Hong Kong: Exodus & Hiring
Hong Kong: Exodus & Hiring
Hi,
Any idea what hiring might be like this year?
I've always wanted to live in Hong Kong and I'm thinking of just biting the bullet and applying while everyone is leaving...Thoughts?
Any idea what hiring might be like this year?
I've always wanted to live in Hong Kong and I'm thinking of just biting the bullet and applying while everyone is leaving...Thoughts?
Response
The same as usual. There are three issues working against you: First, all those people leaving are taking their school age children with them. Second, ISs are usually cautious about hiring during time of uncertainty. Third, HK is still a little tiger thats a desirable location, it never had the market descriptors that mainland China had.
Re: Hong Kong: Exodus & Hiring
Got it. Thanks for your input.
I'm looking at a few schools and noticed one of the larger ones is of Christian faith. I assume they would not hire an atheist, right...?
Also, are ESF schools comparable in package and benefits to that of tier 1 or 2 international schools?
I'm looking at a few schools and noticed one of the larger ones is of Christian faith. I assume they would not hire an atheist, right...?
Also, are ESF schools comparable in package and benefits to that of tier 1 or 2 international schools?
Reply
@Ntmya5
That depends. Some christian ISs live and breath there religious affiliation. They often require ITs to sign a declaration of faith and live by whatever tenants they subscribe to. You can be dismissed for violating them even on your own time. Then there are other that simply require you dont disparage their faith and you can believe whatever you want.
No.
That depends. Some christian ISs live and breath there religious affiliation. They often require ITs to sign a declaration of faith and live by whatever tenants they subscribe to. You can be dismissed for violating them even on your own time. Then there are other that simply require you dont disparage their faith and you can believe whatever you want.
No.
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Re: Hong Kong: Exodus & Hiring
Ntmya5 wrote:
> Also, are ESF schools comparable in package and benefits to that of tier 1
> or 2 international schools?
Yes, there are schools that pay more, but there are plenty of tier 2 schools that pay less than ESF and offer similar or worse benefits.
ESF has been mentioned by a good number ITs in Hong Kong as tier 1, while others leave it off their tier 1 lists. Even if it's not tier 1, it's definitely tier 2, although there will be differences between the different ESF schools, so some might be good (upper tier 2) where other will be average.
When you look at salaries of HK international schools, be sure to also check what they offer as housing allowance. Some schools will pay very high allowances, others will not give you one although usually the salary will be higher to attempt to make up for that. Don't be dazzled by a high salary if a housing allowance isn't provided, as rents are VERY high. Do the maths to see what disposable income you'll have left after paying rent and taxes.
> Also, are ESF schools comparable in package and benefits to that of tier 1
> or 2 international schools?
Yes, there are schools that pay more, but there are plenty of tier 2 schools that pay less than ESF and offer similar or worse benefits.
ESF has been mentioned by a good number ITs in Hong Kong as tier 1, while others leave it off their tier 1 lists. Even if it's not tier 1, it's definitely tier 2, although there will be differences between the different ESF schools, so some might be good (upper tier 2) where other will be average.
When you look at salaries of HK international schools, be sure to also check what they offer as housing allowance. Some schools will pay very high allowances, others will not give you one although usually the salary will be higher to attempt to make up for that. Don't be dazzled by a high salary if a housing allowance isn't provided, as rents are VERY high. Do the maths to see what disposable income you'll have left after paying rent and taxes.
Moderation
Evaluative posts are not permitted in the public forum
While tier ranking includes salary and comp it is not the only factor in determining tier status. ISs can not buy their way into a higher tier.
The list of @Heliotrope is over inflated.
While tier ranking includes salary and comp it is not the only factor in determining tier status. ISs can not buy their way into a higher tier.
The list of @Heliotrope is over inflated.
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- Posts: 1171
- Joined: Sun May 13, 2018 1:48 am
Re: Moderation
> While tier ranking includes salary and comp it is not the only factor in
> determining tier status. ISs can not buy their way into a higher tier.
Totally agree. That's why I didn't say they can. And as said, there are HK schools that pay more. Salary alone is also not the only reason why some teacher rank it the way they do.
For most teachers salary is a big factor though, more than I think is smart as there are indeed many more factors that will determine your happiness should considered, but I do understand people worry about their self-funded retirement.
> The list of @Heliotrope is over inflated.
I'm not referring to a list. So when commenting about a school organisation that I myself haven't worked at I'll only say what I've read/heard teachers that have worked there wrote/said about it.
> determining tier status. ISs can not buy their way into a higher tier.
