Interviewing the Interviewers

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hitesteacher
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Joined: Fri Apr 08, 2016 9:02 am

Interviewing the Interviewers

Post by hitesteacher »

Just a thought in response to posts here and there looking for information and guidance in making potentially life changing decisions.

As most do, I assume, I find myself compiling a list of questions in preparation for job interviews to not only try to find out as much as possible about the school, staff, students, parents, community etc. but also admittedly to try to impress perspective employers with my professionalism and enthusiasm.

As much as these questions may be specific to a certain school/location, many of them seem rather universal. On the other hand, there have been many questions I have never thought to ask, and many questions I could not believe I should have asked.

My point?

It might serve our purposes if we could collectively compile a list of relevant questions ( regionally specific if desired ) that teachers can ask recruiters/perspective employers to help them get a heads up on a job offer and in particular, a feel for other job satisfaction determining criteria not specifically outlined in the job description.

Even further, to turn things on their heads, to come up with a "form" of sorts that teachers can provide to interested/interesting employers along with their CV/resumes/references which the employers themselves "are requested" to fill out, not only for simplification and clarification, but also frankly to have things put on record, particularly if they are not specified in a contract. How much would this be worth? More than nothing I think.

This might be threatening for an employer to face, and perhaps seen as a little arrogant on the part of the teacher but in some circumstances may be that would be a good thing. Teachers could decide to use it (in one form or another) as they see fit.

Thoughts/feelings ?
adminpaul
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Joined: Thu Aug 10, 2006 8:11 pm

Re: Interviewing the Interviewers

Post by adminpaul »

You might take a look at the Bill of Rights for International Educators. Click the Articles & Information link (above in the yellow nav bar). You'll see the clickable icon for the International Teachers Bill of Rights.
PsyGuy
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Location: Northern Europe

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Post by PsyGuy »

There already is a sort of list of questions IT candidates ask, its why recruiters and leadership often seem to have a response ready or are able to recite one without much thinking. Ask a recruiter what medals they think the country could come home with and you will get a moment of silence and some blinking, ask them what the hardest part of adapting to the country and there is an answer ready, and it will be some trivial cultural adaptation.

How would it work? If you sent a recruiter a survey, they would get a laugh, most likely think you were arrogant and move on to the next candidate. Leadership and recruiters arent going to spend their time filling out surveys for candidates, they use surveys and long applications to reduce the application pile, its not going to work the other way around. If an IS wants to publish that kind of information they can or already do in their employment online FAQ. Recruiters and ISs have the power not the ITs.
The only way I see it feasibly working is if the survey/questions were part of a recruiting agency, if they were part of an ISs school profile for example. What value would they be? The IS would assign someone to complete the questions with generic warm fuzzy feel good answers and then they would never get updated. Its hard enough to get current salary range and savings potential, what would a handful of rarely updated canned Q&A really be worth (answer: about the same as the advertising and marketing of their web page). Even a recruiter/leadership that would be a little more candid with you during an interview, isnt going to publish their problems and dirty laundry.

Assuming there was such a list it would just get practiced by recruiters. Like ITs they would learn the questions, and form acceptable rehearsed responses, just as when ITs are asked to identify a strength and a weakness, or a a current challenge or goal in their professional growth, candidate ITs have learned to turn that weakness into a strength during the interview. You cant say you have no weaknesses, and you cant say you drink a lot and youre okay with that. In the same style recruiters will quickly generate a generic response to those types of questions, and they already do.
hitesteacher
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Joined: Fri Apr 08, 2016 9:02 am

Re: Interviewing the Interviewers

Post by hitesteacher »

Thanks admin and PsyGuy for your comments/responses.

I perhaps have a fortunate situation since I teach upper math,physics and chemistry so I assume I usually have my CV thrown into a smaller pile. So far I have been pretty good at getting fairly accurate answers to most of the questions I have thought to ask. It is the questions I had not thought to ask that have sometimes led to "surprises". This list is growing increasingly shorter, thank goodness, and I really don't mind if a school/recruiter feels interviewed as much as I do. If they are indignant to begin with they will have little incentive to change once you are signed.

Correct PsyGuy, it is always difficult to weed the embellishments and euphemisms out of the garden of flowers painted by many schools and recruiters. I have never attended a recruiting fair but I can guess there are a lot of plastic smiles and sweaty handshakes. Asking to speak to a teacher currently on staff may only get you the director's right hand man and often outgoing teachers are nervous about references, benefits owed or gag clauses in their contracts.

My particular circumstances may leave me a little naive over the imbalances that exist between some employers and some teachers. I will check out the Bill of Rights and see how that pertains. Thanks again for the responses.

