained about the lack of inaction. Again it was found that the experts acted within the agreements of the court.
I think 6 and a half years later or 20 plus years more of teaching, other victims would have come forward. For now, this is NO serial abuser.
Richardson left legally due to lack of concrete evidence. She had not been asked for DNA samples due to the child’s interview and the type of assault she alleged she experienced.
Richardson, like many of us in IT was an early years teacher. Normal, respectful, high quality care in EY would mean teachers support children and would handle clothing, hold hands, occasionally need to support children by picking them up etc. children would be toilet trained but accidents happen. Touch DNA would almost be a certainty from the alleged crime scene. From an incident at home 3 days later? Not so sure. It is ‘fuzzy’ because it is not clear who has been eliminated by testing. In the latest court records it appears it is the claimant child and a profile that is similar? This has not always been clear.
The news says Richardson will not be extradited. There is no info about the actual judgement. Despite this, her team have attempted many times for her to be heard and she still has a right to a fair trial.
The UK currently has an agreement with Türkiye that all RPs must serve their sentence Yalvac prison.
I admire your dedication and support to survivors, but this is a forum for ITs and you yourself know that accusations happen to us all. People are innocent until proven guilty. I don’t believe for one second that Richardson is engaging in DARVO principles.
The child was not interviewed by the defence, but by law enforcement. It was recorded.
The defence forensic expert report has never been heard in the Turkish court. The claimant parents made a criminal complaint against the defence lawyers and the three forensic experts who had written the report. No action was taken after an investigation so they again complained about the lack of inaction. Again it was found that the experts acted within the agreements of the court.
I think 6 and a half years later or 20 plus years more of teaching, other victims would have come forward. For now, this is NO serial abuser.
Richardson left legally due to lack of concrete evidence. She had not been asked for DNA samples due to the child’s interview and the type of assault she alleged she experienced.
Richardson, like many of us in IT was an early years teacher. Normal, respectful, high quality care in EY would mean teachers support children and would handle clothing, hold hands, occasionally need to support children by picking them up etc. children would be toilet trained but accidents happen. Touch DNA would almost be a certainty from the alleged crime scene. From an incident at home 3 days later? Not so sure. It is ‘fuzzy’ because it is not clear who has been eliminated by testing. In the latest court records it appears it is the claimant child and a profile that is similar? This has not always been clear.
The news says Richardson will not be extradited. There is no info about the actual judgement. Despite this, her team have attempted many times for her to be heard and she still has a right to a fair trial.
The UK currently has an agreement with Türkiye that all RPs must serve their sentence Yalvac prison.
I admire your dedication and support to survivors, but this is a forum for ITs and you yourself know that accusations happen to us all. People are innocent until proven guilty. I don’t believe for one second that Richardson is engaging in DARVO principles.
Reply
@NellyPB
1) Law enforcement is even scarier to a young child.
2) It seems rather unbelievable that the Court knows nothing about the report despite an investigation of the defense advocates and the experts. Maybe the report was never formally admitted before the court but even if the investigation was conducted outside the office of the Court, they know about it.
3) Thats just something you think. Victims can and have come forward to report abuse many, many years later.
4) She hasnt returned as legally required by the Turkish warrant. You do understand that she is a wanted fugitive by a European country?
5) The forensics needs to be cleared up. Thats not the equivalent of exoneration. Its something to be addressed by the Court, the defense and prosecution. A trial is one such avenue of addressing that concern.
6) Again, all the merits and deficiencies of the case and charge are the venue of the Turkish courts. Hiding from them in Britain is still hiding. You continually try to argue your way around some position that suggests remaining a fugitive is an acceptable outcome. Despite extradition being denied, it doesnt make the Turkish warrant go away, nor any continuing or subsequent red notice. Theyre still a wanted fugitive. They cant leave Britain for another jurisdiction without risking arrest and extradition. How would they conceivably practice as a DT or IT? Until being exonerated their career is over.
Again, I agree with your last post. The court is in Türkiye, have the defendant get on a plane and exercise their right to trial.
1) Law enforcement is even scarier to a young child.
2) It seems rather unbelievable that the Court knows nothing about the report despite an investigation of the defense advocates and the experts. Maybe the report was never formally admitted before the court but even if the investigation was conducted outside the office of the Court, they know about it.
3) Thats just something you think. Victims can and have come forward to report abuse many, many years later.
4) She hasnt returned as legally required by the Turkish warrant. You do understand that she is a wanted fugitive by a European country?
5) The forensics needs to be cleared up. Thats not the equivalent of exoneration. Its something to be addressed by the Court, the defense and prosecution. A trial is one such avenue of addressing that concern.
