Director Invited me Out - Help!

metooedu
Posts: 9
Joined: Mon Mar 02, 2020 7:20 am

Re: Director Invited me Out - Help!

Post by metooedu »

Again, for the billionth time, I have referred to an abuse of power.

I don't care if you personally think I undermine MeToo. You are not the person I am trying to help. I listen to victims and hear their voices and see just where things went wrong. Because I am the one who gets the phone calls and the emails from teachers who have left teaching because of this and in a few cases were contemplating suicide because of the abuse they received.

Because I am the one in the trenches doing the work and trying to get schools to align their standards with already existing standards set up by human rights organizations and companies who are already way ahead of international schools in how they address metoo issues.

Because I am the one who tries to warn others of the danger behind people using their position of power to coerce subordinates and then I have to listen to an argument about how not all men do this as if I don't already know that not all men abuse women. Far too many of them look away when it happens, but you want me to clap my hands because some don't directly abuse women. Women are by far the victims of this because the people who hold the power are mostly men who have been taught that having as much sex with women as they can makes them more powerful and manly.

How quickly you jumped to the rescue the character of an anonymous man you don't even know that you only perceived I slighted. Would you have jumped so quickly to rescue the character of a woman if her reputation and job and well-being were destroyed after she SAYS she was targeted by a man? Would you even believe her?

Psychometrika
Posts: 48
Joined: Sun Nov 20, 2016 10:08 pm

Re: Director Invited me Out - Help!

Post by Psychometrika »

Since you are asking I assume there is part of you who wants to go. It’s a matter of how much caution you can take.

Is this a purely social gathering? If yes, I would ask if I could bring a friend with me if I felt the need for caution. A male friend if I really wanted to dampen potential romantic expectations. If he says no that would be a red flag for me and I would find some excuse to not go.

If more work related with other colleagues I would just go. I can’t think of any of my prior admin who never hosted gatherings for colleagues. When your other colleagues leave just go with them and avoid being alone with him if it is a concern.

Smoko
Posts: 23
Joined: Mon Dec 30, 2019 1:41 am

Re: Director Invited me Out - Help!

Post by Smoko »

metooedu wrote:
> Again, for the billionth time, I have referred to an abuse of power.

And this is the problem - you are referring to an abuse of power when literally all that has happened is a director inviting a new employee to join him for lunch in a group setting.


metooedu wrote:
> I don't care if you personally think I undermine MeToo. You are not the
> person I am trying to help. I listen to victims and hear their voices and
> see just where things went wrong. Because I am the one who gets the phone
> calls and the emails from teachers who have left teaching because of this
> and in a few cases were contemplating suicide because of the abuse they
> received.

But who is the victim in this perfectly normal social situation?


metooedu wrote:
> Because I am the one in the trenches doing the work and trying to get
> schools to align their standards with already existing standards set up by
> human rights organizations and companies who are already way ahead of
> international schools in how they address metoo issues.
>
> Because I am the one who tries to warn others of the danger behind people
> using their position of power to coerce subordinates and then I have to
> listen to an argument about how not all men do this as if I don't already
> know that not all men abuse women. Far too many of them look away when it
> happens, but you want me to clap my hands because some don't directly abuse
> women. Women are by far the victims of this because the people who hold the
> power are mostly men who have been taught that having as much sex with
> women as they can makes them more powerful and manly.

But what part of going to a group lunch implies anything to do with sex or abuse towards women?


metooedu wrote:
> How quickly you jumped to the rescue the character of an anonymous man you
> don't even know that you only perceived I slighted. Would you have jumped
> so quickly to rescue the character of a woman if her reputation and job and
> well-being were destroyed after she SAYS she was targeted by a man? Would
> you even believe her?

Firstly, these are rhetorical questions that are unrelated to this situation. But to answer, if a woman claimed that their reputation and well-being was destroyed after being targeted by a man then I would take it extremely seriously. But again, all that has happened here is an invitation to a group lunch... Not a date, no coercion, and with plenty of other 'witnesses' who would be there if he decided to do something untoward.

blinky
Posts: 48
Joined: Tue Mar 19, 2013 1:49 pm
Location: Germany

Re: Director Invited me Out - Help!

Post by blinky »

This has to be the stupidest thread I have ever read on this website. The OP left the conversation weeks ago. She is a grown woman. If she wants to start dating this guy, who the hell cares? She's an adult! She obviously wouldn't be asking about the logistics of the whole thing if she thought the guy was a creep.

