IB vs The Rest

Spawnboy99
Posts: 138
Joined: Sat Jun 21, 2014 9:14 pm

IB vs The Rest

Post by Spawnboy99 »

I have taught for a number of years both locally and internationally, this has opened the doors for me to experience a number of curriculums. I'm just curious about what the IB Framework has over the rest, and why is it so hard for educators to get into an IB school without the experience unless they are open to diving into a less desirable country. Also once in an IB school and you move up into leadership positions how does that improve your chance to move up the ladder in a more desirable country? Also does working in an IB school narrow your job prospect as you haven't been exposed to other curriculums?
popgirl
Posts: 29
Joined: Fri Jan 21, 2022 1:02 pm

Re: IB vs The Rest

Post by popgirl »

I didn't find it very difficult getting a job in an IB school. Good teaching is good teaching.

[quote=Spawnboy99 post_id=63586 time=1673920140 user_id=184954]
Also does working in an IB school narrow your job prospect as you haven't been exposed to other curriculums?
[/quote]

Why wouldn't you have taught other curriculums ? Didn't you teach at home first ?
Spawnboy99
Posts: 138
Joined: Sat Jun 21, 2014 9:14 pm

Re: IB vs The Rest

Post by Spawnboy99 »

@popgirl, Not the question as I have said have taught both locally and internationally for over 2 decades now, what I meant is that it seems a lot of educators once they are in and using the IB curriculum tend to stay in the IB curriculum, does this then narrow your opportunity in the future to seek other schools which use a different curriculum.
popgirl
Posts: 29
Joined: Fri Jan 21, 2022 1:02 pm

Re: IB vs The Rest

Post by popgirl »

Spawnboy99 wrote:
> @popgirl, Not the question as I have said have taught both locally and
> internationally for over 2 decades now, what I meant is that it seems a lot
> of educators once they are in and using the IB curriculum tend to stay in
> the IB curriculum, does this then narrow your opportunity in the future to
> seek other schools which use a different curriculum.


So you mean, is it difficult to go back to a US, Can, Aus or UK style school after teaching the IB ? I'd guess that would depend on the school you were applying to, and the preconceptions of the admin on the IB. I can't imagine it would narrow them much internationally - quite the reverse. At least that's been my experience. Maybe if you were trying to go back home, they'd prefer someone who'd been working in a school with the same curriculum . ?
PsyGuy
Posts: 10789
Joined: Wed Oct 12, 2011 9:51 am
Location: Northern Europe

Response

Post by PsyGuy »

Its a cult with very good marketing and a complex and intricate framework that makes belonging easier to stay up on the meds/peds/asst than doing so externally and from outside the organization. No other curriculum requires more meds/peds/asst maintenance to keep current than the IB.
Its that same level of intricacy and complexity that makes the IB so hard to get into. It has its own lexicon, not to say that others dont, but the IBs is particularly, well, intricate and complex. Thats just the talk, the walk is just as involved. The PYP approach with interdisciplinary units of inquiry is such an alien way of presenting material that primary DTs/ITS are not familiar with that it takes a year just in training before you learn the secret handshake and then you have to spend the obligatory time practicing it before you get good enough at to be a comfortable enough to make it look not a massive struggle just to get through the bubble planner of content.
That is an investment of time that just takes time before your doing it right.
At SLL all curriculum are highly congruent in content objectives, but how those objectives are taught vary greatly in meds/peds/asst.

Pretty well actually, in any particular IB IS unless they are a foundational IBWS, executive leadership is usually the least knowledgeable about IB concepts and practice, followed by senior leadership, then teaching faculty, with the highest level of competency found in junior leadership (at the HOD and Coordinator levels) usually those edus in those junior leadership positions get there by having a superior level of IB understanding than others on the faculty. Being a cheerleader for the IB doesnt hurt either, as that gets you visits teams and thats usually a key requirement for IB leadership at the senior level of leadership, since thats essentially an indicator of having intimate knowledge in the authorization process, which is what new IB ISs look for.

