As I look to what school I want to work at next, now that I have a three-year-old and a one-year-old, my number one priority is getting them in a high quality school themselves. So much so, I will even be willing to pay tuition out of pocket, since my husband makes enough money to allow us to pay. So, the goal is for me to work in the same school as my sons attend. Of course, ultimately a full fee waiver for both would be lovely, but that's not my priority. So, my question is as follows:
While we are 100% willing and able to pay for a great educational environment for our child now (and children in a few years when the second one is ready to attend - he stays home with dad for now), are there some international schools where the actual "retail price" of attending is far below average but the quality of the school is at the very top? For instance, there are some international schools where tuition is now over 30K, but depending on the region, there are similarly strong if not stronger schools where the tuition tops out in IBDP years in the low 20K range.
From your experience, what are the best schools in each region (Asia, Europe, ME, Africa, Latin America) with the lowest cost of attendance (in US dollars since that's what my husband is paid in) but the best overall educational quality? Thanks!
Tuition Paid Out of Pocket
Response
So you dont even have a region but you want a global list of what must be every parents unicorn, which would be elite tier ISs at third tier coin for tuition/fees? If so than can I interest you in a lovely piece of land thats full of four leaf clovers and includes a pot of gold, thats just over the end of the rainbow.
I suppose what you are really asking for is any regulated (public/maintained) DSs/ISs that are upper tier. As the things that make an IS upper tier cost coin and that coin has got to come from somewhere. If parents/sponsors aren't paying it than its got to come from a business (a company that sponsors the IS or a charitable organization, etc.) or funding comes from the government. Since youre not really in the position of being employees on a corporate expat package for some fortune X00 company and youre not in some form of needs based scenario where you would be looking at what would essentially be a scholarship to an IS. This leaves you with government/public funded DSs/ISs that have a strong reputation for really academic performance and success.
So either look at future positions in Finland or Singapore. Where even absent a tuition/fee waiver/place the regional regulated (maintained/public) DSs are very high quality and English as a language of instruction is available, though youre children will likely learn Finnish (or Swedish) in Finland. As government supported DSs you either wont have to pay tuition/fees or the fees are marginal or trivial.
I suppose what you are really asking for is any regulated (public/maintained) DSs/ISs that are upper tier. As the things that make an IS upper tier cost coin and that coin has got to come from somewhere. If parents/sponsors aren't paying it than its got to come from a business (a company that sponsors the IS or a charitable organization, etc.) or funding comes from the government. Since youre not really in the position of being employees on a corporate expat package for some fortune X00 company and youre not in some form of needs based scenario where you would be looking at what would essentially be a scholarship to an IS. This leaves you with government/public funded DSs/ISs that have a strong reputation for really academic performance and success.
So either look at future positions in Finland or Singapore. Where even absent a tuition/fee waiver/place the regional regulated (maintained/public) DSs are very high quality and English as a language of instruction is available, though youre children will likely learn Finnish (or Swedish) in Finland. As government supported DSs you either wont have to pay tuition/fees or the fees are marginal or trivial.
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Heliotrope
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Re: Tuition Paid Out of Pocket
There are still a good number of tier 1 schools that will offer free tuition for both kids, and they tend to be high quality schools.
However, if they only pay for one spot and the tuition is high, chances are good that your salary will be high as well. The schools with low tuitions will pay their teachers less as well. Not sure of the difference in pay will completely make up for the difference in tuition in some schools, but as @PsyGuy said, the coin has got to come from somewhere, and higher tuition will pay for higher teacher salaries (and a whole bunch of other stuff).
However, if they only pay for one spot and the tuition is high, chances are good that your salary will be high as well. The schools with low tuitions will pay their teachers less as well. Not sure of the difference in pay will completely make up for the difference in tuition in some schools, but as @PsyGuy said, the coin has got to come from somewhere, and higher tuition will pay for higher teacher salaries (and a whole bunch of other stuff).
Discussion
Since the LW already stated they would ultimately pursue a full tuition/fee waiver/place I didnt discuss that as an option though it certainly is.
The list of elite or even first tier ISs that would offer two tuition/fee waiver/places for one IT (employee) is not nearly so extensive as @Heliotrope eludes to. Certainly not in elite tier ISs which while not always the best edu often have the most prestigious reputation at least in IE circles. These ISs can get a 1000 applicants for one vacancy. Such an IS is often at capacity. An IT that insisted on two tuition/fee waivers/places to fill one classroom is very likely to find the IS just moving on the next candidate, because they can.
