Morals and Contracts

Spawnboy99
Posts: 138
Joined: Sat Jun 21, 2014 9:14 pm

Morals and Contracts

Post by Spawnboy99 »

Are there morals when it comes to signing a contract and then reneging on it? I have been given a contract for an area my family and I are not too thrilled about but a great job opportunity. Do we sign it and send it through, currently still in the interview rounds for schools and locations and also great career opportunities that are better suited. It's a gamble. People must have been in the same situation given a contract to sign but a few weeks or a month later getting a better offer somewhere else.

The only thing both parties have invested in is time and the role doesn't start until August 2023.
PsyGuy
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Joined: Wed Oct 12, 2011 9:51 am
Location: Northern Europe

Response

Post by PsyGuy »

Moral consequences or material consequences?

Morally, my position is very much on the business side. Its a contract not an oath you swore, not a crusade, not a mission, and not a suicide pact. Smart people change positions when the data changes. You wouldnt see some programmer stay with Acme Technology when Apple or Google offers them a position. Sticking with Acme is what many professionals would classify as 'stupid'. You dont see a doctor stick with small town Acme hospital if John Hopkins wants to talk opportunity, thats what those professionals would call 'crazy'. That "your word is your bond" that gets thrown around is entirely one sided guilt, shaming, and fear mongering. The ISs word isnt their bond, they would think an apology over email is their only obligation to you despite having a contract. They know just as you should know that a contract is a business agreement and if they or you want a remedy youre going to have to go through a suitable legal proceeding for them to get anything from you, just as you would have to do the same to get anything from them. Thats the totality of it. Youre not less a professional or have less character or integrity for making a sensible business decision that just happens to be to their disadvantage or determent.
They arent even going to lose anything, they are going grumble and whine a bit and then they will hire someone else. There isnt a palatable loss for them.
shadowjack
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Joined: Sat Oct 06, 2012 9:49 am

Re: Morals and Contracts

Post by shadowjack »

At the same time, the school offered you a position in good faith. You accepted in good faith. If the contract is good enough to take, it is good enough to honour. Otherwise simply say no thanks and continue looking.

By the time you change your mind, with the justification of August, the school has stopped looking for candidates for the job. They have focused elsewhere. And by the time you get around to letting them know you are not going to follow through on the contract, other, more suitable candidates are gone.

So do everybody a favour. Either say no if you have doubts, or honour the contract. It's pretty simple.
milesaway
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Joined: Wed Mar 10, 2021 9:00 pm

Re: Morals and Contracts

Post by milesaway »

I agree with Psyc, you owe them nothing. I have seen way too many schools not honor contracts in the last two years, cancel contracts or just change contracts to suit their needs. No consideration is taken for the teacher or their family....this goes for non profit or profit.
If you got this job through a search firm, that is a different deal and that puts you in jeopardy with them and your future search prospects if you ever use them again.
Heliotrope
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Joined: Sun May 13, 2018 1:48 am

Re: Morals and Contracts

Post by Heliotrope »

I agree with @shadowjack

The answer is to your question is of course yes, but whether or not that stops you is up to you.
My point of view is that the more teachers back out of agreements, the more schools will do the same, and vice versa. It's already happening too much on both sides unfortunately. It's always interesting to see how some teachers complain about schools not honoring contracts and then they themselves advice others to back out if something slightly better comes along, just as there will also be recruiters who complain about teachers reneging, while regularly cancelling contracts themselves as well.

I've often told a school that I needed more time before deciding because I was still interviewing with another school, and every time I was given more time. To be fair, usually the extra time I asked for was a week tops, since I will stop looking or interviewing once I've signed a contract.