Totally agree. That's why I didn't say they can. And as said, there are HK schools that pay more. Salary alone is also not the only reason why some teacher rank it the way they do.
For most teachers salary is a big factor though, more than I think is smart as there are indeed many more factors that will determine your happiness should considered, but I do understand people worry about their self-funded retirement.
> The list of @Heliotrope is over inflated.
I'm not referring to a list. So when commenting about a school organisation that I myself haven't worked at I'll only say what I've read/heard teachers that have worked there wrote/said about it.
re: Moderation
@Heliotrope
Salary is a big factor for a lot of ITs but as weve had this discussion before countless times (and it looks like were going to have it again with another couple pages of posts going back and forth). Tier status is not only subjective factors, its mostly objective factors. Tier status is not individual to an IT or what an IT thinks. An IT can be very happy at their tier 3 IS, its still a tier 3 IS and an IT can be miserable at their tier 1 IS, its still a tier 1 IS.
Even in this case the comp (not only salary) as the LW stipulated in their post "package and benefits" isnt comparable to the median for tier 1 or tier 2 ISs in HK.
Oh, and just because I think you deserve the whole cupcake and the Hello Kitty sprinkles; I only post from experience and reliable and trusted sources.
Salary is a big factor for a lot of ITs but as weve had this discussion before countless times (and it looks like were going to have it again with another couple pages of posts going back and forth). Tier status is not only subjective factors, its mostly objective factors. Tier status is not individual to an IT or what an IT thinks. An IT can be very happy at their tier 3 IS, its still a tier 3 IS and an IT can be miserable at their tier 1 IS, its still a tier 1 IS.
Even in this case the comp (not only salary) as the LW stipulated in their post "package and benefits" isnt comparable to the median for tier 1 or tier 2 ISs in HK.
Oh, and just because I think you deserve the whole cupcake and the Hello Kitty sprinkles; I only post from experience and reliable and trusted sources.
Re: Hong Kong: Exodus & Hiring
Got it. Thank you both for your input.
I've been snooping around school websites and noticed that some encourage you to send in "Initial inquiries or expressions of interest." I've never heard it put this way but it basically means "letter of intent", right? Regardless of a posted opening?
I've been snooping around school websites and noticed that some encourage you to send in "Initial inquiries or expressions of interest." I've never heard it put this way but it basically means "letter of intent", right? Regardless of a posted opening?
Reply
@Ntmya5
Short Answer: If youre applying on the circuit no, if your applying off the circuit than yes, maybe.
Long Answer:
Historically, HK has always been its own little niche but essentially, its difficult to get in but once in employment movement within HK is relatively easy. Typically what happens is an ET uses the NET scheme to get into HK teaching ESOL and once there its relatively easy though a somewhat long road getting professional edu credentials and qualifications recognized so that an IT can obtain RT (Registered Teacher) status (Professional grade credential). Once that is accomplished than a lot of 'off circuit' ISs open up. Off circuit is the realm of ISs that advertise vacancies locally and dont use conventional recruiting, job services or agencies (premium and non-premium) to obtain LHs (Local Hires). 'On Circuit' is the conventional practice of using recruiting, job services or agencies to attract predominately OSH (OverSeas Hires) ITs. 'On Circuit' is a much smaller set but much more visible employment realm. You cant really avail yourself to the 'Off Circuit' realm because you have to for all practical purposes already be in HK to follow it. These are ISs but more predominately HK DSs that youre looking at. This is why I have often suggested to our readership that if you really want to work in a particular location that seems absent from 'on circuit' recruiting than yes youll take a bigger risk and absorb more costs but get yourself to wherever that location is and start looking, because youll then have awareness and growing access to the 'off circuit' ISs/DSs.
So why are cold applications/initial inquiries/expressions of interest something of a thing because they are a waste of time for 'on circuit' ISs. Its a serious waste of time having someone on the ISs staff catalog and index those applications and then start to cold contact ITs who for a large part may not even be available for a variety of reasons. Its easier, more efficient, and more effective to post a conventional vacancy and see what applications and resumes come in. 'Off circuit' however benefits from both location and a much smaller file drawer of previous applicants. Keeping a small number of recent (last year or two) applications on file of ITs who are local and sorted by subject is a much smaller roll of potential candidates. These are ITs that can start on very short notice and require very little in the way of resources to onboard them compared to an OSH hire.
So first, letter of intent (also called a MoU, or Memorandum of Understanding) is more a document an IS and an IT complete at an in person fair where the availability or practicality of creating and executing onsite contracts is prohibitive.
