IB Experience at Lower Pay Worthy Investment?

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twofromusa
Posts: 31
Joined: Mon Jul 22, 2019 10:42 am

IB Experience at Lower Pay Worthy Investment?

Post by twofromusa »

Hello,
I have an opportunity to get some IB experience. I’ve never worked at an IB school. I also don’t have any IB training, but the school promised to pay for some classes.
This will be a new contract and I can pick PYP or MYP (both jobs are opening up).

If I continue with Common Core, I will get about 25% more pay for the next 2-year contract.

Both schools are lower tier 2.

I’m very curious about IB and reading about it never does justice compared to practicing it.

What about the future carrier possibilities? In your opinion, is it worth taking a pay cut for 2 years to get IB experience? I hope to stay within Eastern Europe, Middle East, and Asia geographic area.

I love teaching both age groups (elementary and middle school). Is one of more value than the other in the job market when it comes to IB?

Thank you!
PsyGuy
Posts: 10789
Joined: Wed Oct 12, 2011 9:51 am
Location: Northern Europe

Response

Post by PsyGuy »

I have significant doubts these ISs are tier 2 ISs. They are more likely upper or floater tier 3 ISs.

Generally yes, IB experience is worth it. IB ISs comprise a substantially large portion of the second tier, so effectively the IB bridges the third tier to the first tier for many career track ITs. You can make that transition without IB but its often harder and takes longer.
The issue is thus if this AS (CC ISs are generally considered ASs) is really tier 2 than you dont need IB as much to move up to tier 1 at a later point since that transition often means waiting for a tier 1 IS ina region you want to have a vacancy youre competitive for. IB experience can have utility in that case as there are first tier classic IBWSs. If you think youll be in the second tier a short time (1 contract maybe 2) for what ever value your metrics have than spending time in the IB probably isnt worth the reduction in salary. If you think youll be in the second tier a longer period of time than getting the IB experience is worth some time as it opens more opportunities for you. This all assumes though that these two ISs really are second tier, and again, they probably arent. In which case yes, IB experience is worth it.

PYP is more valuable than MYP. PYP is so very different from the traditional curriculum construct of stranded subject content that a new PYP ITs first year is really a training year. After two years you will have a skill set that isnt available through another pathway. Compared to MYP which at 50 hrs/yr. in each subject group that what it really means is taking whatever lesson design you have based on another curriculum getting patched and adapted with IBness. The only benefit there is for MYP experience is the potential of it leading to a DIP assignment and DIP experience, assuming your IB IS is a classic IBWS and has a DIP program. If they dont, trying to peddle MYP experience into a DIP appointment at another IS doesnt have a lot of utility in recruiting.
twofromusa
Posts: 31
Joined: Mon Jul 22, 2019 10:42 am

Re: IB Experience at Lower Pay Worthy Investment?

Post by twofromusa »

Thank you, Psy!
Both schools are legit and have decent reviews here. The packages are okay….definitely not as comprehensive as I would like to see in the future. The IB school has had a DP program for about 7 years (based on ibo.org). I’m not interested in teaching above grade 8 though.

We’ll see what happens with the offers. There are still a couple of unknown’s that I want to clarify with both schools. I also want to do a bit more investigating of employee turnover and overall stability before making a decision.
DHInt
Posts: 4
Joined: Sat Sep 24, 2022 12:08 pm

Re: Response

Post by DHInt »

PsyGuy wrote:
> I have significant doubts these ISs are tier 2 ISs. They are more likely
> upper or floater tier 3 ISs.
>
> Generally yes, IB experience is worth it. IB ISs comprise a substantially
> large portion of the second tier, so effectively the IB bridges the third
> tier to the first tier for many career track ITs. You can make that
> transition without IB but its often harder and takes longer.
> The issue is thus if this AS (CC ISs are generally considered ASs) is
> really tier 2 than you dont need IB as much to move up to tier 1 at a later
> point since that transition often means waiting for a tier 1 IS ina region
> you want to have a vacancy youre competitive for. IB experience can have
> utility in that case as there are first tier classic IBWSs. If you think
> youll be in the second tier a short time (1 contract maybe 2) for what ever
> value your metrics have than spending time in the IB probably isnt worth
> the reduction in salary. If you think youll be in the second tier a longer
> period of time than getting the IB experience is worth some time as it
> opens more opportunities for you. This all assumes though that these two
> ISs really are second tier, and again, they probably arent. In which case
> yes, IB experience is worth it.
>
> PYP is more valuable than MYP. PYP is so very different from the
> traditional curriculum construct of stranded subject content that a new PYP
> ITs first year is really a training year. After two years you will have a
> skill set that isnt available through another pathway. Compared to MYP
> which at 50 hrs/yr. in each subject group that what it really means is
> taking whatever lesson design you have based on another curriculum getting
> patched and adapted with IBness. The only benefit there is for MYP
> experience is the potential of it leading to a DIP assignment and DIP
> experience, assuming your IB IS is a classic IBWS and has a DIP program. If
> they dont, trying to peddle MYP experience into a DIP appointment at
> another IS doesnt have a lot of utility in recruiting.

PsyGuy,

While I respect that you seem to have a lot of experience, I have to disagree with you on your MYP argument. The MYP is by far the most complex and rich program on the IB continuum. I have taught PYP, MYP and I recently trained for the DIP program. Once you learn and teach MYP, you can master any IB program. During my DIP program training, there were teachers who have been teaching Language and Literature for years who were unable to explain conceptual understanding. How can a teacher build a syllabus in an IB program without mastering inquiry-based learning and conceptual understanding? The unit plans in the DIP program are pitiful compared to elaborate MYP unit plans.