This hysterical Metoo activist needs to get banned on this website for pushing this man hating narrative and suggesting this director is some kind a predator when she hasn't even met the guy. He's probably a great guy. The OP said it herself. Enough is enough with these hysterical activists. I pay for a membership on this site to get good IS information - not the libellous ravings of a lunatic. I get enough of that for free on the youtube comments section. We already have Psyguy on here, and he is enough to deal with, although even Psyguy has some redeeming qualities and good information sometimes.

Men date their women bosses too. I've done it myself. When it ended, everything was cool. I even got a professional reference, and we are friends today. I gained nothing professionally from the situation. Just a bunch of great memories. Why? We were two adults who weren't completely insane.

Let's worry about the coronavirus and robots taking our jobs again. If the moderators don't ban this lunatic, I'm off this site for good. There are other sites out there that uphold values and quality content. This is embarrassing. This could also be a troll from some bored teacher from China locked up in their apartment. Either way, it's a total waste of time.

metooedu
Posts: 9
Joined: Mon Mar 02, 2020 7:20 am

Re: Director Invited me Out - Help!

Post by metooedu »

Once you start attacking me by calling me hysterical (a term with a lot of misogynistic history), a lunatic, a manhater, a troll from China (really?!), most people leave the discussion as they don't want to deal with the mud-slinging. These are very effective tactics to get people to look away.

Other people here have pointed out that whether the director is a good guy or bad guy (btw people are not that simple), things can go wrong. Not just for the two people directly involved, but for other people that work there. Focus on their comments and think about them if you find my comments so threatening. I am not threatened by you or your comments.

I do agree, however, that much of what needs to be said has been said here and closing this discussion is probably a good idea. I am very worried that women who are being harassed in the workplace will read it and be reminded that if they speak out about their experiences they will be labeled hysterical, a lunatic, a manhater, and (my favorite) a troll from China.

Heliotrope
Posts: 776
Joined: Sun May 13, 2018 1:48 am

Re: Director Invited me Out - Help!

Post by Heliotrope »

@metooedu

Just know that @blinky and @Smoko don't speak for all male teachers on this forum.
I think it's always good to point out how things can go wrong, and the risks involved.
Yes, it's likely that it will not escalate, but it's good to be aware that there are sadly many many cases where something that started out as a casual lunch invitation by a superior ended up in termination by the employee.

You don't seem hysterical, and I've read nothing that would want justify calling you a manhater. You're just beter informed than most of us.

blinky
Posts: 48
Joined: Tue Mar 19, 2013 1:49 pm
Location: Germany

Re: Director Invited me Out - Help!

Post by blinky »

Here is a definition of hysteria: "behavior exhibiting overwhelming or unmanageable fear or emotional excess"

Here is the definition of as misandry: "dislike of, contempt for, or ingrained prejudice against men (i.e. the male sex)"

Here are some quotes by Metoo:

1.) "That's a lot of himpathy. Power dynamics are coercive and his behavior is totally inappropriate, not only to this woman but to the other women that work in his school. I would hope if he reads this forum he would get a good slap in the face and knock it off." (This suggests you don't feel men deserve empathy and need to be beaten)

2.) "And, due to misogyny, women are blamed for most sexual misconduct." (How do you explain this with legal evidence?)

3.) "As a woman, YOU will bear the full costs of anything that goes bad and not him." (Yeah. Bill Cosby and Harvey Weinstein are on a beach right now)

And now, back to planet Metoo: "Yes, Metoo. I am completely logical and am doing nothing more than objectively pointing out the risks in a non-sexist, non-judgemental and supportive way in my assessment of a situation in which I have zero information on the particulars of the people and social context, other than the fact a male boss invited one of his employees to lunch with a group of friends. After receiving my advice, the female, has now decided she will go the next time he asks. In my calm rebuttal, (with no condescension at all) I remind her not to roll her eyes at my advice, because this is how one adult advises another adult. Yes. Completely rational. No hysteria or prejudice whatsoever."

Heliotrope
Posts: 776
Joined: Sun May 13, 2018 1:48 am

Re: Director Invited me Out - Help!

Post by Heliotrope »

You're not making very good points @blinky, and you are misrepresenting her quotes.

Power dynamics ARE coercive. And I'm quite sure the slap in the face was meant metaphorically, as reading a post on a forum can't actually slap you in the face literally.

