International teacher Marc Fogel in Russian prison - please help!

Heliotrope
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Re: International teacher Marc Fogel in Russian prison - please help!

Post by Heliotrope »

Who would have expected we'd end up disagreeing?
PsyGuy
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Post by PsyGuy »

Who wouldnt have expected we'd end up disagreeing?
Heliotrope
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Post by Heliotrope »

PsyGuy wrote:
> Who wouldnt have expected we'd end up disagreeing?

Indeed.
CeeCee1
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Re: International teacher Marc Fogel in Russian prison - please help!

Post by CeeCee1 »

@PsyGuy
Regardless of the fact that this man clearly committed a crime and needed to be prosecuted. Regardless of whether you think the prison term was trumped up due to politics or not, Russia has an appalling record of torture and human rights abuses in it's prison system. You hate Amnesty, well check out ECHR. They are number two in the list of cases placed against them. This is enough to need Fogel out of prison. Human rights exist for all.
PsyGuy
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Post by PsyGuy »

@CeeCee1

No, Russia has a praiseworthy record of making punishment something akin to being sent to a gulag in Siberia, because its Russia, so gulags and Siberia are kind of their thing, and thats good. If your system of justice tortures and abuses human beings and yet laws are still being broken youre doing something wrong with your torture and abuse.
AND Fogel knew this. He knew what he was doing, how much he was bringing in and what the laws were, he knew where he was doing it, what the penalty was, where he would be serving out his sentence, and what the political environment was. He knew everything that is happening to him and he did it anyway, BECAUSE he was an arrogant American who led a grace filled life and he just thought he would get away with it.
CeeCee1
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Re: International teacher Marc Fogel in Russian prison - please help!

Post by CeeCee1 »

@PsyGuy
"The Convention for the Protection of Human Rights and Fundamental Freedoms, better known as the European Convention on Human Rights, was opened for signature in Rome on 4 November 1950 and came into force on 3 September 1953. It was the first instrument to give effect to certain of the rights stated in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights and make them binding."

Russia has been ratified since 1998 which ends this week, 16 September 2022. This would mean that when Fogel moved to Moscow and committed his crime he may have thought he would be treated with some respect for his human rights, or at least have some redress if not the case. He is in scary territory.

As for the rest of the nonsense you write, it's not even worth a response.
PsyGuy
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Post by PsyGuy »

@CeeCee1

Thats just paper and ink. Russia is a nuclear super power, a permenant member of the UN security council. Russia can not be dictated to. You cant wave a piece of a paper at them and make them do anything.

How do you know or why do you think Fogel is suffering human rights abuses? He's being incarcerated in the same prisons other Russian citizens are being housed. Russia isnt. He's fed, hes clothed, he has access to medical care. This is Russian prison not some Danish or Flemish "campus" for involuntary sequester.
CeeCee1
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Re: International teacher Marc Fogel in Russian prison - please help!

Post by CeeCee1 »

@PsyGuy

We don't know if he is suffering inhumane conditions, but the fact there are cases of torture against foreign prisoners normally will block extradition requests etc.

I really think you should move to Russia. Sounds like you really love and support their regime.
PsyGuy
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Post by PsyGuy »

@CeeCee1

So you dont even know if hes being treated inhumanly and his human rights are violated, but he should still get a pass on his crimes.

Lived there, and I do support the people of Russia, lovely people.
Heliotrope
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Post by Heliotrope »

PsyGuy wrote:
> @CeeCee1
>
> So you dont even know if hes being treated inhumanly and his human rights
> are violated, but he should still get a pass on his crimes.
>
> Lived there, and I do support the people of Russia, lovely people.


Nobody is saying anything bad about the people of Russia, we're talking about the regime.
In any country, no matter how corrupt and fascist the regime is, the actual people there will be lovely.

Both @CeeCee1 and I have clearly stated that he did commit a crime and should be punished, so I'm not sure where this whole "should get a pass on his crime" is coming from. We're saying this particular sentence doesn't fit the actual crime, echoing legal experts familiar with the Russian justice system who did more than a simple Google search.
Also, with so much documented proof of systematic and widespread human rights abuses in Russian prisons against both foreigners and Russian citizens, it's not unreasonably to expect Fogel will suffer these as well.
PsyGuy
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Post by PsyGuy »

@Heliotrope

Thats not true, sometimes a bad regime also has bad people.

Thats not true either, @CeeCee1 thinks Fogel should get to return home before finishing his sentence. That he should be part of a prisoner exchange or have his sentence commuted.
The sentence does fit the crime. His crime called for a sentence of up to 15 years he got 14 years which is below the maximum for his offense.
So again, you dont know Fogel has suffered actual human rights abuses. Potential abuse does not warrant actual release from Fogels accountability for his crime. Fogel may have a defensible position when he actually suffers human rights abuses that are unaligned with general prisoner treatment in Russia, but until then hes a convicted drug smuggler whos whining about his punishment.
Heliotrope
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Post by Heliotrope »

PsyGuy wrote:
> @Heliotrope
>
> Thats not true, sometimes a bad regime also has bad people.

I've visited many countries with terrible regimes, but in 100% of them the overwhelming majority of the locals were decent people, like in every country.


> Thats not true either, @CeeCee1 thinks Fogel should get to return home
> before finishing his sentence. That he should be part of a prisoner
> exchange or have his sentence commuted.
> The sentence does fit the crime. His crime called for a sentence of up to
> 15 years he got 14 years which is below the maximum for his offense.
> So again, you dont know Fogel has suffered actual human rights abuses.
> Potential abuse does not warrant actual release from Fogels accountability
> for his crime. Fogel may have a defensible position when he actually
> suffers human rights abuses that are unaligned with general prisoner
> treatment in Russia, but until then hes a convicted drug smuggler whos
> whining about his punishment.

Nope, he should return home after he finishes a fair term, meaning the same sentence that other people who committed a similar offense have received in the past, so NOT 14 years of hard labor. I'll still take the word of experts over your Google result.

As said, we disagree.
PsyGuy
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Post by PsyGuy »

@Heliotrope

Ive visited many countries, some with terrible governments who had lovely people and some with horrible people. Ive visited countries with nice governments and horrible people.
We disagree.

No, his sentence was fair. It called for up to 15 years he got 14 years well within the boundaries of fair. Its not like he got 20 years when the max was 15, that would be unfair. Fogels sentence is within the range the court is entitled to exercise its discretion over.
I will take the position of experts over your Goggle search reporters and the word of a drug smuggler.
We disagree.
milesaway
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Re: International teacher Marc Fogel in Russian prison - please help!

Post by milesaway »

@PsyGuy
@Heliotrope

The energy you two waste on your pissing contests is amazing...I only wish I knew what schools the two of you worked at so I could make to avoid them. When you see yourselves in the mirror do you stop and kiss the mirror?
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