International teacher Marc Fogel in Russian prison - please help!

Heliotrope
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Re: Comment

Post by Heliotrope »

PsyGuy wrote:
> Dont do the crime if you cant do the time.

That's the problem. It seems the time (14 years of hard labor) doesn't fit the actual crime (smuggling 17 grams into the country). I don't think anyone would be outraged if he got 1 year in prison, and the amount he claimed to have smuggled is under normal circumstances sometimes punished by only a fine.
It's likely this draconian sentence is related to the US support of Ukraine, and therein lies the injustice.

But we're all operating under assumptions here.
Some believe Marc Fogel when he claims it was 17 grams and it was for self-consumption, other believe the Russian government when they claim it was a 'large amount' (which would mean over 100 grams) and was meant to be sold to students.
The Russian criminal courts have a reported conviction rate of 99%, which makes me believe justice isn't always served in Russia. Also, they are continuously lying about the war in Ukraine (or 'special operation' for those that prefer that desciption).
PsyGuy
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Post by PsyGuy »

@Heliotrope

No its not. Administrative level offense for possession is up to 6g of cannabis. This is the equivalent of a summary level offense (magistrate court) and typically punished by a couple weeks of detention or a fine. The next step up is weight above 6g and less than 100g. This would be the equivalent of an either way offense (either in magistrate court or Crown court.) Above 100g of cannabis is a major offenses equivalent to an indictable only (Crown court) offenses. Fogels Amount HE CLAIMS is only 17g which is difficult to understand how that number is accurate. He had 14 vape cartridges those are either .5g or 1g each. He also had half an once of cannabis bud. Half an once is a little more than 14g, even if all the vape cartridges were of the .5g type thats 7g for the vape cartridges plus 14g for the bud makes 21g which is more than 3 times the administrative level offense. If the vape cartridges are the 1g variety than its 28g, more than 4 times the administrative level. Even if we set aside the cannabis bud and assume the vape cartridges are of the smaller .5g type thats still 7g, and 1g more than the administrative level offense. Under the best of circumstances if you believe what Fogel says and it was 17g, he still committed the more serious offense for which 14 years hard labor is within the scope of consequences for the offense. This assumes the criminal in this case is being truthful, it is not unheard of for criminals to engage in deception and subterfuge when it is in their interests to do so.
Whatever you think of Russia, there is no better rational for believing Fogel over the Russian authorities. We have a confessed criminal on one side and the assumption of a corrupt government on the other, why is the criminals claims more believable than the corrupt government? Government corruption is worse because westerners believe drug crimes shouldnt be crimes, thus Fogel should prevail because corruption (which is being assumed in this scenario) is the only real offense since the western mindset is that the drug offense shouldnt be an offense so it should be ignored. Why cant Russia have strict drug laws, even draconian drug laws, and why cant they have harsh, even brutal punishments for violating those laws. Youre a guest in their country follow their rules or dont enter their country. Fogel knew what he was doing was a crime and that it was a serious crime, he assumed hed get away with it, and he didnt.

I have no compassion for those who arrogantly and flagrantly disrespect the rules a society has chosen to live by. If you consider their penalties harsh, than either dont commit those offenses or dont enter their country. Nobody made Fogel bring the drugs into the country, nobody made him enter the country with those drugs. It was his choice and expression of free will to violate those rules and that violation has consequences.

Both Japan and Singapore have convictions rates around 99% is justice not being served in those regions as well?
Heliotrope
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Re: Reply

Post by Heliotrope »

They are accusing him of bringing in a "large amount", which Russian law defines as at least 100 grams, which is likely untrue.
My rational for believing Fogel over the Russian authorities is simply that the Russian authorities have been demonstrably and repeatedly lying about a variety of things, including in many high-profile criminal cases, whereas Fogel does not have that track record.
I do think possessing weed (medical or recreational) shouldn't be a crime, but since it is a crime in Russia my opinion on the matter is irrelevant. So as said I agree he broke the law and shouldn't be surprised he has to answer for it. However the severity of the punishment seems politically motivated, which is what I take issue with. Russia has a bad track record of politically motivated sentencing, and I'm suggesting the severity and timing of this sentence fits that pattern.
You disagree, and that's of course fine.
PsyGuy
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Post by PsyGuy »

@Heliotrope

Do you have any other data besides the word of a drug smuggler or the drug smugglers family it wasnt over 100g?

Lying about what? In both the Griner and the Whelan cases the reported amounts were accurate. Or when you state "demonstrably and repeatedly lying about a variety of things" do you mean Putin lying about the Ukraine invasion? When you state authorities do you mean the entirety of the Russian government in all matters of Putin in conjunction with the conflict in Ukraine? Can we not separate the political theater of armed conflict from the rest of a countries business. A country claiming Iraq has WMDs as a pretense and excuse for engaging in armed conflict should thus negate criminal penalties. Everyone should go free because the government lied about one thing so that means they are corrupt and lying about everything and a country cant enforce its criminal code?

We disagree.
Heliotrope
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Re: Reply

Post by Heliotrope »

PsyGuy wrote:
> Do you have any other data besides the word of a drug smuggler or the drug
> smugglers family it wasnt over 100g?