Not really, most ITs just dont. To be precise, though leaving isnt the issue, going from IB to US or UK NCs or one of the other minor curriculum isnt hard, its coming back to the IB. Theres a mentality that once you leave the cult you should be shunned in coming back. This is usually cloaked as having your IBness dated by however many years you were away. Some ITs make it work, primarily through maintaining IBEN roles such as examiner, etc.
Philzim
Posts: 9
Joined: Fri Feb 07, 2020 12:44 am

Re: IB vs The Rest

Post by Philzim »

IB schools are looking for good teachers just like any other schools, I'm not sure why there is a perception that IB schools are more difficult to get a job in than other schools. Doing recruitment in 2 IB schools we assumed that a good teacher would be able to pick IB up just like any other curriculum. I was always much more interested in the teachers values and skills than I was in their "IB knowledge".

There's no reason why it should be harder for you to return to a national system (eg UK, US, Can) after working in IB, many colleagues have ping ponged back & forth over the years. In some cases your IB experience is a positive advantage for getting back into a national system, esp. if it's a role focused on concept based inquiry, service learning, critical thinking etc.

I'm not so sure about the comments re. IB being a "cult", or being all about the lingo. I left my national system after 12 yrs as a VP, and have now worked in IB curriculum for 18 yrs (also up to VP level). I really enjoy the IB system, when it's done well it's incredibly powerful. I don't consider myself a "cheerleader" for IB, I know of the drawbacks & deficiencies, I just think it's the best curriculum out there.
FabFour
Posts: 13
Joined: Tue Sep 20, 2022 8:07 am
Location: New England, USA

Re: IB vs The Rest

Post by FabFour »

Philzim wrote:
> IB schools are looking for good teachers just like any other schools, I'm
> not sure why there is a perception that IB schools are more difficult to
> get a job in than other schools. Doing recruitment in 2 IB schools we
> assumed that a good teacher would be able to pick IB up just like any other
> curriculum. I was always much more interested in the teachers values and
> skills than I was in their "IB knowledge".
>

Well, I may be a sample size of one (or two), but my husband and I were denied jobs at a low-tier Balkan-area school because we had no IB experience. Of course, that could be just the excuse he used because he didn't like something else about us (we did interview-- just not meant to be I guess), but it was a point for him to use as an excuse. Also, most job descriptions at IB schools I've seen list IB experience as a prerequisite.
secondplace
Posts: 191
Joined: Thu Apr 14, 2016 12:40 pm

Re: IB vs The Rest

Post by secondplace »

Sometimes it can be that work permit requirements come into play, depending on the country and the passport of the teacher.

So it may be necessary for a teacher to have prior (in this case) IB experience in order for the school to obtain a work permit.
PsyGuy
Posts: 10789
Joined: Wed Oct 12, 2011 9:51 am
Location: Northern Europe

Reply

Post by PsyGuy »

@Philzim

The perception that IB ISs are harder to get into exists because it reflects reality. While your "best practices" approach is your approach it is not the most common, or even majority approach. Many IB ISs require prior IB experience to get past the screening process.

IE experience in general is seen as a detriment in transitioning from IE to DE, typically DE leaders are concerned with: a lack of local regulation familiarity, lack of SPED/SEN/LD experience, behavior management, and local curriculum experience.

Thats exactly what a cult cheerleader would write.

@FabFour

Agreed, and add the recruiters pre-screening resumes in line at fairs and if you dont have X years experience you dont even get to talk to the senior recruiter, much less get an interview.

@secondplace

That is utter bunk, no its poo bunk. There is no immigration department/ministry that has a check mark or requirement for IB experience in an IB IS for a visa. Nor is there an MOE or DOE that would specifically require IB experience for a permit in an IB IS. Such a requirement would be beyond even what the IBO requires and they are the regulating authority for their curriculum and program.
Heliotrope
Posts: 1167
Joined: Sun May 13, 2018 1:48 am

Re: Reply

Post by Heliotrope »

PsyGuy wrote:
> @Philzim
> Thats exactly what a cult cheerleader would write.

It's also what a well-informed teacher, familiar with the strengths and weaknesses of IB, who has reached the conclusion that he likes IB better than the alternatives, would say.
Coimbra
Posts: 33
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2022 3:15 am

Re: Reply

Post by Coimbra »

I have taught at British, American and full-IB schools and just like @Philzim I think the IB curriculum is the best of the three. I think it delivers the most well-rounded students and that they are better prepared to succeed at university. A lot of teachers I know with kids have made sure they got a job at an IB school so their kids can do IB.
I know there are good IB schools in nice countries that will not dismiss candidates without IB-experience but yes, having experience will help. I switched to an IB-school when I noticed all of the schools I hoped to end up at one day all had IB DP so I thought it smart to have that experience on my CV.
Philzim
Posts: 9
Joined: Fri Feb 07, 2020 12:44 am

Re: IB vs The Rest

Post by Philzim »

In some ways this demarcation of IB schools vs the rest is a little misleading.