Second, Initial inquiries/Expressions of interest are just cold, unsolicited application packets consisting mainly of a cover letter and/or resume but may include a full application for the IS. You cant really utilize this pathway if your not local though. If you submit such an application as an OSH it may be kept but most likely its just going to be binned or forgotten.
An IS may keep your Unsolicited application/Initial inquiries/Expressions of interest on file for substitute/relief/supply opportunities but again you have to be there and to stay there youre going to need a job, like teaching ESOL in the evening and keeping yourself available for day work should an IS call. Work well enough for them for a while and you may find yourself getting a contact for a FTE appointment in the future, but again you have to be there or at least be close enough that you can travel into HK on short notice often enough without breaking the bank. South Eastern China, such as Shenzhen is usually one of the better options. Its far less expensive to live there and work there, ESOL positions are plentiful. Of course COVID complicates this.
Short Answer: If youre applying on the circuit no, if your applying off the circuit than yes, maybe.
Long Answer:
Historically, HK has always been its own little niche but essentially, its difficult to get in but once in employment movement within HK is relatively easy. Typically what happens is an ET uses the NET scheme to get into HK teaching ESOL and once there its relatively easy though a somewhat long road getting professional edu credentials and qualifications recognized so that an IT can obtain RT (Registered Teacher) status (Professional grade credential). Once that is accomplished than a lot of 'off circuit' ISs open up. Off circuit is the realm of ISs that advertise vacancies locally and dont use conventional recruiting, job services or agencies (premium and non-premium) to obtain LHs (Local Hires). 'On Circuit' is the conventional practice of using recruiting, job services or agencies to attract predominately OSH (OverSeas Hires) ITs. 'On Circuit' is a much smaller set but much more visible employment realm. You cant really avail yourself to the 'Off Circuit' realm because you have to for all practical purposes already be in HK to follow it. These are ISs but more predominately HK DSs that youre looking at. This is why I have often suggested to our readership that if you really want to work in a particular location that seems absent from 'on circuit' recruiting than yes youll take a bigger risk and absorb more costs but get yourself to wherever that location is and start looking, because youll then have awareness and growing access to the 'off circuit' ISs/DSs.
So why are cold applications/initial inquiries/expressions of interest something of a thing because they are a waste of time for 'on circuit' ISs. Its a serious waste of time having someone on the ISs staff catalog and index those applications and then start to cold contact ITs who for a large part may not even be available for a variety of reasons. Its easier, more efficient, and more effective to post a conventional vacancy and see what applications and resumes come in. 'Off circuit' however benefits from both location and a much smaller file drawer of previous applicants. Keeping a small number of recent (last year or two) applications on file of ITs who are local and sorted by subject is a much smaller roll of potential candidates. These are ITs that can start on very short notice and require very little in the way of resources to onboard them compared to an OSH hire.
So first, letter of intent (also called a MoU, or Memorandum of Understanding) is more a document an IS and an IT complete at an in person fair where the availability or practicality of creating and executing onsite contracts is prohibitive.
Second, Initial inquiries/Expressions of interest are just cold, unsolicited application packets consisting mainly of a cover letter and/or resume but may include a full application for the IS. You cant really utilize this pathway if your not local though. If you submit such an application as an OSH it may be kept but most likely its just going to be binned or forgotten.
An IS may keep your Unsolicited application/Initial inquiries/Expressions of interest on file for substitute/relief/supply opportunities but again you have to be there and to stay there youre going to need a job, like teaching ESOL in the evening and keeping yourself available for day work should an IS call. Work well enough for them for a while and you may find yourself getting a contact for a FTE appointment in the future, but again you have to be there or at least be close enough that you can travel into HK on short notice often enough without breaking the bank. South Eastern China, such as Shenzhen is usually one of the better options. Its far less expensive to live there and work there, ESOL positions are plentiful. Of course COVID complicates this.
Re: Hong Kong: Exodus & Hiring
Ntmya5 wrote:
> Got it. Thanks for your input.
>
> I'm looking at a few schools and noticed one of the larger ones is of
> Christian faith. I assume they would not hire an atheist, right...?
>
> Also, are ESF schools comparable in package and benefits to that of tier 1
> or 2 international schools?
.
.
I am currently in Hong Kong. The Christian school you mention does have some atheists on staff but they just don't go around sharing their atheist persuasion with their co-workers.
ESF pays well. They are lower tier 1 or upper tier 2 schools and the pay is in the ballpark of other upper tier 2 schools here.
Hong Kong is still a good place. You'll like it here and if you land a job at ESF you will save well. Your lifestyle and your location will determine how much exactly and the difference in savings on the same salary can be be huge in Hong Kong. If you have any other questions, feel free to ask. I don't check this forum very often anymore but I'll try to check again soon.