6) Again, all the merits and deficiencies of the case and charge are the venue of the Turkish courts. Hiding from them in Britain is still hiding. You continually try to argue your way around some position that suggests remaining a fugitive is an acceptable outcome. Despite extradition being denied, it doesnt make the Turkish warrant go away, nor any continuing or subsequent red notice. Theyre still a wanted fugitive. They cant leave Britain for another jurisdiction without risking arrest and extradition. How would they conceivably practice as a DT or IT? Until being exonerated their career is over.
Again, I agree with your last post. The court is in Türkiye, have the defendant get on a plane and exercise their right to trial.
Re: Long Time International Teacher Faces Extradition for Alleged Abuse
@PsyGuy
1) it was carried out by a trained psychologist for law enforcement. It is being treated as concrete evidence although her questioning was led and tagged.
2) of course they know about the report! Why do you think the parents sued the lawyer and experts! Maybe the judge just doesn’t want open the can of worms it contains?
3) Yeap. But it is YEARS later and she is middle aged and been in the media?
4) The question you need to ask is why wouldn’t she return? It is part of the ECHR so she can take it to Strasbourg. Read the original article again. You do know something of Türkiye, surely? Do you know about the complaint procedure that was set up by AKP and what the motivation might be? Do you think she felt supported? Do you think she was actually well enough to face a lengthy trial procedure? Or are you one of the anti woke brigade that thinks moderate to severe depression is just being a bit sad. Take a look at the implications of false allegations on your profession, PsyGuy? If we don’t want to pathologise the teacher, 6 years is a long time to be called ‘Miss Pedo’…
5) UK and Türkiye can obtain evidence through Mutual Legal Assistance. This can be DNA and interviews etc. Look it up.
6) AGAIN, why didn’t she want to return? Did she feel unsafe? Was she too ill? Did she know the trial would last a few years (things take a long time over there, there was zero chance of teaching again) and she would not have medical care, a job or be around her elderly parents? Would the school still give her support? No union and no pay and no free legal representation. AGAIN, Turkey is In Europe and ECHR, but should it be? For some (probably not) inexplicable reason she felt she couldn’t return.
OR stay put in your ‘relatively’ safe European home and take the case to Strasbourg where being an independent foreign white single woman won’t be held against you.
And do you really stupidly think if she had stayed it all would have disappeared in five minutes??? The whole ordeal is ridiculous and unfounded.
The end!
1) it was carried out by a trained psychologist for law enforcement. It is being treated as concrete evidence although her questioning was led and tagged.
2) of course they know about the report! Why do you think the parents sued the lawyer and experts! Maybe the judge just doesn’t want open the can of worms it contains?
3) Yeap. But it is YEARS later and she is middle aged and been in the media?
4) The question you need to ask is why wouldn’t she return? It is part of the ECHR so she can take it to Strasbourg. Read the original article again. You do know something of Türkiye, surely? Do you know about the complaint procedure that was set up by AKP and what the motivation might be? Do you think she felt supported? Do you think she was actually well enough to face a lengthy trial procedure? Or are you one of the anti woke brigade that thinks moderate to severe depression is just being a bit sad. Take a look at the implications of false allegations on your profession, PsyGuy? If we don’t want to pathologise the teacher, 6 years is a long time to be called ‘Miss Pedo’…
5) UK and Türkiye can obtain evidence through Mutual Legal Assistance. This can be DNA and interviews etc. Look it up.
6) AGAIN, why didn’t she want to return? Did she feel unsafe? Was she too ill? Did she know the trial would last a few years (things take a long time over there, there was zero chance of teaching again) and she would not have medical care, a job or be around her elderly parents? Would the school still give her support? No union and no pay and no free legal representation. AGAIN, Turkey is In Europe and ECHR, but should it be? For some (probably not) inexplicable reason she felt she couldn’t return.
OR stay put in your ‘relatively’ safe European home and take the case to Strasbourg where being an independent foreign white single woman won’t be held against you.
And do you really stupidly think if she had stayed it all would have disappeared in five minutes??? The whole ordeal is ridiculous and unfounded.
The end!
Reply
@NellyPB
1) A trained psychologist AND law enforcement, thats double scary to a young child. Youre not making your case better for why the child may not be comfortable cooperating which isnt a sign of innocence when that child is the victim.
2) If that was true why issue the warrant and why pursue the case over dismissal. There are enough someones here who believe their case strong enough to merit trial.
3) So was Jeffrey Epstein, whats your point? Victims appear years, even decades later despite age of the assailant and their appearance in the media.
4) Ive already answered that question, shes guilty and doesnt want to go to a Turkish prison.
Its not just having access to the ECHR, their model of jurisprudence most ascribe to certain western values of justice. This case wouldnt be progressing any differently if it were Germany, France, or Italy, etc..
Why would anyone support a child pedo abuser?
As if somehow depression means the law doesnt apply?
Im one of those realists who believe a lengthy prison sentence for abusing a child would be depressing to most anyone.