I think the question is: "to what extent does IB accreditation make the school an "IB" school ?"
or "are all IB schools similar ?", or "what is 'IB-ness' ?".

I've worked in 4 schools that had IB accreditation, and all 4 schools were very different to each other.

School 1 was a very big Y7-13 school offering DP alongside an attenuated UK national curriculum G6-10. This school was very similar to a UK grammar school in culture, language and practices. The DP was very successful, but it was merely one element of a range of factors that made this school successful. At this school hiring practices were more focussed on getting the best teachers from UK, rather than thinking about developing an internationally minded faculty, IB experience barely flickered on the register.

School 2 was a medium size mixed boarding & day K-12 school offering IPC, Common Core (G6-8), iGCSE & DP. All of the students were national students (incl. boarders), yet the school had strong international values, and felt like a true international sch. When you walked through the door this school immediately felt like an IB school, international mindedness was not just an element of this sch (like sch 1), but was articulated through their many curricula. Leadership & faculty at this school were all very IB minded ("part of the cult" as a forum member here might say, or "good people who have clear values about the role of education" as I would say). Faculty here were about 50% UK and 50% rest of the world, and those UK colleagues were very internationally minded. At this school we hired people who were a good fit for our approach (emphasis on inquiry approach, lots of activities, a propensity to out-doorness, etc), this was a far stronger factor than any IB experience.

School 3 was a medium size K-12 IB World School, offering all 4 programmes, no other curricula - just IB. Purportedly this school existed for IB (much modelled after UWC), and was outwardly drenched in the IB values, mission, practices etc etc. The faculty were very international (only 4 Brits in a faculty of 75, colleagues came from 20+ countries), and the students were about 50:50 national:international. However, the local context, ownership issues, and institutional legacy meant that much of the 'IB-ness' of this school was surface presentation only. At this school IB experience was strongly preferred, but we still hired people without IB experience.

School 4 - a medium sized K-12 school offering self written curricula K-10, and DP. Despite the DP being the only IB bit on top of 10 preceding yrs of non-IB curriculum this school fairly exemplifies the IB values and practices. International mindedness is there in the air..., the school has been "born that way". Hiring practices at this school certainly like IB experience, but it's not a requirement.

So, it's interesting that all 4 IB schools were very different to each other, the school doing the most IB (only IB) was the least IB in practices (esp Leadership practices), yet the school offering the widest range of curricula was the most IB.

To further demonstrate the point: I worked at 2 government schools in my national system that were far more "IB" than schools 1,3 & 4 above, yet neither of these schools had barely heard of IB. Both schools were offering UK national curriculum, but they managed to be very "IB" in the school values, ways of working, expectations etc without it being labelled as IB. After all, IB was developed from the work of Kurt Hahn at Gordonstoun in Scotland, and the Atlantic College in Wales. - those values are available to all educators regardless of the curriculum stamp on the schemes of work.
secondplace
Posts: 191
Joined: Thu Apr 14, 2016 12:40 pm

Re: Reply

Post by secondplace »

> @secondplace
>
> That is utter bunk, no its poo bunk. There is no immigration
> department/ministry that has a check mark or requirement for IB experience
> in an IB IS for a visa. Nor is there an MOE or DOE that would specifically
> require IB experience for a permit in an IB IS. Such a requirement would be
> beyond even what the IBO requires and they are the regulating authority for
> their curriculum and program.

Glad that you're across all countries and their requirements...

Unfortunately you're wrong and it is a problem for us to get visas for non EU teachers without IB experience.

I wish it wasn't but it is.

I know you won't believe me, and I know you'll write an unintelligible reply as to why 'your write and Im wrong'. But trust me, my semi-literate amis, this is a thing.
Spawnboy99
Posts: 138
Joined: Sat Jun 21, 2014 9:14 pm

Re: IB vs The Rest

Post by Spawnboy99 »

@Philzim please re-read my comment which you haven't answered and have gone off on a complete tangent not asking to compare your past and present IB schools, would like the below questions answered if at all possible.

1. What does the IB IB Framework has over the rest, and why is it so hard for educators to get into an IB school without the experience unless they are open to diving into a less desirable country?