> Got it. Thanks for your input.
>
> I'm looking at a few schools and noticed one of the larger ones is of
> Christian faith. I assume they would not hire an atheist, right...?
>
> Also, are ESF schools comparable in package and benefits to that of tier 1
> or 2 international schools?
.
.
I am currently in Hong Kong. The Christian school you mention does have some atheists on staff but they just don't go around sharing their atheist persuasion with their co-workers.
ESF pays well. They are lower tier 1 or upper tier 2 schools and the pay is in the ballpark of other upper tier 2 schools here.
Hong Kong is still a good place. You'll like it here and if you land a job at ESF you will save well. Your lifestyle and your location will determine how much exactly and the difference in savings on the same salary can be be huge in Hong Kong. If you have any other questions, feel free to ask. I don't check this forum very often anymore but I'll try to check again soon.
Re: Hong Kong: Exodus & Hiring
Lots of useful info. Thank you both!
If I am hired on as an overseas hire but then switch schools, would I then be considered a local hire?
Also, I'm looking at a well-known dual-language school on HK island. However, I don't speak Mandarin. Is this something that would be preferred, especially for Early Years?
If I am hired on as an overseas hire but then switch schools, would I then be considered a local hire?
Also, I'm looking at a well-known dual-language school on HK island. However, I don't speak Mandarin. Is this something that would be preferred, especially for Early Years?
Reply
@Ntmya5
Its more floater third tier coin and comp.
It depends on the IS. There isnt a rule or anything but if your recruited in country at a recruiting event (fair) you can expect to keep your OSH status. The same may be true if you have fostered no local ties, and you were recruited for the previous contract as an OSH and your moving to an IS that generally provides OSH contracts for ITs whose HOR would make them an OSH hire. Theres no rule though, and an IS is under no obligation to do so. If youve been in country a while and that can be any length of time an IS pulls out of the air they can consider you an LH for any reason or no reason.
Sometimes an IS will have an unofficial designation of semi-OSH meaning you get recurring allowances (housing, etc.) but no one-time benefits such as relocation (flights, etc.). Even LHs will get commuting and health care scheme though it may likely mean leaving the international/western provider scheme and being put on the local health care provider scheme.
It would absolutely be a preference but not a rigid requirement.
Its more floater third tier coin and comp.
It depends on the IS. There isnt a rule or anything but if your recruited in country at a recruiting event (fair) you can expect to keep your OSH status. The same may be true if you have fostered no local ties, and you were recruited for the previous contract as an OSH and your moving to an IS that generally provides OSH contracts for ITs whose HOR would make them an OSH hire. Theres no rule though, and an IS is under no obligation to do so. If youve been in country a while and that can be any length of time an IS pulls out of the air they can consider you an LH for any reason or no reason.
Sometimes an IS will have an unofficial designation of semi-OSH meaning you get recurring allowances (housing, etc.) but no one-time benefits such as relocation (flights, etc.). Even LHs will get commuting and health care scheme though it may likely mean leaving the international/western provider scheme and being put on the local health care provider scheme.
It would absolutely be a preference but not a rigid requirement.
Re: Hong Kong: Exodus & Hiring
Ntmya5 wrote:
> Got it. Thanks for your input.
>
> I'm looking at a few schools and noticed one of the larger ones is of
> Christian faith. I assume they would not hire an atheist, right...?
>
> Also, are ESF schools comparable in package and benefits to that of tier 1
> or 2 international schools?
The "Christian faith" school...I know which one you are referring to. I know several people who have worked there, most of whom are not practicing Christians, and a couple that were pretty anti-religion. It's not a faith-based school in that you have to have an active practicing faith...you would have to support the ethos of the school, which wouldn't be too difficult.
> Got it. Thanks for your input.
>
> I'm looking at a few schools and noticed one of the larger ones is of
> Christian faith. I assume they would not hire an atheist, right...?
>
> Also, are ESF schools comparable in package and benefits to that of tier 1
> or 2 international schools?
The "Christian faith" school...I know which one you are referring to. I know several people who have worked there, most of whom are not practicing Christians, and a couple that were pretty anti-religion. It's not a faith-based school in that you have to have an active practicing faith...you would have to support the ethos of the school, which wouldn't be too difficult.
Re: Hong Kong: Exodus & Hiring
Thanks for your replies, everyone.
I only have IB experience, would that make me less of a desirable candidate for some of the more well-known schools that follow Common Core?
I only have IB experience, would that make me less of a desirable candidate for some of the more well-known schools that follow Common Core?