If there's a legitimate reason to back out (civil war breaks out, family member back home gets seriously ill, etc.) I would back out, and the earlier in the hiring season it is, the better I'd feel about that. Personally I wouldn't classify the location not being too thrilling as a legitimate reason, unless safety is an issue there, but with a family in tow I assume you wouldn't have considered the school in the first place if that was the case.
Seeing how you phrased parts of your post, I suspect you'll like @PsyGuy's and @milesaway's answers better than @shadowjack's and mine.
Spawnboy99
Posts: 138
Joined: Sat Jun 21, 2014 9:14 pm

Re: Morals and Contracts

Post by Spawnboy99 »

Thanks for your feedback @Hellotrope, but the location is an important factor when considering a move for a single or a family. location and area need to be seriously considered for a number of reasons let alone your or your family's mental well-being and what the location has to offer to make that transition work. If we are looking at the UAE or even China location and the area does play a factor. You did mention a family in tow, but one can't at times judge a location from Google Search and a school website, one needs to also speak to teachers in the school or try and reach out to people living in the area that can give a first hand experience.


Heliotrope wrote:
> I agree with @shadowjack
>
> The answer is to your question is of course yes, but whether or not that
> stops you is up to you.
> My point of view is that the more teachers back out of agreements, the more
> schools will do the same, and vice versa. It's already happening too much
> on both sides unfortunately. It's always interesting to see how some
> teachers complain about schools not honoring contracts and then they
> themselves advice others to back out if something slightly better comes
> along, just as there will also be recruiters who complain about teachers
> reneging, while regularly cancelling contracts themselves as well.
>
> I've often told a school that I needed more time before deciding because I
> was still interviewing with another school, and every time I was given more
> time. To be fair, usually the extra time I asked for was a week tops, since
> I will stop looking or interviewing once I've signed a contract.
>
> If there's a legitimate reason to back out (civil war breaks out, family
> member back home gets seriously ill, etc.) I would back out, and the
> earlier in the hiring season it is, the better I'd feel about that.
> Personally I wouldn't classify the location not being too thrilling as a
> legitimate reason, unless safety is an issue there, but with a family in
> tow I assume you wouldn't have considered the school in the first place if
> that was the case.
> Seeing how you phrased parts of your post, I suspect you'll like @PsyGuy's
> and @milesaway's answers better than @shadowjack's and mine.
Heliotrope
Posts: 1167
Joined: Sun May 13, 2018 1:48 am

Re: Morals and Contracts

Post by Heliotrope »

Spawnboy99 wrote:
> Thanks for your feedback @Hellotrope, but the location is an important factor when
> considering a move for a single or a family. location and area need to be seriously
> considered for a number of reasons let alone your or your family's mental well-being
> and what the location has to offer to make that transition work. If we are looking at
> the UAE or even China location and the area does play a factor. You did mention a
> family in tow, but one can't at times judge a location from Google Search and a
> school website, one needs to also speak to teachers in the school or try and reach
> out to people living in the area that can give a first hand experience.

I totally agree with you that location is important, especially with a family (for example, air pollution hits kids a lot harder than it does adults).
That's why I assumed the location of the school that offered you the contract is ok, otherwise why even interview with them if the location isn't acceptable? (that's why I said: "I assume you wouldn't have considered the school in the first place if that was the case.")
expatscot
Posts: 307
Joined: Thu Jan 14, 2016 4:26 am

Re: Morals and Contracts

Post by expatscot »

Heliotrope wrote:

> That's why I assumed the location of the school that offered you the contract is ok,
> otherwise why even interview with them if the location isn't acceptable? (that's why
> I said: "I assume you wouldn't have considered the school in the first place if
> that was the case.")

The location might have been fine at the time of the interview, but much less appealing now. I reckon there are many teachers, for example, who accepted jobs in China at the start of last year who now regret it, and there will be some who might have accepted a few weeks ago who are now having second thoughts.

Generally, though, I take your approach - if you accept, you stick with it regardless. However there has to be flexibility to allow for an allegedly Keynsian approach if the facts change.
Heliotrope
Posts: 1167
Joined: Sun May 13, 2018 1:48 am

Re: Morals and Contracts

Post by Heliotrope »

expatscot wrote:
> The location might have been fine at the time of the interview, but much less
> appealing now. I reckon there are many teachers, for example, who accepted jobs in
> China at the start of last year who now regret it, and there will be some who might
> have accepted a few weeks ago who are now having second thoughts.
>
> Generally, though, I take your approach - if you accept, you stick with it
> regardless. However there has to be flexibility to allow for an allegedly Keynsian
> approach if the facts change.


