What are 'hardship' cities with good international schools?

[Heliotrope]

Nice list.
I definitely wouldn't want to live in any of the 35% cities, except maybe Havana. Weird that it has the same classification as Baghdad and Mogadishu, but maybe life in Havana is less enjoyable for US diplomats than for other expats?

All 30% cities are also on my personal list of hardship cities that I wouldn't consider, but I wonder why Bandung in Indonesia got 30%, as I thought it was one of the most liveable cities in Indonesia.
There are a few 25% cities I would be ok with, and I've already lived in one of them. I'm currently in a 0% city.

I think they also give some cities points for being boring.

[Thames Pirate]

I agree about Havana. I loved the city (when I visited--never lived there) even though it was still under Fidel. Maybe things have changed now, but we were staying with families rather than in tourist areas and felt safe the whole time, both in Havana and in the smaller cities/villages we visited. Great country.

[Alexandru]

The crime statistics aren't very encouraging, but I don't agree that Sao Paulo is a 'hardship' city. I live there right now, and I have never felt unsafe. If you work as a foreigner at an international school here, you would live in a 'safe' neighborhood and most likely only go out to restaurants and bars in the many 'safe' neighborhoods that the city has.

[FV2020]

US diplomats have been permanently injured by sonic attacks in Havana recently. The US and Cuba are not allies. The ratings on that list were for US diplomats.

[Illiane_Blues]

Yes, that's likely the reason for the 35% score, but there were very likely no actual sonic attacks; U.S. scientists concluded the sound was produced by lovelorn crickets, the Indies short-tailed cricket to be precise. That doesn't mean the diplomats weren't targeted some other way, but the sound they heard was almost certainly unrelated.


FV2020 wrote:
> US diplomats have been permanently injured by sonic attacks in Havana
> recently.

[Illiane_Blues]

Alexandru wrote:
> The crime statistics aren't very encouraging, but I don't agree that Sao
> Paulo is a 'hardship' city. I live there right now, and I have never felt
> unsafe. If you work as a foreigner at an international school here, you
> would live in a 'safe' neighborhood and most likely only go out to
> restaurants and bars in the many 'safe' neighborhoods that the city has.


For me it would be about to what extent you have to stay inside the safe expat bubble. Most dangerous cities will still have safe areas, for wealthy nationals and expats, but if half the city is basically off-limits, that would still make it a hardship city for me, because it limits my movements too much.
But you mention 'many' safe neighborhoods, so maybe Sao Paulo isn't a hardship city then.

I've also heard other stories though from a couple (not teachers btw) that lived there up till last year, and they never truly felt safe, had to constantly be aware about not showing their mobile phones and jewellery, and wouldn't go out after dark by themselves, and wouldn't use the subway or busses. Their place was broken into once, and several of their friends have been robbed at gunpoint, some in their own expat-heavy neighborhood.

[PsyGuy]

The DOS list is not applicable to ITs its focus is on FSOs, and those involved in government work and what would be a hardship for a FSO in a politically charged job. Look at Russia, it ranks pretty high on hardship, but for an IT Moscow is a very livable location.

[MartElla]

If we're only talking about a couple of areas of the cities then that means a number of those places are not really hardship locations. The OP mentioned "Dhaka, Lagos and Manila". I've known people that loved their time in Bangladesh. Admittedly, it was a few years ago and the political situation seems to have been rocky since then, but still. The area of Manila where many of the international schools are located is new, clean and safe. Plus, you have countless tropical beaches and islands a short hop away. Maybe difficult for the single ladies. Lagos? Well, I've never heard anything good about Lagos but no doubt someone else could make a case for it.

So, for some some of the "hardship" locations might just be their perfect fit.

[PsyGuy]

Further where I disagree with @Illiane_Blues is to what extent is there an actual expat bubble to offer some security:

1) How well can you navigate day to day life with English?
2) Are there social opportunities outside a local public house, or is there one meeting pale that all the expats go to?
3) How much of a reliance on the local international hotel is there? Is that the place to dress up a bit and meet some tourists or business travelers, because you already know every bodies business and they know yours in the local expat circle?
4) Do you have to conduct all your business at 7-11? Could you actually speak with someone at your bank if you had to or does everything have to go through a secretary at your IS?
5) Can you actually talk with your property owner, or does everything have to go through the agent or again your ISs secretary?
6) Do you find yourself eating out mostly at the places around transportation points? Is your weekly ritual of eating out a brew and a sandwich at the public house, or at a shopping center? If there was a great restaurant in X could you actually get there and navigate the menu and talk to the server, or are all those things hopeless with out an interpreter or a lot of luck?
7) Could you get a button on a suit or a zipper on trousers/skirt/dress fixed? Would you spend a whole weekend or week trying to find a tailor you could talk to?
8) Is there a doctor that understand English you can see when your want/need too or would you just have to wait until it was bad enough you would go to the hospital because the pills you got at the pharmacy arent doing it?
9) Can you actually date someone like a LTR, or do you get to the point after a month where theres nothing else to say, because youve exhausted each other vocabulary, and anything more is too exhausting trying to figure out the language and the context?
10) Your friends and family are constantly worried about you because they keep reading about X in the news, and you yourself are kind of bored already after a couple months, because you really dont have time to travel, and youve seen the 4 things worth seeing, and now its just the same routine over and over?
11) The weather is all of nice for 2-3 months but the rest of the time its not worth going out because its so hot or cold or wet out?
12) Youre tired of everyone elses problems and your own problems because its the same problems but neither you nor anyone else have neither the time or energy to get them fixed or do something about them. It all just comes down to work, because there isnt time for anything else, because everything worth doing isnt there.