Six years, you mean eternally. Shes a wanted fugitive, the moniker isnt going to go away.
5) Türkiye can collect the evidence personally when Miss Pedo is in custody.
6) AGAIN, shes guilty. Innocent people dont run and hide.
Shes a pedo child abuser, why should she feel safe?
Sick with guilt maybe.
At LEAST a few years. Lesson, dont go teach in Türkiye.
She would get medical care while in custody.
Yes, those are consequences of being a pedo child abuser.
Why would the IS continue to support a pedo child abuser? Any smart IS would wash their hands of the matter as quickly as possible.
Why shouldnt it be in Europe?
ts not inexplicable. Shes guilty and doesnt want to go to prison for a long time. That was pretty easy to explain.
7) How would "being an independent foreign white single woman" be held against anyone, youre starting to sound like a conspiracy theorist.
8) No, I think it would have been a severely depressing, and very uncomfortable multi year process that would not be over in 5 minutes. Its Europe nothing is over in 5 minutes. Thats something that most guilty perpetrators say, Trump says it all the time.
What about the victim, how do they get justice, or is justice for the victim also ridiculous and unfounded?
la fin
1) A trained psychologist AND law enforcement, thats double scary to a young child. Youre not making your case better for why the child may not be comfortable cooperating which isnt a sign of innocence when that child is the victim.
2) If that was true why issue the warrant and why pursue the case over dismissal. There are enough someones here who believe their case strong enough to merit trial.
3) So was Jeffrey Epstein, whats your point? Victims appear years, even decades later despite age of the assailant and their appearance in the media.
4) Ive already answered that question, shes guilty and doesnt want to go to a Turkish prison.
Its not just having access to the ECHR, their model of jurisprudence most ascribe to certain western values of justice. This case wouldnt be progressing any differently if it were Germany, France, or Italy, etc..
Why would anyone support a child pedo abuser?
As if somehow depression means the law doesnt apply?
Im one of those realists who believe a lengthy prison sentence for abusing a child would be depressing to most anyone.
Six years, you mean eternally. Shes a wanted fugitive, the moniker isnt going to go away.
5) Türkiye can collect the evidence personally when Miss Pedo is in custody.
6) AGAIN, shes guilty. Innocent people dont run and hide.
Shes a pedo child abuser, why should she feel safe?
Sick with guilt maybe.
At LEAST a few years. Lesson, dont go teach in Türkiye.
She would get medical care while in custody.
Yes, those are consequences of being a pedo child abuser.
Why would the IS continue to support a pedo child abuser? Any smart IS would wash their hands of the matter as quickly as possible.
Why shouldnt it be in Europe?
ts not inexplicable. Shes guilty and doesnt want to go to prison for a long time. That was pretty easy to explain.
7) How would "being an independent foreign white single woman" be held against anyone, youre starting to sound like a conspiracy theorist.
8) No, I think it would have been a severely depressing, and very uncomfortable multi year process that would not be over in 5 minutes. Its Europe nothing is over in 5 minutes. Thats something that most guilty perpetrators say, Trump says it all the time.
What about the victim, how do they get justice, or is justice for the victim also ridiculous and unfounded?
la fin
Re: Long Time International Teacher Faces Extradition for Alleged Abuse
@PsyGuy
Oh give it up.
You know zero about Turkish law. The case cannot collapse or be dismissed once in court. There is just no mechanism for it to happen. If the parent claimants dropped the case and it went into settlement, maybe? The judiciary have to continue with due process.
You have not read the defence for the extradition case.
You do not know the judgement from the extradition case you are just guessing. There was no appeal from the CPS?
You do not know the contents of the medical report.
Comparing this poor woman to Epstein? Time to retire from teaching and this forum. What a vile troll you’ve become. Go work on some sleazy media outlet where you can band around the hideous ‘miss pedo’ tag like The Sun newspaper in the UK.
It would have been over in weeks or days in most other jurisdictions that are independent and not so politically motivated.
I wouldn’t wish false allegations on any teacher, but I could be changing my mind?
Thank Christ for ECHR.
Oh give it up.
You know zero about Turkish law. The case cannot collapse or be dismissed once in court. There is just no mechanism for it to happen. If the parent claimants dropped the case and it went into settlement, maybe? The judiciary have to continue with due process.
You have not read the defence for the extradition case.
You do not know the judgement from the extradition case you are just guessing. There was no appeal from the CPS?
You do not know the contents of the medical report.
Comparing this poor woman to Epstein? Time to retire from teaching and this forum. What a vile troll you’ve become. Go work on some sleazy media outlet where you can band around the hideous ‘miss pedo’ tag like The Sun newspaper in the UK.
It would have been over in weeks or days in most other jurisdictions that are independent and not so politically motivated.
I wouldn’t wish false allegations on any teacher, but I could be changing my mind?