I agree, if there's a big change in terms of safety, or another major change like a family member back home gets seriously ill and needs care, I would back out.

People taking jobs in China might have been carelessly optimistic though, as nothing that is happening there right now should have been a huge surprise, or was at least not something that was very unlikely to happen.
nathan61
Posts: 92
Joined: Tue Nov 05, 2013 11:08 pm

Re: Morals and Contracts

Post by nathan61 »

Maybe I am "old school," but I only sign a contract if I mean to honor it. It sounds like the OP wants to sign a "safety" or fallback contract and then pursue other job offers. Does anyone really need to ask if that is "moral?" Aren't contracts a form of promise? Deliberately signing one that you don't intend to honor is akin to lying for your own opportunistic gains.

Finding a job overseas can be very stressful because schools have different recruiting schedules. Some places will offer you a job early in the recruiting season and you may regret passing on it. The vast majority of teachers are honoring their contracts, and if you have to go on a forum to ask if it is cool to lie and sign multiple contracts then you are not somebody who should be educating the next generation.

As others have said, if there are extenuating circumstances then that is a different story.
Asteger
Posts: 18
Joined: Sat Jul 25, 2020 2:53 am

Re: Morals and Contracts

Post by Asteger »

I think everyone knows that if you sign a contract, you should carry though on it. If you sign, feeling that the destination school is in an 'undesireable location', then that does not change things. Presumably, the school did not shift locations after you'd signed! Pretending, because the school isn't in your favourite place, that you have some sort of opt-out clause ('I mean, how could they expect us to go there?!') is disingenuous. If this was your feeling when signing, then you did so in bad faith. My feeling is that the OP knows all this, but with discussion is construct some ethical space to feel good about pulling out of a commitment. On the other hand, from the school's point of view it's probably better that you don't come. You probably deceived them, and if you are to be unhappy there then it's better they know now and find someone better.
secondplace
Posts: 191
Joined: Thu Apr 14, 2016 12:40 pm

Re: Morals and Contracts

Post by secondplace »

It's really very simple.

If you sign the contract then you should honour it. You would expect the same from the other . - in this case the school.

You can dress it up however you like and play the family card etc. but if you don't intend to honour the contract don't sign it. If you have doubts, don't sign.

Acting with moral integrity is very straightforward. You either do or you don't.

If you're not sure about a school/position/location then go with your gut and don't sign.
PsyGuy
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Location: Northern Europe

Comment

Post by PsyGuy »

This is why evil ISs and their leadership continue to win, they expect good ITs will do whats right and they can do whatever because evil. Evil knows that good will be fair and evil never was concerned with fair and will happily use it to their advantage and goods detriment.
secondplace
Posts: 191
Joined: Thu Apr 14, 2016 12:40 pm

Re: Morals and Contracts

Post by secondplace »

@psyguy - I'm on the side of the angels mate.

There's right and wrong, and when people need to attempt logical gymnastics to explain away their lack of morals then you know they know what they are considering is wrong.

I'm not unsympathetic to individual circumstances, but people need to think their actions through. And think about how they would like to be treated.

Peace. x
PsyGuy
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Location: Northern Europe

Reply

Post by PsyGuy »

@secondplace

Im on the me side, no one in IE will care more about an IT and their welfare than the IT, least of all some IS and its leadership. If that takes mental gymnastics to understand, well thats you.

Theres nothing "wrong" here. Its changing your position when the data changes, thats what smart people do. Its being open minded to evolving events and keeping your trajectory fluid. Would you change course if the weather changed and your course was going to take you through a massive storm, or would you stubbornly sail on, because of commitment to a past decision? A contract isnt a suicide pact.

Thats exactly what evil wants. Good faith only works when it goes both ways.
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