I also disagree with @Heliotrope that the higher salaries at higher tier ISs would keep pace with the cost of tuition/fees. Usually the difference between first and elite tier is roughly around 20% between tiers(China being an abnormality), whereas tuition/fees are roughly around a 50% difference between tiers. Its very probably though that in any particular case your salary would cover a second place/seat with some not insignificant portion left over (which may further be reduced from taxes, and in some cases you might be working and actually owe instead of collecting a salary). It has to, because increases in tuition/fees has to pay salaries but all the other costs as well.
The list of elite or even first tier ISs that would offer two tuition/fee waiver/places for one IT (employee) is not nearly so extensive as @Heliotrope eludes to. Certainly not in elite tier ISs which while not always the best edu often have the most prestigious reputation at least in IE circles. These ISs can get a 1000 applicants for one vacancy. Such an IS is often at capacity. An IT that insisted on two tuition/fee waivers/places to fill one classroom is very likely to find the IS just moving on the next candidate, because they can.
I also disagree with @Heliotrope that the higher salaries at higher tier ISs would keep pace with the cost of tuition/fees. Usually the difference between first and elite tier is roughly around 20% between tiers(China being an abnormality), whereas tuition/fees are roughly around a 50% difference between tiers. Its very probably though that in any particular case your salary would cover a second place/seat with some not insignificant portion left over (which may further be reduced from taxes, and in some cases you might be working and actually owe instead of collecting a salary). It has to, because increases in tuition/fees has to pay salaries but all the other costs as well.
Re: Tuition Paid Out of Pocket
IS Luxembourg as it's part financed by their govt.
ESF schools in Hong Kong, as they are also part financed by the HK government.
Failing that, how about a German or French school, as they are also usually significantly cheaper and provide a good education - if not all the extras.
ESF schools in Hong Kong, as they are also part financed by the HK government.
Failing that, how about a German or French school, as they are also usually significantly cheaper and provide a good education - if not all the extras.
Discussion
ISL does benefit from a government subsidy which makes their tuition/fees about a third less than comparable tuition/fees than say Brussels its less of a benefit (though still a benefit) among other EU ISs. The subsidy applies to all Luxembourg private/independent ISs.
ESF only benefits from the government subsidy in grades 8-13 as of now. The HK government is phasing it out when it will be gone by 2030, probably to late to benefit the LWs children.
ESF only benefits from the government subsidy in grades 8-13 as of now. The HK government is phasing it out when it will be gone by 2030, probably to late to benefit the LWs children.
Re: Tuition Paid Out of Pocket
It seems a pretty amorphous question.
I wonder if the OP is intending to be a recruited-hire teacher, as in, taking the lead in recruiting for a new position and her husband follows along wherever she gets the right post? Because that's typically the best way to get tuition paid by the school. But it's not usual for situation like the OP describes, where the non-teaching spouse is the higher earner. Usually the higher earner takes the lead and the teaching spouse follows along. Unless the OP's husband works from anywhere?
I wonder if the OP is intending to be a recruited-hire teacher, as in, taking the lead in recruiting for a new position and her husband follows along wherever she gets the right post? Because that's typically the best way to get tuition paid by the school. But it's not usual for situation like the OP describes, where the non-teaching spouse is the higher earner. Usually the higher earner takes the lead and the teaching spouse follows along. Unless the OP's husband works from anywhere?
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freetofly2022
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Re: Tuition Paid Out of Pocket
AUS in Kuwait will pay for three children. At least that is what it was a few years ago. Most schools will at least provide 50% for the second child. Jump on Search Associates and it will tell you specifically. This would negate really asking anyone on here although helpful, you'd be best served checking it out there and then asking specifically seeking out information about the actual school and how it rates. So yeah, sign up for Search Associates.
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Heliotrope
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Re: Tuition Paid Out of Pocket
Heliotrope wrote:
> There are still a good number of tier 1 schools that will offer free
> tuition for both kids, and they tend to be high quality schools.
I had a look at the school profiles of the tier 1 and upper tier 2 schools on Search, and 83% states that they will accept two children for a couple only one of whom teaches, which is more than I expected.
The percentage of tier 1 schools that will accept two children was only slightly higher than the upper tier 2 schools btw.
Sadly that doesn't mean they won't prefer a single teacher without kids if it's between you and them and the school likes you both equally though, but plenty of these upper tier schools will hire you if they like you better, although that will sometimes depend on how many other teachers with more than one dependant they already hired that cycle.
Still, with 83% of schools willing to give a teacher with a trailing spouse two spots for their kids if the teacher is a good fit, I would definitely try and find a school that does.
