IB vs The Rest

secondplace
Posts: 191
Joined: Thu Apr 14, 2016 12:40 pm

Re: Discussion

Post by secondplace »

> @secondplace
>
> Yes, it is. The issue is the candidates not being from the EU. Remove the
> EU/non-EU variable and the lack of IB experience issue vanishes. There is
> no checklist or mandate for any immigration mandating IB experience.
>
> Only data matters. I dont believe you, I dont trust you, and its not a
> thing, because youre wrong.

If a candidate is from the EU then we don't have to worry about IB experience for permits.

If a teacher is non-EU and has IB experience then we can most likely get them a permit to work at our school.

If a teacher is non-EU and has no IB experience we are unlikely to be able to get them a permit.

Those are simple facts my apostrophe phobic bête noire.

Kisses. xx
PsyGuy
Posts: 10789
Joined: Wed Oct 12, 2011 9:51 am
Location: Northern Europe

Reply

Post by PsyGuy »

@secondplace

So you agree with me its not a requirement. Even for those who are not from the EU its only unlikely. Its not even EU or non-EU status, and its not IB experience, its you, youre IS is the common factor. If it was a requirement it would be impossible for everyone, thats how requirements work, theyre required.
The only simple fact is you dont know what facts are.
secondplace
Posts: 191
Joined: Thu Apr 14, 2016 12:40 pm

Re: Reply

Post by secondplace »

PsyGuy wrote:
> @secondplace
>
> So you agree with me its not a requirement. Even for those who are not from
> the EU its only unlikely. Its not even EU or non-EU status, and its not IB
> experience, its you, youre IS is the common factor. If it was a requirement
> it would be impossible for everyone, thats how requirements work, theyre
> required.
> The only simple fact is you dont know what facts are.

Again, for those at the back, for us to get permits for non-EU teachers we would need them to have IB experience. This isn't our school decision, it's the decision of the place our school is in.

As in, the people awarding the permits want it, need it, dare I say require it...

This may not be widespread, but it is true for where we are.

Hugs. xx


PS - The apostrophe (' or ’) is a punctuation mark, and sometimes a diacritical mark, in languages that use the Latin alphabet and some other alphabets. In English, the apostrophe is used for two basic purposes:

The marking of the omission of one or more letters, e.g. the contraction of "do not" to "don't".
popgirl
Posts: 29
Joined: Fri Jan 21, 2022 1:02 pm

Re: Reply

Post by popgirl »

PsyGuy wrote:

> So you agree with me its not a requirement. Even for those who are not from the EU its only unlikely. Its not even EU or non-EU status, and its not IB
> experience, its you, youre IS is the common factor. If it was a requirement it would be impossible for everyone, thats how requirements work, theyre
> required.

It could also be a matter of which member state you're going to. The different 27 countries do have different requirements, so that could also be it ?
secondplace
Posts: 191
Joined: Thu Apr 14, 2016 12:40 pm

Re: Reply

Post by secondplace »

popgirl wrote:

> It could also be a matter of which member state you're going to. The different 27
> countries do have different requirements, so that could also be it ?

Yes.

We're not EU, but EFTA. So our country rules apply.

Also, yes, different EU countries may have different rules/requirements.

I just get grumpy when my reality is questioned. Particularly when it's done without apostrophes...
PsyGuy
Posts: 10789
Joined: Wed Oct 12, 2011 9:51 am
Location: Northern Europe

Reply

Post by PsyGuy »

@secondplace

So you agree with me its not a requirement. IB experience isnt required for a visa, its only likely that they might need it for you and your IS. Even for those who are not from the EU its only unlikely. Its not even EU or non-EU status, and its not IB experience, its you, youre IS is the common factor. If it was a requirement it would be impossible for everyone, thats how requirements work, theyre required.
The only simple fact is you dont know what facts are.

@popgirl

Its not, there isnt a checklist some immigration officer has labeled 'IB experience', nor is their some codified regulation, rule or statute.
secondplace
Posts: 191
Joined: Thu Apr 14, 2016 12:40 pm

Re: Reply

Post by secondplace »

PsyGuy wrote:
> @secondplace
>
> So you agree with me its not a requirement. IB experience isnt required for
> a visa, its only likely that they might need it for you and your IS. Even
> for those who are not from the EU its only unlikely. Its not even EU or
> non-EU status, and its not IB experience, its you, youre IS is the common
> factor. If it was a requirement it would be impossible for everyone, thats
> how requirements work, theyre required.
> The only simple fact is you dont know what facts are.