Do you have any other data besides the word of an autocratic and corrupt government that it was?
We disagree.


> Or when you state "demonstrably and repeatedly
> lying about a variety of things" do you mean Putin lying about the
> Ukraine invasion? When you state authorities do you mean the entirety of
> the Russian government in all matters of Putin in conjunction with the
> conflict in Ukraine? Can we not separate the political theater of armed
> conflict from the rest of a countries business.

I'm saying this is part of the war. A war is more than just tanks, grenades and guns. I very much doubt Marc Fogel would have received the same sentence before the war in Ukraine, and before the US started supplying Ukraine with arms.
That's not saying the Russian government hasn't been lying about a variety of other subjects before the war started.
If you're saying the Russian government doesn't regularly and purposefully lies for political gain, we disagree.


> We disagree.

I agree.
CeeCee1
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Re: International teacher Marc Fogel in Russian prison - please help!

Post by CeeCee1 »

@PsyGuy

https://www.amnesty.org/en/location/eur ... ederation/

Some light reading, if you so care.

BTW, just to balance it out, the Ukraine also has a pretty poor track record within it's prison system and many people were campaigning in the EU States to remove the European arrest warrant, due to this.

Yes, we can be naive or blasé about laws in our school's host country. We think it will never happen to us. This teacher needs our support right now. This case was a fine or a much lighter sentence. I agree with nothing you have spouted in this entire thread.
PsyGuy
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Post by PsyGuy »

@Heliotrope

No, but autocratic and corrupt would describe nearly every government in history. If the only governments that get to have laws and enforce them are one that are perfect its going to be a very short list.

You seem to think the war involves Fogel, that hes a pawn. Hes a criminal who knew what he was doing was a crime and choose, knowingly to commit his crime at a time under very unfavorable conditions in a country with very strict drug laws.

You dont have any data to support your doubts do you, this is just something @Heliotrope thinks, right?

Everyone lies governments included. Diogenes isnt knocking on any governments door to my knowledge.

We disagree.

@CeeCee1

Not really, I find AI to be a a liberal apology mill. If your government isnt as permissive as they think you should be your government is bad. Its always there definition of human rights they feel they get to impose on everyone because they think so.

But some lite reading for you in kind:
https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/ ... bin-lajim/
SG has the right idea.
https://www.cnb.gov.sg/
Its illegal for a PR/Citizen of SG to even use cannabis in a country where its legal. Punishable by up to 10y or an SGD$20K fine or both. You probably agree with AI that constitutes a human rights violation because theres some kind of human right to drug use.

Fogel wasnt naive. He knew what he was doing was criminal, that the amount he was bringing in was above the administrative penalty level, and he choose to smuggle it in, into a country with heavy criminal penalties during a time with very poor political relations. We have only his claims that it wasnt more. Theres nothing noble about his actions, hes not sorry, hes sorry he got caught.
The punishment was firmly within the range of sentences for his actions and crime. Had he less than 6g than yes it would have been a fine or short sentence but by his own admission he was in possession of nearly three times that amount.
He doesnt deserve anymore support than any other drug peddler. He suffers from "arrogant American syndrome", Americans do not get to bring America with them when they leave its borders, and now hes suffering the consequences of his actions.
Heliotrope
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Re: Reply

Post by Heliotrope »

As I said before I agree that he broke the law. My point is that it's not unlikely that he was punished more severely because of the war.

They are accusing him of bringing in a "large amount", which Russian law defines as at least 100 grams. He said he was carrying 17 grams. If that is correct the sentence he got was way too high.
Him being a criminal doesn't mean he's not also a pawn. You yourself mention that he did this "during a time with very poor political relations". For a just sentence the poor political relations shouldn't matter. Your comment show you realize the sentence might have been influenced by current events.

How much was he really carrying? I don't know for sure, you don't know for sure.
It simply depends on if you believe the Russian government or if you believe Marc Fogel. The track record of the Russian government makes me doubt their version of events at least.

You and I both don't have data to support our doubts.
These are indeed just things @Heliotrope and @PsyGuy are thinking.
PsyGuy
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Post by PsyGuy »

@Heliotrope

No its not. Actual data is superior to and supersedes potential data.

Actual Data:
- He was carrying at least 17g of cannabis
- Cannabis is an illegal substance for any reason in Russia
- The amount he was carrying was in excess of the administrative level offense (6g) and was a serious criminal act.
- 14 years is within the range of possible sentences for the amount of drugs he was smuggling into the country.

Potential Data:
- Your position that the quote of "large amount" is within the context of a legal definition as opposed to a laypersons definition which the quote may very well be.
- Even assuming it is the legal definition and means more than 100g thats what the Russian juridical system says. Your only support that its not is the word of a confessed drug smuggler.
- Your claim hes a pawn is entirely speculation. In both the Griner and the Whelan cases the reported amounts were accurate. Theres some conspiracy to stick it to Fogel as part of the political game for the Ukraine invasion but this conspiracy only extends to Fogel not the other offenders, for what reason and rational. What they want to play a political game using drug smugglers as paws but theyre lazy and only do lie about the amount with one of them instead of you know the more publicly and media worthy other smugglers.
- Your doubts about the integrity of the Russian authorities in this matter are no more than conjecture.