> There are still a good number of tier 1 schools that will offer free
> tuition for both kids, and they tend to be high quality schools.
I had a look at the school profiles of the tier 1 and upper tier 2 schools on Search, and 83% states that they will accept two children for a couple only one of whom teaches, which is more than I expected.
The percentage of tier 1 schools that will accept two children was only slightly higher than the upper tier 2 schools btw.
Sadly that doesn't mean they won't prefer a single teacher without kids if it's between you and them and the school likes you both equally though, but plenty of these upper tier schools will hire you if they like you better, although that will sometimes depend on how many other teachers with more than one dependant they already hired that cycle.
Still, with 83% of schools willing to give a teacher with a trailing spouse two spots for their kids if the teacher is a good fit, I would definitely try and find a school that does.
Discussion
@Sid
My interpretation was that the trailing spouse had a remote/freelance/consultant type of career where their office is anywhere they can plug in a laptop and have strong WiFi.
@freetofly2022
Yeah, but you have to work and live in Kuwait.
None of that data on SA though is validated, its all self report. Sure there are ISs who are transparent but theres a greater pool of ISs that want to present as positive and beneficial image as they can. Its not until later they drop the current comp package and it doesnt include waivers for more than one child. Most of the SA IS profiles are little more than marketing and sales. Thats assuming the IS has actually updated their IS profile in this decade.
@Heliotrope
Those profiles are all unvalidated, self reports. There isnt even an indication that they are really current. Just because theres some scenario where an IS would provide more waivers/places doesnt mean that for any particular IT thats a guarantee part of the offer.
My interpretation was that the trailing spouse had a remote/freelance/consultant type of career where their office is anywhere they can plug in a laptop and have strong WiFi.
@freetofly2022
Yeah, but you have to work and live in Kuwait.
None of that data on SA though is validated, its all self report. Sure there are ISs who are transparent but theres a greater pool of ISs that want to present as positive and beneficial image as they can. Its not until later they drop the current comp package and it doesnt include waivers for more than one child. Most of the SA IS profiles are little more than marketing and sales. Thats assuming the IS has actually updated their IS profile in this decade.
@Heliotrope
Those profiles are all unvalidated, self reports. There isnt even an indication that they are really current. Just because theres some scenario where an IS would provide more waivers/places doesnt mean that for any particular IT thats a guarantee part of the offer.
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Heliotrope
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Re: Discussion
PsyGuy wrote:
> @Heliotrope
>
> Those profiles are all unvalidated, self reports. There isnt even an
> indication that they are really current. Just because theres some scenario
> where an IS would provide more waivers/places doesnt mean that for any
> particular IT thats a guarantee part of the offer.
I've worked at a number of tier 1s and upper tier 2s, and those all self-reported this correctly, as well as the eleven tier 1s I know where former colleagues of mine with two kids and trailing spouses work that also seem to have reported this correctly.
One of the schools that self-reported that they would give a teacher with a non-working spouse one free spot actually gave my friend two, but he teaches mathematics & computer science so that might be why.
Where the self-reported numbers are most often off is usually the savings potential (hard to get an average number for this I guess), the number of international students (often counting host country students with a second passport as 'international'), and sometimes salary (for example because some schools include bonuses while others do not) although I've also seem salaries being reported as lower than they really are.
But as I said before: the fact that a school is willing to give two spots doesn't mean they won't prefer to hire a teacher without dependents if they deem them equally suitable (or almost as suitable) for the position.
> @Heliotrope
>
> Those profiles are all unvalidated, self reports. There isnt even an
> indication that they are really current. Just because theres some scenario
> where an IS would provide more waivers/places doesnt mean that for any
> particular IT thats a guarantee part of the offer.
I've worked at a number of tier 1s and upper tier 2s, and those all self-reported this correctly, as well as the eleven tier 1s I know where former colleagues of mine with two kids and trailing spouses work that also seem to have reported this correctly.
One of the schools that self-reported that they would give a teacher with a non-working spouse one free spot actually gave my friend two, but he teaches mathematics & computer science so that might be why.
Where the self-reported numbers are most often off is usually the savings potential (hard to get an average number for this I guess), the number of international students (often counting host country students with a second passport as 'international'), and sometimes salary (for example because some schools include bonuses while others do not) although I've also seem salaries being reported as lower than they really are.
But as I said before: the fact that a school is willing to give two spots doesn't mean they won't prefer to hire a teacher without dependents if they deem them equally suitable (or almost as suitable) for the position.
Reply
@Heliotrope
We disagree.
