http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/bantleman- ... -1.3463266
Just appalling! There will be some - maybe one- who will insist that justice is being done here. But ALL the evidence indicates that nothing close to due process, even by Indonesian standards, was followed. In my opinion, no-one should even think about Indonesia as a destination now.
Bantleman
Discussion
Of course justice is being done.
The reality is that even in the most liberal criminal justice systems the standard is reasonable doubt, not absolute or all doubt. NB was convicted, and on appeal overt turned on a very, very minor technicality, there was never any finding of egregious error by the court. Now the highest court has reversed and reinstated the conviction. Even by western judicial systems not guilty is not the same as innocent, NB cant prove equivicially that he didnt do it. We have a child saying he did, and despite all the irregularities the accusations and charges may well be true. We do not know.
If NB is smart he had an exit plan and is gone. If not he does some time, makes a deal (confesses) and gets a pardon.
The reality is that even in the most liberal criminal justice systems the standard is reasonable doubt, not absolute or all doubt. NB was convicted, and on appeal overt turned on a very, very minor technicality, there was never any finding of egregious error by the court. Now the highest court has reversed and reinstated the conviction. Even by western judicial systems not guilty is not the same as innocent, NB cant prove equivicially that he didnt do it. We have a child saying he did, and despite all the irregularities the accusations and charges may well be true. We do not know.
If NB is smart he had an exit plan and is gone. If not he does some time, makes a deal (confesses) and gets a pardon.
Re: Bantleman
pro·voc·a·tive
pr??väk?div/
adjective
causing annoyance, anger, or another strong reaction, especially deliberately.
pr??väk?div/
adjective
causing annoyance, anger, or another strong reaction, especially deliberately.
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Ifyousayso
- Posts: 26
- Joined: Tue Apr 21, 2015 2:55 pm
Re: Bantleman
If you want western standards of justice then toy have to live in the West. I don't know enough to make a judgement but like less safe roads and dengue fever this is one of the risks you choose to take when you live in certain parts of the world.
Re: Bantleman
"NB was convicted, and on appeal overturned on a very, very minor technicality..."
@psyguy this was a very, very good effort at buffoonery for post #4998!
As it happens, the minor technicality was that there was insufficient evidence to support a conviction. Specifically, there was no medical evidence whatsoever that any assault on any child had ever taken place. What a numbskull you are.
So why the SC verdict? Two possible reasons:
A) There is a surreptitious land grab going on. The JIS campus is exceedingly valuable. If this case can drive the school out of business, someone stands to make a fortune.
B) The janitor who died was beaten to death by the police. Their claim was that he drank bleach out of remorse at his wickedness. If no abuse ever took place, then self-evidently the police claim is nonsense, they become the guilty . and the judiciary and politicians who supported them are made to look stupid.
There are other possible reasons to explain all this, but what is definitely NOT the case is that latest events are a manifestation of justice - as you claim.
@psyguy this was a very, very good effort at buffoonery for post #4998!
As it happens, the minor technicality was that there was insufficient evidence to support a conviction. Specifically, there was no medical evidence whatsoever that any assault on any child had ever taken place. What a numbskull you are.
So why the SC verdict? Two possible reasons:
A) There is a surreptitious land grab going on. The JIS campus is exceedingly valuable. If this case can drive the school out of business, someone stands to make a fortune.
B) The janitor who died was beaten to death by the police. Their claim was that he drank bleach out of remorse at his wickedness. If no abuse ever took place, then self-evidently the police claim is nonsense, they become the guilty . and the judiciary and politicians who supported them are made to look stupid.
There are other possible reasons to explain all this, but what is definitely NOT the case is that latest events are a manifestation of justice - as you claim.
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global_nomad
- Posts: 72
- Joined: Thu Jan 07, 2016 12:12 pm
Re: Bantleman
Walter is absolutely correct. Neal's and Ferdi's original convictions were overturned to due insufficient evidence, full stop. Not sure where PsyGuy heard that the convictions were "overt turned (sic) on a very, very minor technicality, there was never any finding of egregious error by the court." Please provide the source for this, Psyguy, to back up your claim.
Discussion
This is an appropriate post for my 5000th
No there was not insufficient evidence, the technical issue was on the admissibility of some part of the evidence. No one in the Indonesian prosecutes office stated there was insufficient evidence to convict, and the supreme court of Indonesia has published its findings that the admissibility was not an issue.
There is medical evidence, just not evidence that can be replicated outside of Indonesia, which under Indonesian rules of criminal procedure is not a requirement for their admission.
There is no indication at all that enrollment or attendance at JIS presents any threat to the IS, nor will result in JIS closing.
This is Indonesia the government doesnt have to cover up for the police, no court is going to take the word of sworn officers over a witness/victim that is unable to testify. Thats just business as usual.
The cause of the convictions as i theorize are:
1) NB committed all the assaults hes been convicted of.
2) This is a civil suite money grab that didnt pan out for the parent that instigated the proceedings, the criminal case was just an adjutant to support the civil case. However, since the civil case has been thrown out the parent is just trying to save face and not face criminal charges themselves. The only deep pocket was JIS.