In most cases of women ARE blamed for sexual misconduct. It's quite sickening how women are often told not to wear anything revealing because they will provoke certain inappropriate male behaviour, and their outfit is sometimes used to explain rape or other forms of sexual misconduct.
Bill Cosby and Harvey Weinstein being held accountable is the exception, not the rule. And Weinstein was only convicted for two incidents out of many. His defence was to discredit the women. Luckily this time it didn't work, but if I remember correctly his lawyer who defended many other men accused of the same, use the same tactic of blaming the victim and undermining their credibility successfully in all but one of those cases.

Look, the director might be harmless, but it's not unwise of @metooedu to point out how these things can go wrong, because they HAVE gone wrong in many similar situations, and that seriously harm someone's career and personal life.
As said, I too have seen some cases where it ended badly, and the women got the short end of the stick in all of those.

blinky
Posts: 48
Joined: Tue Mar 19, 2013 1:49 pm
Location: Germany

Re: Director Invited me Out - Help!

Post by blinky »

Heliotrope,

Of course it is important to point out the risks in any situation when we have all the facts. When we start throwing guilt and shame at someone for inviting someone out for lunch with a group of people, without really knowing the true intentions behind the invitation or knowing who else was even invited, we are following a truly deranged line of reasoning.

As a visible minority, I experience these types of assumptions and hysteria all the time when I travel, but not so much in my home country anymore. Because I belong to a racial group that is more often convicted of crimes, I have had many people cross to the other side of the street when they see me in their path. Although this is somewhat understandable from an instinctual level because of ingrained stereotypes in society, history and reductionist interpretations of crime statistics, I would be much more hurt if people were writing "what to do" if they see a _______ man walking towards them on the street and throwing words like ...athy to suggest I shouldn't be worthy of empathy because of what I look like. I have had shopping clerks follow me around stores to the point of harassment because of a small group of people who look like me are known to be "gangsters" and "thugs." We are all human beings that deserve the benefit of the doubt and to be innocent until proven guilty, unless we have demonstrated, as individuals, some serious character flaws.I will also be clear that If this director insinuated any kind of sexual overtures toward this teacher or made her uncomfortable enough to not want to work at the school, then of course this situation needs some swift action and strong words.

As you have already made up your mind that I am some kind of misogynist, and you feel the need to attack my position as a man rather than my objections to what I feel are faulty assumptions and a dangerous slippery slope, there is no point on furthering this discussion with you, especially since your blanket statements, such as "Women are blamed for sexual misconduct more than men," are not qualified in any way to represent this particular situation, because we barely know anything about these people or even the intentions of the man. If you think Metooedu's examples of woman's rights in the Middle East and India are suitable parallels to interpret the "coercive power dynamics" between most probably (granted this is also an assumption but it based on the OP's descriptions and writing) two 30-40 something educated professionals from Western, liberal democracies with clean criminal records who have dedicated their lives to educating children, I think both you and Metooedu wasted a lot of money going to university.

I have shared this thread with my wife and a female colleague, and they both think Metooedu's responses indicate prejudice against men. If you want to live in a society with people who jump to shame and vilify people who invite people they work with to lunch with a large group of people, I hope the mob turns on you one day. I really do. This is obviously a lesson you will need to learn in life. It's always fun to be in a mob until the mob turns on you.

I am 100% finished with this thread. All the same, I hope you stay safe during this pandemic, Heliotrope.

Heliotrope
Posts: 776
Joined: Sun May 13, 2018 1:48 am

Re: Director Invited me Out - Help!

Post by Heliotrope »

> Of course it is important to point out the risks in any situation when we
> have all the facts. When we start throwing guilt and shame at someone for
> inviting someone out for lunch with a group of people, without really
> knowing the true intentions behind the invitation or knowing who else was
> even invited, we are following a truly deranged line of reasoning.

All the facts?
The facts mentioned in the initial post are enough to warrant @metooedu's words of caution.
Better safe than sorry.


> I will also be clear that If this director insinuated any kind of sexual
> overtures toward this teacher or made her uncomfortable enough to not want
> to work at the school, then of course this situation needs some swift
> action and strong words.

That would be necessary if it was anyone, not just the director.
The problem with a director asking an underling to lunch is that if it leads to a relationship and it ends, it could have very serious repercussions for her career. Even just asking her puts her in tough spot, since she might feel that she has to say yes to her superior. It's about the power dynamic, if it had been another teacher asking her to lunch, it would have been a non-issue. The director should have been smart enough to avoid a situation like that.


> As you have already made up your mind that I am some kind of misogynist

I have not, not have I said anything that would indicate that. Please explain what is was I wrote that made you feel like I think that.