[Illiane_Blues]

How is that disagreeing with me?

[Illiane_Blues]

MartElla wrote:
> If we're only talking about a couple of areas of the cities then that means
> a number of those places are not really hardship locations. The OP
> mentioned "Dhaka, Lagos and Manila". I've known people that loved
> their time in Bangladesh. Admittedly, it was a few years ago and the
> political situation seems to have been rocky since then, but still. The
> area of Manila where many of the international schools are located is new,
> clean and safe. Plus, you have countless tropical beaches and islands a
> short hop away. Maybe difficult for the single ladies. Lagos? Well, I've
> never heard anything good about Lagos but no doubt someone else could make
> a case for it.
>
> So, for some some of the "hardship" locations might just be their
> perfect fit.


You can love your time anywhere I think, with the right attitude and realistic expectations.
And of course everyone has their own hardship list, but some cities will make it onto almost everyone's list, and some only onto a few.

But when I read some reports on Talesmag about Dhaka's security situation it doesn't encourage me to move there: https://www.talesmag.com/real-post-repo ... wers/56/70
And likewise the ones about the air quality: https://www.talesmag.com/real-post-repo ... wers/56/69

The Bonifacio Global City area in Manilla is the perfect example of an expat (& rich nationals) bubble. When I live abroad, I would like to experience the city I live in, and not just be in an area almost indistinguishable from expat bubbles elsewhere. The top school in Manilla is one of the schools that might make me reconsider that though.
But plenty of people who would be happy in such a bubble, and to each his/her own.

[Thames Pirate]

One of the advantages of Europe is that in most cities, you are NOT in an expat bubble. It's what many people don't like, but for me it's a HUGE plus. I didn't move abroad to live at home but far away. I didn't move abroad to make money, either. But that's me.

For me, a hardship city is any where I as a woman don't have a voice. That rules out a lot of places that others like or even seek out for the money. I could live with a lot of other things, but that is a biggie.

[Illiane_Blues]

Thames Pirate wrote:
> One of the advantages of Europe is that in most cities, you are NOT in an
> expat bubble. It's what many people don't like, but for me it's a HUGE
> plus. I didn't move abroad to live at home but far away. I didn't move
> abroad to make money, either. But that's me.


I agree.
The main reason for me to stay away from some hardship cities is that I don't want to be limited to the bubble because of safety concerns. I'd like to 'experience' the city I'm in (sounds awful, but lack of a better word), and not go from upscale restaurant to upscale gym to expat supermarket in a taxi.
I'd rather walk around random neighbourhoods and get a glimpse of what local life is for the majority of the population, stumble upon interesting shops, eat at a random cheap eatery, then take a local bus home.
Even without no go-areas, there are of course still limits to how much you can really experience of a city as an expat, but I have no interest in doing champagne brunches at the InterContinental Hotel or go to embassy parties.
But there are no 0% crime cities, and I can live with a few neighbourhoods being off-limits.

Some cities/cultures fascinate me, so I might consider a city like Islamabad, if I find out it's reasonably safe to move around a fair share of the city. And some schools really do make up for some hardship, to a degree.

[Heliotrope]

Thames Pirate wrote:
> One of the advantages of Europe is that in most cities, you are NOT in an
> expat bubble. It's what many people don't like, but for me it's a HUGE
> plus. I didn't move abroad to live at home but far away. I didn't move
> abroad to make money, either. But that's me.


This is one of the reasons I'm consider Europe right now.
It's unfortunate that all, or at least most, of the countries with great weather there don't have great schools, and those schools all have very low or no savings potential (I'm also not in it for the money, but would like to retire at some point).

[Thames Pirate]

True, Spain and Italy pay in sunshine as much as cash.

The lack of a bubble (or a much more permeable one) and the work-life balance--and the clean air, stability, etc.--are the bonuses. The weather and the lower savings are the downsides. But if you live like a local and not an expat, you can do so well.