2. Also once in an IB school and you move up into leadership positions how does that improve your chance to move up the ladder in a more desirable country?

3. Also does working in an IB school narrow your job prospect as you haven't been exposed to other curriculums?


Philzim wrote:
> In some ways this demarcation of IB schools vs the rest is a little
> misleading.
>
> I think the question is: "to what extent does IB accreditation make
> the school an "IB" school ?"
> or "are all IB schools similar ?", or "what is 'IB-ness'
> ?".
>
> I've worked in 4 schools that had IB accreditation, and all 4 schools were
> very different to each other.
>
> School 1 was a very big Y7-13 school offering DP alongside an attenuated UK
> national curriculum G6-10. This school was very similar to a UK grammar
> school in culture, language and practices. The DP was very successful, but
> it was merely one element of a range of factors that made this school
> successful. At this school hiring practices were more focussed on getting
> the best teachers from UK, rather than thinking about developing an
> internationally minded faculty, IB experience barely flickered on the
> register.
>
> School 2 was a medium size mixed boarding & day K-12 school offering
> IPC, Common Core (G6-8), iGCSE & DP. All of the students were national
> students (incl. boarders), yet the school had strong international values,
> and felt like a true international sch. When you walked through the door
> this school immediately felt like an IB school, international mindedness
> was not just an element of this sch (like sch 1), but was articulated
> through their many curricula. Leadership & faculty at this school were
> all very IB minded ("part of the cult" as a forum member here
> might say, or "good people who have clear values about the role of
> education" as I would say). Faculty here were about 50% UK and 50%
> rest of the world, and those UK colleagues were very internationally
> minded. At this school we hired people who were a good fit for our approach
> (emphasis on inquiry approach, lots of activities, a propensity to
> out-doorness, etc), this was a far stronger factor than any IB experience.
>
> School 3 was a medium size K-12 IB World School, offering all 4 programmes,
> no other curricula - just IB. Purportedly this school existed for IB (much
> modelled after UWC), and was outwardly drenched in the IB values, mission,
> practices etc etc. The faculty were very international (only 4 Brits in a
> faculty of 75, colleagues came from 20+ countries), and the students were
> about 50:50 national:international. However, the local context, ownership
> issues, and institutional legacy meant that much of the 'IB-ness' of this
> school was surface presentation only. At this school IB experience was
> strongly preferred, but we still hired people without IB experience.
>
> School 4 - a medium sized K-12 school offering self written curricula K-10,
> and DP. Despite the DP being the only IB bit on top of 10 preceding yrs of
> non-IB curriculum this school fairly exemplifies the IB values and
> practices. International mindedness is there in the air..., the school has
> been "born that way". Hiring practices at this school certainly
> like IB experience, but it's not a requirement.
>
> So, it's interesting that all 4 IB schools were very different to each
> other, the school doing the most IB (only IB) was the least IB in practices
> (esp Leadership practices), yet the school offering the widest range of
> curricula was the most IB.
>
> To further demonstrate the point: I worked at 2 government schools in my
> national system that were far more "IB" than schools 1,3 & 4
> above, yet neither of these schools had barely heard of IB. Both schools
> were offering UK national curriculum, but they managed to be very
> "IB" in the school values, ways of working, expectations etc
> without it being labelled as IB. After all, IB was developed from the work
> of Kurt Hahn at Gordonstoun in Scotland, and the Atlantic College in Wales.
> - those values are available to all educators regardless of the curriculum
> stamp on the schemes of work.
PsyGuy
Posts: 10789
Joined: Wed Oct 12, 2011 9:51 am
Location: Northern Europe

Discussion

Post by PsyGuy »

@Heliotrope

Its also what a IBO cheerleading cultist would say.

@Coimbra

Thats what happens when you drink the Koolaid.

@Philzim

Thats really at the locus of the issue, what is IBness? Most of it is just wrapping and packaging. The value add is the guidance and how the guidance is presented/delivered, but the core of IBness is little more than inquiry methodology and some derivative of global citizenship. Neither of which are the exclusive domain of the IBO, nor are they particularly novel or noteworthy.

@secondplace

Yes, it is. The issue is the candidates not being from the EU. Remove the EU/non-EU variable and the lack of IB experience issue vanishes. There is no checklist or mandate for any immigration mandating IB experience.

Only data matters. I dont believe you, I dont trust you, and its not a thing, because youre wrong.
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