MYP schools have a very tough time trying to adapt their local curriculum to the MYP subject guides. On the contrary, the DIP program is easily adaptable because isn't complex and can fit into any curriculum.

In Language and Literature, the DIP program is almost the exact same as the IGCSE. They - literary and non-literary texts. They write papers and have an oral at the end. It is very assessment oriented.

The CAS program is interesting but pales in comparison to MYP Service as Action and the Personal Project.

I say all of this as an experienced MYP teacher, an MYP coordinator and a recently trained program leader for site visits.

To the person asking, if you are interested in the IB, while you may have more opportunities in PYP or DP programs (more schools offer these programs), MYP is the most elaborate IB program. Once you are trained and teach in the MYP, the other programs are a breeze.
PsyGuy
Posts: 10789
Joined: Wed Oct 12, 2011 9:51 am
Location: Northern Europe

Reply

Post by PsyGuy »

@DHInt

No it isnt. While I agree that DIP is the least complex, PYP is the most complex. Its also not the most rich either. Once an IT has mastered one IB program its makes the others easier, but even then PYP is the most difficult to adapt to.

Finding participants in training programs with deficiencies is not difficult to do, thats why its called training.
It does not surprise me that you encountered some ITs who couldnt (or wouldnt, claiming ignorance is easy. Its called weaponized incompetence) articulate conceptual learning.

Its not too hard to design a lesson, a syllabus or a curriculum without understanding the product. Engineers build aerospace craft all the time that they cant fly, and China manufacturers all kinds of things from widgets to uber widgets without knowing how they work. Thats a glib response though when the reality is that ITs have an idea what they want to accomplish, determine the assessment to measure the degree of that accomplishment and then resource the content needed to obtain that accomplishment. That the IBO has a way to get there isnt the only path of getting there. Tell an IT to get there by inquiry and guided discovery and they will say okay and then squish in some peer groups and reflection and your there.

MYP ITs have a tough time adapting local curriculum into MYP because it requires integration of two curriculum, one of those, the MYP one isnt a full curriculum. Its 50 hrs. Its only about 3 months of guidance. Then another curriculum needs to take over or be woven in with the MYP for 6+ months.

DIP is easy to integrate because its a full program and its at SLL and all IE SLL curriculum are highly congruent. That doesnt make it less complex because theres a high degree of familiarity between the subject disciplines. This is why DIP seems easy coming from IGCSE, A* or AP. All of those curriculum have been designed to be highly correlated among one another.

Thats because your comparing two lemons to one lime. CAS is at least comparable to Service and Action if not superior, AND Extended Essay is comparable if not superior to Personal Project.

I get it, youre into the MYP, its your thing and you think your thing is the best of all the things. Your reinforcing the cultism of the IBO. Your MYP Koolaid isnt better than the rest of the IBOs Koolaid.

MYP is the most elaborate to obfuscate that it is and always has been a patched together curriculum so that ISs could obtain the IBWS classification and while its made improvements its still little more than supplemental material with a prescribed instructional delivery.
DHInt
Posts: 4
Joined: Sat Sep 24, 2022 12:08 pm

Re: IB Experience at Lower Pay Worthy Investment?

Post by DHInt »

I COMPLETELY disagree. I get it. You are always right. Everyone else is always wrong. Who cares about the experience of others.

All the best.
PsyGuy
Posts: 10789
Joined: Wed Oct 12, 2011 9:51 am
Location: Northern Europe

Comment

Post by PsyGuy »

@DHInt

Only data matters, and I am not gong to substitute your experience for my experience because those experiences differ.
secondplace
Posts: 191
Joined: Thu Apr 14, 2016 12:40 pm

Re: IB Experience at Lower Pay Worthy Investment?

Post by secondplace »

I'd argue that the course elements of the DP are easy to implement as they are a given syllabus.

CAS done well is great, but it's hard to do well.

MYP is harder because it's mostly framework and can be hard for parents to understand.

PYP is hard because it's all framework, but this also helps with implementation as there is a lot of latitude for what you do.

My data? My experience.

xx
cms989
Posts: 73
Joined: Tue Feb 24, 2015 6:07 pm

Re: IB Experience at Lower Pay Worthy Investment?

Post by cms989 »

25% pay cut all else being equal? I would not.

I definitely did get interviews due to my IB experience. But with MYP and PYP, most schools I have seen are not properly implementing the programs or even really trying. And a teacher is a teacher is a teacher, I'm sure I would have gotten interviews without the experience (look at you - you even got an offer at an IB school without any IB experience).

Having worked at several IB schools and gone through the evaluation process, I think it is really all smoke and mirrors. It is helpful to the extent that it gives teachers a conceptual framework to guide their instruction (if they so choose), but not something chase after in your career.
twofromusa
Posts: 31
Joined: Mon Jul 22, 2019 10:42 am

Re: IB Experience at Lower Pay Worthy Investment?

Post by twofromusa »

I appreciate everyone’s input. It does help.
PsyGuy
Posts: 10789
Joined: Wed Oct 12, 2011 9:51 am
Location: Northern Europe

Discussion

Post by PsyGuy »

@cms989

I could not agree with you anymore, in principal. Its the leaders and the recruiters though that want IB experience regardless of their rhyme and reason for it, even if they are deluded to their implementation of the program and lying to themselves about the value. The pre-screeners going through the line at fairs who dismiss you if you dont have x years of IB experience, and the notations on position vacancies requiring previous IB experience as a requirement and those without need not apply are testimony to that alone.
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