> I think both you and Metooedu wasted a lot of
> money going to university.

Who's jumping to conclusions now?


> I have shared this thread with my wife and a female colleague, and they
> both think Metooedu's responses indicate prejudice against men. If you want
> to live in a society with people who jump to shame and vilify people who
> invite people they work with to lunch with a large group of people, I hope
> the mob turns on you one day. I really do. This is obviously a lesson you
> will need to learn in life. It's always fun to be in a mob until the mob
> turns on you.

Refreshing to read your unfiltered opinion that you hope a mob turns on myself and @metooedu.
Actually, I disagree with your statement that "it's always fun to be in a mob".
And if you think the MeToo-movement is the mob, it might help to talk to some of them and hear what they experienced. The MeToo movement (and I think you're overestimating how organized 'they' are) are women that have the courage to accuse their rapists. Many women are ashamed after a rape, or blame themselves, and shouldn't be seen as a mob when they speak up. The mob are the men that sent them threatening messages after they come forward. Read what some of the women that accused high-profile rapists got in their inboxes (death and rape threats), and you'll know what the real mob is.

Inviting someone who work WITH you to lunch isn't a problem, but inviting someone who works FOR you to lunch is a different story.


> I am 100% finished with this thread. All the same, I hope you stay safe
> during this pandemic, Heliotrope.

Me too ;), let's agree to disagree.
And health to you and yours as well.

PsyGuy
Posts: 9590
Joined: Wed Oct 12, 2011 9:51 am
Location: Northern Europe

Discussion

Post by PsyGuy »

@metooedu

We disagree on a number of issues:

She hasnt been targeted. Hes a man shes a woman he asked her to lunch. Even if he has romantic intentions, thats how romance works. If she doesnt want to get involved we have yet to hear that.
It can absolutely go bad, but any relationship can go bad.
Shes actually in an AMAZING situation. She gets to date a guy shes attracted too and she can basically do nothing going forward. Directors gf beats rules and policies and if things sour, reference or not she can play the victim card and thats on top of the extra comp and consideration she can leverage.

Its not a legal issue, its a having leverage issue for if and when shes seeking redress and compensation from ownership. Have nothing but a bunch of handwritten notes and thats worth less than the paper they are written on. Have video, pictures, audio and email and thats something that if made pubic could have negatives for the IS thats worth something in coin and consideration. This IT needs to think what she can get out of the director and what she can get out of the IS.

Ownership generally doesnt dismiss ITs, thats executive leadership of which this director may be. However its typically done in consultation with and upon recommendation of senior leadership.

Drafting means nothing. They are doing nothing, they are paying lip service to a movement so they dont get blow back from being accused or being seen as sexist. They dont want to be in the position of being adjudicator of these types of issues. Child protection is much easier because there is a well codified legal system that does the heavy lifting.

Of course men can absolutely control themselves, why does that apply in this situation. Hes attracted to her, he asked her out she declined, wheres the necessity of control? Youre presumption is that being a possible supervisor his pursuit of her romantically is wrong, its not a presumption thats universally shared. Which community are you referencing, in many communities managers that are men socialize (and sometimes romantically) with office ladies (OLs), thats how these woman get married to men with salaries sufficient to support families.
Maybe unattractive woman get sexually abused (I would potentially argue that attractiveness is subjective), but this isnt sexual abuse, its dating. Theres no lesson to learn here.

Its not abuse if shes the IT hottie, male ITs are more likely to be jelly than to think this is an accountability issue.

Ignore the gossip, its gossip. Treat it like Twitter, or IG or SC, or FB.
Of course power is coercive, its not very powerful if it isnt.

We dont actually know if this director is actually in a position of power over this IT. He may not exercise direct supervisory authority and she may not directly report to him.
A smart, attractive powerful man with resources (her words) showed some interest in this IT and now its 'fear', the 'shepathy'.

You are using scenarios with bad endings while ignoring the many happy ones.
Misandry is just as serious an issue as misogyny.
You realize you are making the "hashtag" argument, that anything with a hashtag is a grave social issue worthy of consideration. This isnt a feminism forum its a general discussion forum for IE, you dont get to make the rules on what positions or opinions members can and can not express or hold.
Youre op-ed pieces are just that, opinion pieces.

@shopaholic

There isnt a relationship (yet) to attribute indiscretion too.

Lots of people do shabby things, thats how human beings are. You think social media would exist if people werent indiscreet and shabby.

@Heliotrope

The LWs post does not constitute facts, they are perceptions.

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