Cheers.
PsyGuy
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Location: Northern Europe

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Post by PsyGuy »

@hitesteacher

There are a lot of plastic smiles, but honestly they are on both sides of the table. Fairs are like dating, everyones trying to make their best impression, not honest impression. You wont find a recruiter that says their IS is average or even mediocre, and you wont find ITs who say they want to do the minimum and get top coin for it either. Fairs are like auditions (cattle calls) on the casting couch. Everyones trying to oversell, ITs want to rep theyre closer to A list than D list (one of the superstar ITs) and recruiters are trying to peddle what they have like their ISs are the next series of mega busters that makes your career. There is plenty of ego and marketing on both sides.

A recruiter will put you in contact with a cheerleader IT who will give you the the same pitch and lip service as leadership. Cheerleaders are mouth pieces, dressed down to appear more credible.

References are everything, they are the gag clause. References can change anytime. Say something negative about leadership or an IS and what was a positive reference today can be a negative one tomorrow.

Benefits are hard to retract later, coin in hand is pretty safe from the reach of an IS.

NDAs and Gag clauses are extremely difficult if not impossible to enforce legally.

While the Bill of Rights for International Educators is a great concept and ideal, there is no one to enforce it. Its not like an air travel bill of rights that some civil aviation authority or department of transportation or some other regulatory body has jurisdiction over.
Nomads
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Re: Interviewing the Interviewers

Post by Nomads »

Hitesteacher,

As a recruiter, I would not complete your form before we interview simply due to time constraints at a fair. After the interview, if I thought there might be a fit, I would make sure we had time to go through all of your questions in person. If I offered you a contract, I would be happy to put it in writing if you felt it was necessary. While not as formal as you detailed, I have had a number of candidates request similar information, which I am happy to share. My resume is on Linked in and I give them the names of other admin or teachers at the fair who know me. Teachers need to feel comfortable where they are going.

For administrators, the goal is to hire and retain high quality teachers. If I am not honest or forthcoming with you during the recruiting process, then you will leave after two years, which is not good for the school.

I would encourage teachers to develop a list of questions to ask the recruiters as well as others in the organization.
Thames Pirate
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Re: Interviewing the Interviewers

Post by Thames Pirate »

The questions I have are often around the following:

--Expected scheduling and workload (no fun to be hired for DP Lit and then find out you are teaching 6th Lang Arts or told most teachers have 3 preps and then get five). This would include questions about extracurriculars, etc. I don't expect a recruiter to promise anything, but I do ask what is typical and how likely it is that there will be a lot of surprises. It isn't that I can't teach grade 6, but more about what I am gearing up to do, the respect my resume gets, and whether or not I will be doing what I want or what I do best long-term.

--HR support. Does the school have a vehicle available for furniture shopping? Is there someone who can help me navigate local taxes? Can you hook me up with departing teachers who might want to pass on their flat, furniture, or advice? Our first international gig, the HR department was an hour late picking us up from the airport. We were left standing there with all our luggage, an almost empty terminal, and no idea whom to call because nobody had told us who was picking us up. I wouldn't wish that on anyone.

--Culture of the school. Is there a weekly Friday group for drinks? Do most staff move around a lot? Is there one big expat community, or are most people somewhat solo? What about in regards to teaching and PD (not so much what PD does the school offer, but more about how school wide PD is actually implemented, for example). I am less interested in if you have a 1:1 device program, and more interested in how the tech is used to foster learning.

--Any questions that might arise about living in that country. This could include cost of living or housing norms, cultural questions, weather, etc. Just give me an idea of how most teachers live in your country and which types of people are most comfortable there (do singles move on and families leave or vice versa? Is there something for everyone? Young vs. older, indoor vs. outdoor, and so on). Can I pursue my hobbies there?

--Anything related to programs or mission statement that stands out. I don't memorize mission statements or anything, but if your website indicates your strength is in X but your mission statement says you value Y, I am curious. If you have a particular program that might be interesting, I might ask about that. If your website is pretty standard, I might ask which programs you feel are your school's strongest--do you have an outstanding drama department? Is this a school where I would want to start a chess club? Is there a difference between IS [this city] and IS [other cities in the region]?

None of these fit on a form, but I would want some information on each of these topics. I would, obviously, do my research where applicable and adapt questions based on the school's presentation, website, brochures, and the conversations so far.
scribe
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Joined: Sun Feb 11, 2007 2:18 am

Re: Interviewing the Interviewers

Post by scribe »

It's interesting to ask about the reasons the departing teachers gave for leaving, and the rate of attrition.
What is the interviewer's favorite thing about living in the country and least favorite?
What do they know now that they wish they had known prior to their arrival in the country?
What initiatives are the school pursuing and what are they considering adding?
How would the students at the school describe the education they are receiving and the teachers they have?
What does the school do to promote happiness among the students and the staff?
If I were to walk around your school right now, what would I find in terms of style of teaching going on? What does the collaboration between teachers look like - planned? haphazard? enthusiastic? begrudging?
PsyGuy
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Location: Northern Europe

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Post by PsyGuy »

@Hitesteacher

@Nomads statements are bunk. Lets parse that post. Not completing your form before an interview is just "no", the reason doesnt matter, time constraints is just leadership code for having better things to do.