3) This is a high profile case and the politics of the Indonesian government want to send a message that foreigners are not special, above the law, etc.
My position is that its a combination of all three, I believe something inappropriate happened, the parent ina momentary decision decided to take advantage of the situation and see how much coin they could get out of it, and when JIS wasnt going to pay up, it became an issue of saving face, the parent needs to maintain the position of their poor child, and not that they were trying to make a money grab and lost. The Indonesian government had a juicy case land on their desks that they can use to show the affluent west that foreigners should demonstrate respect for poor countries like Indonesia, and this case gave them the opportunity.
The opinion and position of the supreme court of Indonesia carries infinitely more weight and authority than the claims of one @walter, whos opinion has no weight or authority in regards to the issue of what is and isnt justice whose ideas while entertaining have zero relevance.
@global_nomad
Do your own research, you can read the order of the South Jakarta High Court (court of appeals).
The Indonesian Supreme court disagrees on the sufficiency of the evidence, and their opinions matters more than yours or the the high courts. They affirmed the findings of the trial court (district court), the findings of the Indonesian Supreme court are similar to those of the criminal appeals courts in the UK, CAN and USA.
No there was not insufficient evidence, the technical issue was on the admissibility of some part of the evidence. No one in the Indonesian prosecutes office stated there was insufficient evidence to convict, and the supreme court of Indonesia has published its findings that the admissibility was not an issue.
There is medical evidence, just not evidence that can be replicated outside of Indonesia, which under Indonesian rules of criminal procedure is not a requirement for their admission.
There is no indication at all that enrollment or attendance at JIS presents any threat to the IS, nor will result in JIS closing.
This is Indonesia the government doesnt have to cover up for the police, no court is going to take the word of sworn officers over a witness/victim that is unable to testify. Thats just business as usual.
The cause of the convictions as i theorize are:
1) NB committed all the assaults hes been convicted of.
2) This is a civil suite money grab that didnt pan out for the parent that instigated the proceedings, the criminal case was just an adjutant to support the civil case. However, since the civil case has been thrown out the parent is just trying to save face and not face criminal charges themselves. The only deep pocket was JIS.
3) This is a high profile case and the politics of the Indonesian government want to send a message that foreigners are not special, above the law, etc.
My position is that its a combination of all three, I believe something inappropriate happened, the parent ina momentary decision decided to take advantage of the situation and see how much coin they could get out of it, and when JIS wasnt going to pay up, it became an issue of saving face, the parent needs to maintain the position of their poor child, and not that they were trying to make a money grab and lost. The Indonesian government had a juicy case land on their desks that they can use to show the affluent west that foreigners should demonstrate respect for poor countries like Indonesia, and this case gave them the opportunity.
The opinion and position of the supreme court of Indonesia carries infinitely more weight and authority than the claims of one @walter, whos opinion has no weight or authority in regards to the issue of what is and isnt justice whose ideas while entertaining have zero relevance.
@global_nomad
Do your own research, you can read the order of the South Jakarta High Court (court of appeals).
The Indonesian Supreme court disagrees on the sufficiency of the evidence, and their opinions matters more than yours or the the high courts. They affirmed the findings of the trial court (district court), the findings of the Indonesian Supreme court are similar to those of the criminal appeals courts in the UK, CAN and USA.
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global_nomad
- Posts: 72
- Joined: Thu Jan 07, 2016 12:12 pm
Re: Bantleman
I must be nuts to attempt to have a civil and factual exchange with you, PsyGuy. lol I've done my research on this and can say with confidence that I know more about this case than most people (including you by the hurtful rubbish you are posting here). You've brought up multiple claims that are 100% incorrect, but I really don't have the time or energy to refute every one of your points. You'll just spin the facts the way you always do in an apparent effort to impress yourself (that's what you do for fun). So I'll just do the sensible thing and put you on my ignore list as most knowledgeable and experienced international educators apparently do. OzGrad nailed it earlier in this thread.
Meanwhile, if anyone wants to know the facts about the case visit: http://freeneilandferdi.org/
Meanwhile, if anyone wants to know the facts about the case visit: http://freeneilandferdi.org/
Re: Bantleman
the indonesian justice system is a travesty.
this case, taken together with steps earlier in indo that ramp up the nationalist fervor, make the country a undesirable place to work. i wish it wasn't so - my time there was amazing and the people kind and friendly.
sadly, i'm not so sure he won't be killed in indonesian prison. i know the canadian government has been trying to get through, but THAT also seems destined to produce a "losing face" situation. (idiots).
i think - if he's not killed - he'll be in jail for a few years and set free.
v.
this case, taken together with steps earlier in indo that ramp up the nationalist fervor, make the country a undesirable place to work. i wish it wasn't so - my time there was amazing and the people kind and friendly.
sadly, i'm not so sure he won't be killed in indonesian prison. i know the canadian government has been trying to get through, but THAT also seems destined to produce a "losing face" situation. (idiots).
i think - if he's not killed - he'll be in jail for a few years and set free.
v.