Thank Christ for ECHR.
PsyGuy
@NellyPB
Not likely.
I know more than you it seems. There are a number of ways for the case to be dismissed, but as you identified the claimants can do so as but one reason.
Let me summarize the defense case. "I didnt do it".
The CPS did their job, they prosecuted the extradition, now they are moving on. Youre confusing extradition with exoneration, denying extradition is not exoneration on the merits of facts. Miss Pedo is still a wanted fugitive.
You dont know the content of the medical report. Its basically inconclusive.
Epstein is a pedo child abuser and Miss Pedo is a wanted child abuser, that seems comparable.
Sticks and Stones. Only data matters. Miss Pedo is a wanted fugitive for abusing a child in a European country. Which is not something you can refute.
The only way it would have been over in another European jurisdiction is if Miss Pedo took a guilty plea. Otherwise no, she wouldnt even have had her trial set within a few weeks.
More conspiracy ranting. Miss Pedo is a former IT shes not important enough to rise to the level of having political adversaries.
Wish all you want.
The ECHR isnt the salvation youre elevating it to. Miss Pedo may very well have whatever findings and judgment against her affirmed. Youre just guessing that they would give her an acquittal.
Not likely.
I know more than you it seems. There are a number of ways for the case to be dismissed, but as you identified the claimants can do so as but one reason.
Let me summarize the defense case. "I didnt do it".
The CPS did their job, they prosecuted the extradition, now they are moving on. Youre confusing extradition with exoneration, denying extradition is not exoneration on the merits of facts. Miss Pedo is still a wanted fugitive.
You dont know the content of the medical report. Its basically inconclusive.
Epstein is a pedo child abuser and Miss Pedo is a wanted child abuser, that seems comparable.
Sticks and Stones. Only data matters. Miss Pedo is a wanted fugitive for abusing a child in a European country. Which is not something you can refute.
The only way it would have been over in another European jurisdiction is if Miss Pedo took a guilty plea. Otherwise no, she wouldnt even have had her trial set within a few weeks.
More conspiracy ranting. Miss Pedo is a former IT shes not important enough to rise to the level of having political adversaries.
Wish all you want.
The ECHR isnt the salvation youre elevating it to. Miss Pedo may very well have whatever findings and judgment against her affirmed. Youre just guessing that they would give her an acquittal.
Re: Long Time International Teacher Faces Extradition for Alleged Abuse
Yawn
@PsyGuy
Reverse to February 2019. Richardson was released from all court restrictions due to there being no concrete evidence. Meaning the case was investigated thoroughly and at an end (and elsewhere that would be that).
However, after the attempted coup in 2016 the AKP set up a complaints process for citizens to complain about figures in public office. Its aim was less than transparent. After the claimant family started a formal procedure of complaint about the school and the prosecutor, Richardson was charged. I’d be scared at this point.
Move on to 2023. No new evidence has been submitted by the alleged claimants, yet in stark contrast to a few years ago, suspicion of a crime when charged has now moved to there being concrete evidence? I’d be petrified.
I am not confusing exoneration with extradition. I do however think if the UK were truly concerned Richardson had offended, a red notice would have been immediate and the UK would not have discharged her. Türkiye can also put pressure on the CPS to appeal a discharge. They did not. Odd?
The child’s medical reports show redness in the first report. The second report shows, fissures, scratches and bruises. The photograph timestamps back this timeline. The claimants also speak of an incident outdoors that cctv clearly shows was a fabrication.It maybe inconclusive, but it is also unfounded. Possibly a hysterical parent blaming everything upon a teacher rather than taking responsibility for it herself, methinks.
I was also referring to Richardson’s evidence, medical, Human rights and prison report which has not been touched upon in the press and is unknown in the mainstay. Also although an extradition judge cannot base his case on evidence he would be able to comment on issues he had observed. Without reading the judgement you cannot know his feelings around the quality of the evidence in the case.
Geographically, Türkiye is in Europe. It is a wonderful place to visit and for most ex pats, to live in. Check where it ranks in the World Justice project index (117). Take a look at some prison and torture reports... Find out about the Yalvac assurance… Look up what happened to BBCs Mark Lowen. See how much of their press is state owned? European, my backside.
Also as a side note. Take a scroll through some reviews from 2019 on this very site. The parents may have had a motivation behind THIS allegation. It’s only an opinion but it sets a scene.
Oh yes, we are all innocent until proven guilty. Let’s please start using ‘alleged’ whilst there is a trial ongoing. Ummm, it is child abuser. Survivors and rights groups look down on the use of ‘pedo’. You are supposed to be a teacher and all.
@PsyGuy
Reverse to February 2019. Richardson was released from all court restrictions due to there being no concrete evidence. Meaning the case was investigated thoroughly and at an end (and elsewhere that would be that).