I absolutely have data.
The actual data shows that he was carrying at least 17g, this is a serious crime, and the sentence of 14 years is within the range for that level of offense. I know that. I believe the actual data, not the potential data. You seem to suggest that he should get a pass on his crime and get a ticket home because potentially there are some irregularities.

The political relations dont matter, its an observation. The political relations between the US and Russia are very poor. ::full stop:: Im not responsible for your interpretations.

This is really easy. If the sentence of 14 years is within the range available to the discretion of the Russian Court for possession of 17g of cannabis should he have to do the full sentence?
Heliotrope
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Re: Reply

Post by Heliotrope »

As said, the sentence he received was one that fits a quantity of 100 grams or more.

The Russian court released a statement saying that Fogel committed 'large-scale drugs smuggling' by crossing the Russian border, as well as 'large-scale illegal storage of drugs without a commercial purpose', meaning a quantity that Russian law defines to be 100 grams or more. Anything between 6-100 grams is classified as a 'significant amount', the possession of which carries a much shorter jail sentence and, in some cases, the punishment is reduced to a fine.
This sentence is grossly disproportionate to sentences imposed by Russian courts in similar cases involving similar amounts of marijuana and even exceeds sentences imposed by Russian courts on major drug traffickers and murderers, according to attorneys familiar with the Russian legal system.

I say the Russian government lies about the quantity, you say Marc Fogel lies about the quantity.
Neither of us can be sure, we're just guessing.
PsyGuy
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Post by PsyGuy »

@Heliotrope

According to article 228 of the Russian Criminal code.
http://www.russian-criminal-code.com/Pa ... ter25.html
Part 4 "...or with regard to large amounts of narcotic drugs or psychotropic substances, shall be punishable by deprivation of liberty for a term of seven to fifteen years...."

He got 14 years, a year less than the maximum.
There is no indication of any other category of scale other than "large scale" and "large amount". There is nothing in Article 228 or any other article under chapter 25 (Crimes Against Human Health and Public Morality) indicating a separate level of offense for 100g or more, theres only large and not large. Your definition is neither found nor supported in the data.
By his own admission he was in possession of at LEAST 17g of an illegal drug, almost three times the administrative offense. The Russian court thinks that was a large amount and it was over 6g and Fogel knew what he was doing and that his amount was grossly over the administrative level. Which again, we have ONLY the word of a drug smuggler it wasnt more and didnt exceed this 100g limit, that is absent from the data.
The Russian judiciary hasnt misrepresented the amounts in the Griner and Whelan cases, wheres the pattern of misrepresenting amounts by the Russian authorities to support your claim that they are in the Fogel case?
There isnt its just @Heliotrope thinking some arrogant Americans who think laws dont apply to them and Putin started a war of aggression that everyone gets a pass.
Heliotrope
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Re: Reply

Post by Heliotrope »

If he indeed carried more than 100 grams, you would be right.
As you say, "there's only large and not large" (although not entirely true: there's 'a small amount' which is up to 6 grams, anything between 6-100 grams is classified as a 'significant amount', and then there's a 'large amount' for 100 grams or more), so the fact that 'large amount' is not specified in this article simply means that that's codified elsewhere.
If legal experts in articles commenting on this case for the BBC and other outlets say that Russia's threshold for 'large quantity' is 100 grams, I'll take their word for it, rather than yours. And as said, this sentence is grossly disproportionate to sentences imposed by Russian courts in similar cases involving similar amounts of marijuana and even exceeds sentences imposed by Russian courts on major drug traffickers and murderers, according to attorneys familiar with the Russian legal system.

So again: Fogel says it was 17 grams, Russia says it was more.
You're of course welcome to believe who you want. It's not that I automatically believe Fogel, but You need only to read the news to take what Russia says with a grain of salt.
PsyGuy
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Post by PsyGuy »

@Heliotrope

No there isnt the not large amount is the small amount. Theres 6g and under and everything over that. Theres no classification of "significant amount" in article 228. Its not there because it doesnt exist.

Ill take the data in the actual wording of the regulation of that of @Heliotrope.

As stated, the sentence of 14 years is within range of allowable sentencing as defined by the regulation.
Heliotrope
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Re: Reply

Post by Heliotrope »

PsyGuy wrote:
> @Heliotrope
>
> No there isnt the not large amount is the small amount. Theres 6g and under
> and everything over that. Theres no classification of "significant
> amount" in article 228. Its not there because it doesnt exist.
>
> Ill take the data in the actual wording of the regulation of that of
> @Heliotrope.
>
> As stated, the sentence of 14 years is within range of allowable sentencing
> as defined by the regulation.


I trust legal experts familiar with Russian law who have looked at similar cases, rather than take your word that it doesn't exist.

We disagree.
PsyGuy
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Post by PsyGuy »

@Heliotrope

Ill believe the data in the actual wording of the regulation over that of @Heliotrope.

We disagree.
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