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Artrageous
- Posts: 36
- Joined: Sun Oct 20, 2013 2:49 am
Re: Bantleman
It is such a sad situation for those two guys plus the cleaners who clearly are all innocent. I'm not going to argue with Psyguy's opinions as I am not sure how much he has actually read about the case. I hope that justice prevails, or at the very least good sense does, and that they all get out of jail.
Reply
@global_nomad
I have no doubt you know more about the case than most.
1) NB was convicted by the trial court.
2) The appeals court reversed the conviction based on the admissibility of some evidence.
3) The prosecutor appealed to the supreme court they reinstated the conviction and added a year.
4) NB is a pedo sex offender rapist as determined by the competent judicial authority of Indonesia and sentenced to 11 years in confinement.
What about that is incorrect?
What makes your opinion and findings and well anything so much more superior? Are you a judge, are you privy to each and every piece of evidence that may not have been disclosed?
There is a little boy that says NB sexually assault him, how do you make the little boy disappear? That testimony doesnt go away, all you can do is argue it shouldnt count, that doesnt make it go away.
Despite all you claim to know, what you dont know is what did or did not happen, you werent there, NB may very well have done everything hes been convicted of. Maybe not in the way it was presented, but you dont know.
@vandsmith
Yes the Indonesian judicial system is a travesty. NB either knew this or should have known it. The real crime here is arrogance. Another westerner who thinks their embassy, passport, etc is going to insulate them from whatever the mess of what passes for law Indonesia there is. NBs mistake was not pushing the button on the exit plan when he had the opportunity.
Unfortunately he was already been apprehended again. He does have an option to apply for judicial review, but at this point with the supreme court ruling, I doubt they will overturn such a high profile case.
He's is general population for long term prisoners, and with the nature of his conviction hes not going to last for very long.
I have no doubt you know more about the case than most.
1) NB was convicted by the trial court.
2) The appeals court reversed the conviction based on the admissibility of some evidence.
3) The prosecutor appealed to the supreme court they reinstated the conviction and added a year.
4) NB is a pedo sex offender rapist as determined by the competent judicial authority of Indonesia and sentenced to 11 years in confinement.
What about that is incorrect?
What makes your opinion and findings and well anything so much more superior? Are you a judge, are you privy to each and every piece of evidence that may not have been disclosed?
There is a little boy that says NB sexually assault him, how do you make the little boy disappear? That testimony doesnt go away, all you can do is argue it shouldnt count, that doesnt make it go away.
Despite all you claim to know, what you dont know is what did or did not happen, you werent there, NB may very well have done everything hes been convicted of. Maybe not in the way it was presented, but you dont know.
@vandsmith
Yes the Indonesian judicial system is a travesty. NB either knew this or should have known it. The real crime here is arrogance. Another westerner who thinks their embassy, passport, etc is going to insulate them from whatever the mess of what passes for law Indonesia there is. NBs mistake was not pushing the button on the exit plan when he had the opportunity.
Unfortunately he was already been apprehended again. He does have an option to apply for judicial review, but at this point with the supreme court ruling, I doubt they will overturn such a high profile case.
He's is general population for long term prisoners, and with the nature of his conviction hes not going to last for very long.
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Cheery Littlebottom
- Posts: 207
- Joined: Sat May 11, 2013 8:32 am
Re: Bantleman
Psyguy, get a life. You absolutely have no idea what you are talking about. You have no special insights to offer, other than the smug, trite tabloid-style assumptions you like to pass off as logic.
5,000 posts? You are essentially a troll, and this latest heap of drivel pretty much outs you as such.
I utterly and completely reject that any abuse took place, and I utterly and completely discount your nonsense on this forum. Fortunately, I think most people on the ISR forum have come to realise that your opinions are of no consequence other than to wound and cast spite on everyone who has been personally touched by this terrible chain of events.
If you had any idea of the bravery and dignity of Neil and Ferdi, and their families, you would be ashamed of yourself.
Shame on you.
5,000 posts? You are essentially a troll, and this latest heap of drivel pretty much outs you as such.
I utterly and completely reject that any abuse took place, and I utterly and completely discount your nonsense on this forum. Fortunately, I think most people on the ISR forum have come to realise that your opinions are of no consequence other than to wound and cast spite on everyone who has been personally touched by this terrible chain of events.
If you had any idea of the bravery and dignity of Neil and Ferdi, and their families, you would be ashamed of yourself.
Shame on you.
Reply
@Cheery Littlebottom
You can believe whatever you want, some people believe a spaghetti monster seeded the earth with humans. It doesnt change that you werent there, you dont know what did and did not happen, and you could just as easily be advocating for the release of a child sex offender.
More importantly no one in the Indonesian government cares what some IT or group of ITs who are armchair quarterbacking their judicial system thinks feels or believes.
You can believe whatever you want, some people believe a spaghetti monster seeded the earth with humans. It doesnt change that you werent there, you dont know what did and did not happen, and you could just as easily be advocating for the release of a child sex offender.
More importantly no one in the Indonesian government cares what some IT or group of ITs who are armchair quarterbacking their judicial system thinks feels or believes.