However, after the attempted coup in 2016 the AKP set up a complaints process for citizens to complain about figures in public office. Its aim was less than transparent. After the claimant family started a formal procedure of complaint about the school and the prosecutor, Richardson was charged. I’d be scared at this point.
Move on to 2023. No new evidence has been submitted by the alleged claimants, yet in stark contrast to a few years ago, suspicion of a crime when charged has now moved to there being concrete evidence? I’d be petrified.
I am not confusing exoneration with extradition. I do however think if the UK were truly concerned Richardson had offended, a red notice would have been immediate and the UK would not have discharged her. Türkiye can also put pressure on the CPS to appeal a discharge. They did not. Odd?
The child’s medical reports show redness in the first report. The second report shows, fissures, scratches and bruises. The photograph timestamps back this timeline. The claimants also speak of an incident outdoors that cctv clearly shows was a fabrication.It maybe inconclusive, but it is also unfounded. Possibly a hysterical parent blaming everything upon a teacher rather than taking responsibility for it herself, methinks.
I was also referring to Richardson’s evidence, medical, Human rights and prison report which has not been touched upon in the press and is unknown in the mainstay. Also although an extradition judge cannot base his case on evidence he would be able to comment on issues he had observed. Without reading the judgement you cannot know his feelings around the quality of the evidence in the case.
Geographically, Türkiye is in Europe. It is a wonderful place to visit and for most ex pats, to live in. Check where it ranks in the World Justice project index (117). Take a look at some prison and torture reports... Find out about the Yalvac assurance… Look up what happened to BBCs Mark Lowen. See how much of their press is state owned? European, my backside.
Also as a side note. Take a scroll through some reviews from 2019 on this very site. The parents may have had a motivation behind THIS allegation. It’s only an opinion but it sets a scene.
Oh yes, we are all innocent until proven guilty. Let’s please start using ‘alleged’ whilst there is a trial ongoing. Ummm, it is child abuser. Survivors and rights groups look down on the use of ‘pedo’. You are supposed to be a teacher and all.
Reply
@NellyPB
::sigh::
So in 2016 the AKP set up a complaints process,thats a very European thing to do.
Miss Pedo was charged because the case was sufficiently strong to bring to trial. Miss Pedo was than released. Later charges were refilled (charges can be refilled), a warrant and red notice were issued. Miss Pedo than faced extradition in the UK, and it was denied. The CPS did not appeal. Nothing about any of your arguments, or claims makes Miss Pedo less of a fugitive, theres an active warrant for her arrest in a European country for serious misconduct.
Just because new evidence hasnt been introduced, doesnt mean it doesnt exist. Nor is a court required to defer to any earlier decision on the merits of the evidence that is available. Miss Pedo hasnt been exonerated, and she isnt being charged post any exoneration. Cases develop over time, what was weak one day, may be seen in another light or another set of eyes as being strong.
Thats just something you think.
Why would the UK Court have to issue a red notice for the defendant who is in their jurisdiction, they would just arrest Miss Pedo.
Türkiye did put pressure on the UK, they filed for her extradition.
The CPS has better things to do, and other cases to move on to. This is one stone on a mountain. It is not some prosecutors crusade.
Again, as above, injuries (such as bruising) can develop over time.
Maybe the victims have the playground location wrong, victims being victims memory under stress and trauma isnt unusual.
Its not unfounded, this case is not a house of cards centered around one instance of CCTV video footage.
Hysterical parents, thats just something you think. You dont know what the judges feelings are either.
Yes, Türkiye is in Europe.
117 out of 142, torture, harsh prison conditions; maybe dont commit crimes there. Again, dont go to Türkiye. No one made Miss Pedo go to Türkiye did they, Miss Pedo wasnt a citizen compelled or forced to either travel there or remain there. She voluntarily entered Türkiye, and voluntarily subjected herself to its laws and its judicial system. All things Miss Pedo should have considered before traveling there.
Again, still in Europe, but as you point out its a rather wonderful place despite its WJP ranking. How can it both be wonderful and a poo hole; because there are two different comparisons based on two different classes of individuals, law abiding individuals and criminals. Miss Pedo is a member of one class and all those who think its wonderful members of the other class.
Yes, the parents may have ulterior motives, but thats again, just something you think. Your entire groundwork for your conclusions are rooted in conjecture and speculation.
There isnt an ongoing trial, theres a judicial procedure. The defendant is a fugitive of justice.
As an edu, Im not beholden to the positions of survivors and rights groups. My own counsel will I keep on what vocabulary I use, since Im responsible for my word choice and not survivors or rights groups.
::sigh::
So in 2016 the AKP set up a complaints process,thats a very European thing to do.