As I said before:

'Sometimes it can be that work permit requirements come into play, depending on the country and the passport of the teacher.
So it may be necessary for a teacher to have prior (in this case) IB experience in order for the school to obtain a work permit.'

This is still true. No, there is a not an immigration checklist that I know of, but the reality is that we can't hire non EU teachers without IB experience. I wish it was different. It's not.

Also, please do learn how to use apostrophes.

xxx
Coimbra
Posts: 33
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2022 3:15 am

Re: Reply

Post by Coimbra »

Prior IB experience was also necessary to get visa for non-EU teachers where I used to teach. Also in Europe. Not just at my school but at all int schools in the country.
PsyGuy
Posts: 10789
Joined: Wed Oct 12, 2011 9:51 am
Location: Northern Europe

Reply

Post by PsyGuy »

@secondplace

So you agree with me. So there is no immigration checklist or any other guidance stipulating that IB experience is a requirement for a visa.

@Coimbra

No there isnt. There is no prior IB experience requirement for any EFTA or EU visa maintained by any immigration department or MOE for EU or non-EU visa. Not for your IS or any IS.
Heliotrope
Posts: 1167
Joined: Sun May 13, 2018 1:48 am

Re: Discussion

Post by Heliotrope »

PsyGuy wrote:
> @Heliotrope
>
> Its also what a IBO cheerleading cultist would say.

So then they're either a IB cheerleader OR a well-informed teacher familiar with the strengths and weaknesses of IB and who has reached the conclusion that he likes IB better than the alternatives (or both), since they would both say the same.

And with regards to needing the IB experience needed for the visa: even if there isn't a rule that explicitly mentions IB (there might be, there might not be), if you still need the IB experience to get the work permit for that country, then the supposed fact that IB isn't explicitly mentioned is irrelevant if you can't get the permit without the IB experience.
Philzim
Posts: 9
Joined: Fri Feb 07, 2020 12:44 am

Re: IB vs The Rest

Post by Philzim »

@PsyGuy I think we're in agreement. IB have just packaged inquiry methodology and global citizenship. As you say, it's not the preserve of IB. I've seen these delivered wonderfully in publicly funded state schools delivering a national curriculum, I've also seen a complete absence of inquiry & methodology (except for the posters on the walls) in IB accredited schools.

@ Spawnboy Apologies for my apparently frivolous tangent, it was my attempt to answer your questions through example. Let me be more direct:

1. What does the IB IB Framework has over the rest, and why is it so hard for educators to get into an IB school without the experience unless they are open to diving into a less desirable country?

Personally, I like IB as it is relatively free of political interference by state / national governments. Therefore "standards" & content are not manipulated for the convenience of politicians. (I worked in UK system for 12 yrs - political interference was a nightmare).
I like the relative coherence of IB programmes, the emphasis on inquiry & international mindedness. I like the values and aims of the programme, and the mission of IB. None of this is the unique preserve of IB, none of this is authentically realised in all IB schools, none of this is perfect. It's just better than I have seen in other systems (I haven't seen them all, but I've seen a few).

I don't think it is harder to get a job in an IB School than a non-IB school. I know that this is a very unpopular view on this board, but my experience recruiting teachers in 4 IB schools (and 2 non IB schools) just isn't that we placed the bar higher in the IB schools. All of the recruitment teams that I have worked on were looking for specific values and skills, the teacher that could demonstrate these best, and was the best 'fit' was offered the position. The "IB experience" issue is highly contextual, and isn't best described in abstract generalities. EG if all my DP Maths teachers are leaving, and I have a G12 DP Maths HL class to staff I am definitely looking for someone with DP experience. However, if the rest of my DP Maths teachers are staying on, and I'm just looking for a new maths teacher to join an already strong team I'm looking at a far wider range of factors than just DP experience. Whether someone is a good teacher has little relation with whether they have IB experience. Some of the best teachers that I recruited to teach IB had absolutely no IB experience at all. I particularly enjoyed watching colleagues leave challenging classrooms in their national systems, and fully appreciate the freedom & latitude to teach in our (far less challenging) IB classrooms.

2. Also once in an IB school and you move up into leadership positions how does that improve your chance to move up the ladder in a more desirable country?