Ive often seen ISs who report a 1:1 waiver/place per employee only to find out later that the new or current policy is 1 waiver/place with a 50% discount on a second waiver/place regardless of the IS appointing a teaching couple to two positions. Its also becoming more common, though with increasing transparency, of an IS not offering full waivers/places or not offering any waivers/places at all.
The current trend is clarifying the policy post interview that waivers/places are contingent on availability and its easy for an IS to claim they are at capacity or that their allotment of waivers/places (which they arbitrarily establish) are exhausted and/or only discounts are available (usually 50%).
Savings potential is useless, though I understand why its a difficult topic for whoever is filling out the IS profile to get a grasp on, as savings is more about the individual rather than the comp.
Salary is only slightly better than useless, in terms of getting a sense of range for the region, but useless in specifics. There are ITs who have exactly a BA plus four years (or Masters plus 8 years) who to often are not offered the stipulated salary reported in the IS profile.
We disagree.
Ive often seen ISs who report a 1:1 waiver/place per employee only to find out later that the new or current policy is 1 waiver/place with a 50% discount on a second waiver/place regardless of the IS appointing a teaching couple to two positions. Its also becoming more common, though with increasing transparency, of an IS not offering full waivers/places or not offering any waivers/places at all.
The current trend is clarifying the policy post interview that waivers/places are contingent on availability and its easy for an IS to claim they are at capacity or that their allotment of waivers/places (which they arbitrarily establish) are exhausted and/or only discounts are available (usually 50%).
Savings potential is useless, though I understand why its a difficult topic for whoever is filling out the IS profile to get a grasp on, as savings is more about the individual rather than the comp.
Salary is only slightly better than useless, in terms of getting a sense of range for the region, but useless in specifics. There are ITs who have exactly a BA plus four years (or Masters plus 8 years) who to often are not offered the stipulated salary reported in the IS profile.
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Heliotrope
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Re: Reply
You've had different experiences than me and my former colleagues then.
It is true that the number of schools offering free tuition to two or more children for a couple only one of whom teaches is declining. Luckily a large majority of tier 1 and upper tier 2 schools still offers it though. We'll just have to see how long this continues to be the case. I'm not too optimistic, and I expect that that 83% number I mentioned previously will be closer to 70% in let's say five years from now, as lots of schools keep chipping away at benefits.
It is true that the number of schools offering free tuition to two or more children for a couple only one of whom teaches is declining. Luckily a large majority of tier 1 and upper tier 2 schools still offers it though. We'll just have to see how long this continues to be the case. I'm not too optimistic, and I expect that that 83% number I mentioned previously will be closer to 70% in let's say five years from now, as lots of schools keep chipping away at benefits.
Reply
@Heliotrope
We disagree.
Unfortunately upper tier ISs comprise a very small minority compared to lower tier ISs. Theres far more third tier ISs than first tier ISs. Even at upper tier ISs the benefit has been eroding and continues to be. In the WE there are plenty of upper tier ISs that are very transparent about their inability to provide waivers/places for dependent children.
Its above 50% but well below 83% or even 70% now in actuality and I wont be surprised if in a few years that falls to below 50%.
We disagree.
Unfortunately upper tier ISs comprise a very small minority compared to lower tier ISs. Theres far more third tier ISs than first tier ISs. Even at upper tier ISs the benefit has been eroding and continues to be. In the WE there are plenty of upper tier ISs that are very transparent about their inability to provide waivers/places for dependent children.
Its above 50% but well below 83% or even 70% now in actuality and I wont be surprised if in a few years that falls to below 50%.
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Heliotrope
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Re: Reply
I limited myself to tier 1 and upper tier 2 because the OP mentioned they're looking for "the best overall educational quality".
And while a tier 1 for teachers isn't automatically a tier 1 for students, the tier 1s do tend to provide what most parents would describe as a high quality education.
You're right, in Western Europe it's a bit lower: only around 4 out of 5 of the tier 1 schools there will provide couples only one of whom teachers with two or more free places for dependent children. If you add Eastern Europe it's actually worse: then only 3 out of 4 schools (for the whole of Europe) will give you 2 spots.
And while a tier 1 for teachers isn't automatically a tier 1 for students, the tier 1s do tend to provide what most parents would describe as a high quality education.
You're right, in Western Europe it's a bit lower: only around 4 out of 5 of the tier 1 schools there will provide couples only one of whom teachers with two or more free places for dependent children. If you add Eastern Europe it's actually worse: then only 3 out of 4 schools (for the whole of Europe) will give you 2 spots.