Miss Pedo was charged because the case was sufficiently strong to bring to trial. Miss Pedo was than released. Later charges were refilled (charges can be refilled), a warrant and red notice were issued. Miss Pedo than faced extradition in the UK, and it was denied. The CPS did not appeal. Nothing about any of your arguments, or claims makes Miss Pedo less of a fugitive, theres an active warrant for her arrest in a European country for serious misconduct.
Just because new evidence hasnt been introduced, doesnt mean it doesnt exist. Nor is a court required to defer to any earlier decision on the merits of the evidence that is available. Miss Pedo hasnt been exonerated, and she isnt being charged post any exoneration. Cases develop over time, what was weak one day, may be seen in another light or another set of eyes as being strong.
Thats just something you think.
Why would the UK Court have to issue a red notice for the defendant who is in their jurisdiction, they would just arrest Miss Pedo.
Türkiye did put pressure on the UK, they filed for her extradition.
The CPS has better things to do, and other cases to move on to. This is one stone on a mountain. It is not some prosecutors crusade.
Again, as above, injuries (such as bruising) can develop over time.
Maybe the victims have the playground location wrong, victims being victims memory under stress and trauma isnt unusual.
Its not unfounded, this case is not a house of cards centered around one instance of CCTV video footage.
Hysterical parents, thats just something you think. You dont know what the judges feelings are either.
Yes, Türkiye is in Europe.
117 out of 142, torture, harsh prison conditions; maybe dont commit crimes there. Again, dont go to Türkiye. No one made Miss Pedo go to Türkiye did they, Miss Pedo wasnt a citizen compelled or forced to either travel there or remain there. She voluntarily entered Türkiye, and voluntarily subjected herself to its laws and its judicial system. All things Miss Pedo should have considered before traveling there.
Again, still in Europe, but as you point out its a rather wonderful place despite its WJP ranking. How can it both be wonderful and a poo hole; because there are two different comparisons based on two different classes of individuals, law abiding individuals and criminals. Miss Pedo is a member of one class and all those who think its wonderful members of the other class.
Yes, the parents may have ulterior motives, but thats again, just something you think. Your entire groundwork for your conclusions are rooted in conjecture and speculation.
There isnt an ongoing trial, theres a judicial procedure. The defendant is a fugitive of justice.
As an edu, Im not beholden to the positions of survivors and rights groups. My own counsel will I keep on what vocabulary I use, since Im responsible for my word choice and not survivors or rights groups.
Re: Long Time International Teacher Faces Extradition for Alleged Abuse
@PsyGuy
Nope, it was not a strong case to bring to trial. In fact I’ve heard many legal experts say how weak it is.
They ARE unfounded claims. They have not been examined over time, quite the opposite. They are still weak and insufficient.
The motivation behind CIMER set up by the AKP was perhaps set up to sack/witch hunt/purge Gulenists? It could be classed as very uneuropean?
The cctv entered to court was apparently extensive. The complaint made was on a specific day and logged. All children were playing in an area covered by cctv. It sounded like a child responding to a parents excessive questioning and made something up.
I’m for justice. Justice for all and nobody is getting it here. In my very humble opinion this case and trial in Türkiye is being influenced by the parents and scant regard is being paid to the actual child claimant and a defendant battling to save their reputation and liberty. It is a ridiculous charade.
Again, once a case has been pushed into a higher court in Türkiye it cannot be dismissed. I believe there was pressure to charge Richardson. This case should not have got this far. Extradition is the procedure necessary for it to come to a conclusion. I think if the teacher turned up they would quite literally be pooping themselves at court.
Places can have a rich culture at the beginning of a tenure with a continuing slide into autocracy and a diminishing rule of law by the end of it.
I don’t believe the UK or Türkiye have any interest in harbouring child abusers and they would have packed her off to the ‘Bul years ago if they thought she’d done it.
Fugitive or not. Fair trials have to exist.
And just as you have zero idea about whether the alleged (unfounded) events or true or not, I can make a stab that there could be some monetary motivation from the claimant parents or some sort of instability in their parenting.
Nope, it was not a strong case to bring to trial. In fact I’ve heard many legal experts say how weak it is.
They ARE unfounded claims. They have not been examined over time, quite the opposite. They are still weak and insufficient.
The motivation behind CIMER set up by the AKP was perhaps set up to sack/witch hunt/purge Gulenists? It could be classed as very uneuropean?
The cctv entered to court was apparently extensive. The complaint made was on a specific day and logged. All children were playing in an area covered by cctv. It sounded like a child responding to a parents excessive questioning and made something up.
I’m for justice. Justice for all and nobody is getting it here. In my very humble opinion this case and trial in Türkiye is being influenced by the parents and scant regard is being paid to the actual child claimant and a defendant battling to save their reputation and liberty. It is a ridiculous charade.
Again, once a case has been pushed into a higher court in Türkiye it cannot be dismissed. I believe there was pressure to charge Richardson. This case should not have got this far. Extradition is the procedure necessary for it to come to a conclusion. I think if the teacher turned up they would quite literally be pooping themselves at court.