One person's desirable country is another person's 'less desirable' country. Some of the highest salaries in the world are paid in the ME, but personally I wouldn't want to work there. However, general principles - once you're in the "IB world" you get to know colleagues across the IB system, you can demonstrate your commitment to the curriculum (become an examiner, join IBEN, join Curriculum Review groups etc). It then becomes far easier to move around between IB schools across the world. Colleagues are aware of your work, they understand how you will develop the programme etc. When you've been in leadership in an IB school colleagues in leadership across the network will understand the values and leadership style that you will bring to the programmes at their school. This will give you better access to schools in your target countries (esp if you attend leadership conferences in those countries).

3. Also does working in an IB school narrow your job prospect as you haven't been exposed to other curriculums?

I guess it depends on what other jobs you're looking at. It's such a broad question because it depends on the type of role, the context, your specific skills etc. I was asked to take up roles back in the UK national system after I'd been working in IB for 15 years (btw - there was NO way that I wanted to go back to a national system !). However, I have had colleagues who worked on specific IB developments (eg assessment, learning support, curriculum development) who then transitioned into other international bodies (such as CIS) and national bodies (in Australia, Chile, UK, US, Canada). In summary - "it ain't what you do, it's the way that you do it".
secondplace
Posts: 191
Joined: Thu Apr 14, 2016 12:40 pm

Re: Reply

Post by secondplace »

PsyGuy wrote:
> @secondplace
>
> So you agree with me. So there is no immigration checklist or any other
> guidance stipulating that IB experience is a requirement for a visa.
>
> @Coimbra
>
> No there isnt. There is no prior IB experience requirement for any EFTA or
> EU visa maintained by any immigration department or MOE for EU or non-EU
> visa. Not for your IS or any IS.

Yes. Sorry. I dreamt it all. None of what I said is real. I was just making stuff up for likes and clicks and attention.

I wish I could be helpful and share my experiences with others. But I am just too obsessed with my own ego and desire to start arguments in an empty room...

Why do you insist on being a mentalist?
Heliotrope
Posts: 1167
Joined: Sun May 13, 2018 1:48 am

Re: Reply

Post by Heliotrope »

@secondplace
Just a heads up:

When it suits him, @PsyGuy pretends not to detect sarcasm, so he will likely accept your 'apology' and thank you for 'agreeing' with him.

And he might also pretend to think that you meant 'mentalist' as 'being a magician who performs feats that apparently demonstrate extraordinary mental powers', instead of the 'British derogatory slang used to call a person insane, referring to a diminished state of cognition'.

It's the easy way out for him.
PsyGuy
Posts: 10789
Joined: Wed Oct 12, 2011 9:51 am
Location: Northern Europe

Reply

Post by PsyGuy »

@Heliotrope

OR they are an ill informed IT who is just jumping on name recognition of a well known curriculum, with no understanding of the IBs strengths or weaknesses, and likes the IB because why not like the IB. OR something else including being an IB cultist.

No, visas and immigration are very rules and regulation driven. Its in that category of issues in IE thats very well documented.

@Philzim

I dont think we are disagreeing so much in technical specifics. My reflection is that youre end conclusion is more positive of the IB than mine is. When the IB is done well, its usually attributed to some characteristic of the IB. Where I see an IB program done well, I attribute it to ITs who really drive and exemplify the general ideals of inquiry methodology and global citizenship, which can and would have been done well without any attachment or reference to the IB. IB and global citizenship/inquiry have just become so synonymous with one another much the same way Kleenex has become synonymous for facial tissue. Where all the IB has really done is package and market something very ordinary.

@secondplace

No, your just an IB cultists trying to elevate IB into something special claiming that even immigration departments recognise something special about IB experience, when its just not the case. Theres no checklist, no guidance, no rule, no regulation, no statute that you can point to that states IB experience is a requirement. You attempt to obfuscate this with terminology thats not absolute, using terms such as "likely" and "unlikely". Many issues and aspects in IE are not documented, immigration requirements are however, and your statements are nothing but unsubstantiated claims of an IB cultist.
Heliotrope
Posts: 1167
Joined: Sun May 13, 2018 1:48 am

Re: Reply

Post by Heliotrope »

Not sure why it's so difficult for you to accept that well-informed teachers would genuinely like IB, and prefer it to the alternatives.

I know a number of teachers who taught the same two curriculums. Some preferred one, others preferred the other.
We all have our individual preferences, and we can think differently about what exactly makes a curriculum good or bad. You obviously don't prefer IB, and that's fine too of course. But well-informed and experienced teachers can certainly prefer the IB without being a cheerleader, or without any Kool-Aid involved.
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