Recruiters are always trying to get credit for things they are supposed to do. Of course they are going to answer your questions if they are interested in making you an offer after the interview. If they didnt how would that conversation go:
Recruiter: Well you sound like a great fit and welcome addition to our school?
IT: I have a few questions before we discuss contract specifics.
Recruiter: [Laughing] Sorry we dont do questions, you have to take the offer on faith.
Youd smile, thank them for their time then stand up and slowly step back towards the door.

Of course having your questions and clarifications in writing is necessary, having something, anything, everything in writing is always better than verbal, when would it not be necessary, when theres a hand shake involved or they say "trust me".

Who puts negatives in their linked in profile or resume? The problem is for all the good leadership the sociopaths are really good at pretending to be strong leadership types, you think they would put in their linked in profile "Im a sociopath and I will place my foot on your throat over every single thing that is not in the contract". The same goes for those "other leadership and ITs, they are only going to refer you to their rat pack of other admins,. you think they will say of and check with the HOS at Acme AS, we hate each other, or the ITs that dont have only nice things to say, who are most likely cheerleaders.

Yes they need to feel comfortable but false comfort feels the same as true comfort until the poo hits the fan.

The last statement is so laughable, there are many, a majority of ISs that are 2 year revolving doors, they know it, and they have no intention of doing otherwise or changing.

@Thames Pirate

We have similar lists at least on some things.

Absolutely agree on contract and instructional hours as well as preps. Not just how many periods your scheduled in classes and preps but what are your contractual hours you have to be on the IS premises. I ask this in email so its in writing, but your contract should indicate how many instructional and contact hours you have.

I only ask about ASPs if a particular ASP is part of the appointment such as a SS/humanities IT and MUN, or a PHE IT and coaching.

I could care less about furniture and a vehicle, but its not an important issue for me. I do like to talk to HR directly and ask some questions to see how prepared they are with possible solutions. I get worried when HR sounds like a record with repetitive statements like "Dont worry its fine".

Local taxes arent much of an issue for me assuming the IS isnt trying to make a kickback through taxes, and in that regard ID rather research the tax situation and see if the numbers and their explanations are congruent.

Id be hesitant asking leadership about the social scene, I would hope they werent the go to person on what to do and where. Personally I dont want to socialize to much with other ITs from my IS, the old adage about eating where you poop.

Most leadership glosses over PD, Im surprised every year how many ITs dont use their PD allowance, either its not enough to do anything worth doing, or leadership decides what everyone is going to do and thats it.

Not likely to get an honest answer about life in the city if its problematic they demphasis the negatives and focus on the positives. Most leadership cant say anything about cost of living. Ive had recruiters brag about how much a bag of vegetables cost but everything else is imported and expensive.

@scribe

Not that thee is anything wrong with your questions, but the content of them is going to be pretty generic and canned responses.
Thames Pirate
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Re: Interviewing the Interviewers

Post by Thames Pirate »

Well, I don't poop on my coworkers, so . . . . ;) At a lot of schools, the expat community is small, and teachers become close. At others, teachers rarely see one another. Asking gives you an idea of that. Obviously once there you can make your own decisions, though I personally enjoy hanging out with other ITs (shared experience, similar motivations and outlooks on life).

Those are just some of the things we may or may not ask about. Obviously each person will have his or her own list, but those are some of the things on mine offhand (I would ask about extracurriculars if it is a specific interest of mine, not just "hey, how's your cooking club?"). You are right that the answers should be taken with a grain of salt in that the situation is often presented as rosier than it is, but asking and then doing some reading between the lines can get you a better picture of life in a city or at that school. I would also agree with the "do your own research" on taxes, but asking during an interview might at least let you know what you need to ask and could paint a better picture of the financial situation they are offering.

We were told (and our own prior research had told us) that our school had an "old guard" of stuffy folks who phoned it in, but that they were trying to change the culture of the school and had hired (and were continuing to hire) new, enthusiastic, and personable teachers who were into teaching, not just book work. We were told straight up that this new direction for the school was creating friction, and that there would be a dividing line in the staff of old vs. new. The director was very open about this dynamic. It was one we had suspected based on our research of the school, and to hear it verbalized was validating of our research. My point, though, is that the director was very aware of the implications of this dynamic as well as his vision for the school. He wanted people who could work through that and help move the school forward. So he put it out there openly in the interview. So asking cannot hurt.
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