Places can have a rich culture at the beginning of a tenure with a continuing slide into autocracy and a diminishing rule of law by the end of it.
I don’t believe the UK or Türkiye have any interest in harbouring child abusers and they would have packed her off to the ‘Bul years ago if they thought she’d done it.
Fugitive or not. Fair trials have to exist.
And just as you have zero idea about whether the alleged (unfounded) events or true or not, I can make a stab that there could be some monetary motivation from the claimant parents or some sort of instability in their parenting.
Reply
@NellyPB
Yes it is strong considering enough someones in the Turkish judiciary thinks its strong and sufficient enough to prosecute and issue a warrant. As opposed to the whining of a wanted fugitive.
They are well founded. Theres a victim, theres injury, evidence of booth. Enough convincing evidence to go to trial.
Perhaps, but perhaps it was set up as another layer of protection to address concerns and complaints of those who are victimized, which is very European. You dont know, youre just speculating and making conjectures.
Maybe the victim got the day wrong, maybe they got the location run, stress and trauma from victimization will do that.
I agree!!! Have the defendant return to Türkiye defend themselves against their accuser and let the scale of justice weigh and measure the merits and facts of the case. If convicted the victim gets justice AND if the defendant is exonerated they get justice. As opposed to remaining in hiding as a wanted fugitive.
Again, thats just your opinion, humble or not.
Yes it can be dismissed.
This case would have gotten just as far in any other European jurisdiction (Germany, Italy, France, etc.).
Thats just something you believe, which is on the same level as something you think. Which in addition to being speculation and conjecture is as AGAIN, rising to the level of a conspiracist.
Great, have Miss Pedo return to Türkiye, and question the child on the witness stand. Then the victim gets listened to and Miss Pedo gets to face her accuser.
Smells like more conspiracism.
Again, yes it can be dismissed.
Of course there was pressure to charge Miss Pedo, thats how charges work. You receive a complaint, you have a victim, you collect evidence and statements and then the perpetrator is charged. Its literally how the system works.
No, again your confusing extradition with exoneration. Denying the request for extradition does not make the warrant or the case go away. Miss Pedo is a fugitive of justice. She can return voluntarily, she does not have to be extradited.
Thats something you just think. If their case was so absurd and so weak, then why hide in the UK, just return be exonerated and Miss Pedo can return to her life.
Thats certainly a possibility but the only offer youve made of that being true in this case is speculation, conjecture, and conspiracy theories. Its all claims that are not self authenticating and nothing more than your thoughts, feelings, and beliefs assembled into opinions.
Türkiye doesnt, they are actively pursuing Miss Pedo as a fugitive and want to return her to the jurisdiction of the crime to face justice, which may fall on her side, but hiding out in the UK a wanted fugitive does not bode well for Miss Pedos innocence.
Trial in absentia is a possibility. Türkiye tried in absentia a case against Saudi nationals who coincidentally were also not extradited.
Could be extraterrestrial aliens or a secret demonic cult for all your stabbing (guessing) is worth.
Yes it is strong considering enough someones in the Turkish judiciary thinks its strong and sufficient enough to prosecute and issue a warrant. As opposed to the whining of a wanted fugitive.
They are well founded. Theres a victim, theres injury, evidence of booth. Enough convincing evidence to go to trial.
Perhaps, but perhaps it was set up as another layer of protection to address concerns and complaints of those who are victimized, which is very European. You dont know, youre just speculating and making conjectures.
Maybe the victim got the day wrong, maybe they got the location run, stress and trauma from victimization will do that.
I agree!!! Have the defendant return to Türkiye defend themselves against their accuser and let the scale of justice weigh and measure the merits and facts of the case. If convicted the victim gets justice AND if the defendant is exonerated they get justice. As opposed to remaining in hiding as a wanted fugitive.
Again, thats just your opinion, humble or not.
Yes it can be dismissed.
This case would have gotten just as far in any other European jurisdiction (Germany, Italy, France, etc.).
Thats just something you believe, which is on the same level as something you think. Which in addition to being speculation and conjecture is as AGAIN, rising to the level of a conspiracist.
Great, have Miss Pedo return to Türkiye, and question the child on the witness stand. Then the victim gets listened to and Miss Pedo gets to face her accuser.
Smells like more conspiracism.
Again, yes it can be dismissed.
Of course there was pressure to charge Miss Pedo, thats how charges work. You receive a complaint, you have a victim, you collect evidence and statements and then the perpetrator is charged. Its literally how the system works.
No, again your confusing extradition with exoneration. Denying the request for extradition does not make the warrant or the case go away. Miss Pedo is a fugitive of justice. She can return voluntarily, she does not have to be extradited.
Thats something you just think. If their case was so absurd and so weak, then why hide in the UK, just return be exonerated and Miss Pedo can return to her life.
Thats certainly a possibility but the only offer youve made of that being true in this case is speculation, conjecture, and conspiracy theories. Its all claims that are not self authenticating and nothing more than your thoughts, feelings, and beliefs assembled into opinions.
Türkiye doesnt, they are actively pursuing Miss Pedo as a fugitive and want to return her to the jurisdiction of the crime to face justice, which may fall on her side, but hiding out in the UK a wanted fugitive does not bode well for Miss Pedos innocence.
Trial in absentia is a possibility. Türkiye tried in absentia a case against Saudi nationals who coincidentally were also not extradited.
Could be extraterrestrial aliens or a secret demonic cult for all your stabbing (guessing) is worth.
Re: Long Time International Teacher Faces Extradition for Alleged Abuse
@PsyGuy
No to absolutely all of your pathetic points. No date mix ups, unsatisfactory evidence all round. The police were even said to comment on the fact that there was no case.
The Turkish purge is conjecture. So so funny! All those journalists, lawyers and other professionals all locked away is just all made up.
Nope it would have been dropped or collapsed in all other countries with a strong rule of law and a strong child service procedure. Not nonsense, pure fact.
Please tell me where in Turkish law a case can be dropped sub juddice?
I agree, fleeing looks bad. But, being released from an investigation and returning home, does not. MLA exists. Severe mental health issues do. Also, I am not repeating myself again about the hundreds of issues facing the RP.
No to absolutely all of your pathetic points. No date mix ups, unsatisfactory evidence all round. The police were even said to comment on the fact that there was no case.
The Turkish purge is conjecture. So so funny! All those journalists, lawyers and other professionals all locked away is just all made up.
Nope it would have been dropped or collapsed in all other countries with a strong rule of law and a strong child service procedure. Not nonsense, pure fact.
Please tell me where in Turkish law a case can be dropped sub juddice?
I agree, fleeing looks bad. But, being released from an investigation and returning home, does not. MLA exists. Severe mental health issues do. Also, I am not repeating myself again about the hundreds of issues facing the RP.
Reply
@NellyPB
No, to all of your rebuttal conjurations.
Great call the law enforcement officer who made such comment and have them testify at trial. Police dont try cases though, prosecutors do, and AGAIN, there are enough someones who feel the case sufficiently strong to reach conviction at trial. The case is not some house of cards contingent on the comment of the police or CCTV video.
They are incarcerated for committing crimes. This is Europe after all if these " journalists, lawyers and other professionals" people were denied "human rights" then surely the ECHR would have ordered their release.
You dont know what facts are. Again, thats conjecture and speculation youve fashioned into an opinion. This case would have proceeded the same in any other European jurisdiction (France, Germany, Italy, Etc.), which isnt a fact because @NellyPB says so.
Do your own research, but you can start with the CMK and the TCK.
Now theres a red notice and a warrant issued by Türkiye, Miss Pedo is a fugitive, thats a fact. She is for now able to hide in the UK, but again, denying extradition doesnt make the warrant go away.
Im sure Miss Pedo is experiencing mental health issues regarding her looming incarceration in Türkiye, and that makes her depressed. Im also sure there are many child abusers incarcerated who are also sad and/or depressed about their predicament. Dont do crimes.
If Miss. Pedos case was so strong and the governments case so weak that the Court would poo its pants than Miss Pedo should avail herself of the opportunity to do that and secure their exoneration.
No, to all of your rebuttal conjurations.
Great call the law enforcement officer who made such comment and have them testify at trial. Police dont try cases though, prosecutors do, and AGAIN, there are enough someones who feel the case sufficiently strong to reach conviction at trial. The case is not some house of cards contingent on the comment of the police or CCTV video.
They are incarcerated for committing crimes. This is Europe after all if these " journalists, lawyers and other professionals" people were denied "human rights" then surely the ECHR would have ordered their release.
You dont know what facts are. Again, thats conjecture and speculation youve fashioned into an opinion. This case would have proceeded the same in any other European jurisdiction (France, Germany, Italy, Etc.), which isnt a fact because @NellyPB says so.
Do your own research, but you can start with the CMK and the TCK.
Now theres a red notice and a warrant issued by Türkiye, Miss Pedo is a fugitive, thats a fact. She is for now able to hide in the UK, but again, denying extradition doesnt make the warrant go away.
Im sure Miss Pedo is experiencing mental health issues regarding her looming incarceration in Türkiye, and that makes her depressed. Im also sure there are many child abusers incarcerated who are also sad and/or depressed about their predicament. Dont do crimes.
If Miss. Pedos case was so strong and the governments case so weak that the Court would poo its pants than Miss Pedo should avail herself of the opportunity to do that and secure their exoneration.