Native Vnese going back to VN to work

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limitless_te
Posts: 13
Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2022 6:33 pm

Native Vnese going back to VN to work

Post by limitless_te »

Hi all,

Don't know if there's any Vietnamese teachers here trained in Australia?

I am a native Vnese secondary teacher who's been living in Melbourne, Australia for 10 years (managed to get the citizenship this year). I have a Master of Teaching from University of Melbourne (6th in world ranking), Bachelor in Accounting and a teaching license. I've been teaching Accounting, Business Management, Economics and Legal Studies for 3 years. The curriculum is VCE (Victorian certificate of Education), which is a hybrid of IB and ISGCE - the most popular curriculums in international schools in VN. I am in the process of achieving IGCSE certificates in Business Studies in October.

I am thinking to go back to VN to work at international schools for a while, maybe 2-3 years and see how it goes. I'm wondering if my academic background and experience look good enough in the recruiters?

I believe my strongest selling point is I have the best of both worlds: I understand both Asian and Western cultures, and I'm fluent in both languages. However, some may argue that being Vnese might be a disadvantage and the school might try to treat me as local, hence local pay and without expat package (even if I enter VN by Auz pp). What do you think?

Just to share some thoughts. I'm 30, divorced, no kids and am having a stable job at an independent school in Melbourne. Basically my life here in Melbourne is already settled, so the thought of going back to VN is very alienate to me. I've been calculating my whole life, in every single decision so that I can be where I am right now. It's just after the divorce, I realize I've never done anything that doesn't warrant a guaranteed success, or at least high chance of it. So I want to try something 'recklessly' once in my life and see where life takes me. My only concern is, I know I want to settle down in Australia (at least for now). Do you think it'd be a waste of time if I leave everything I've achieved here to go back to VN, work for 3 years and go back to Australia starting from scratch at the age of 33? Would that be too late? My whole family and friends are in VN so I know I'll have a lot of support when I go back there, but the thought of settling down at a new country again at the age of 33-35 makes me shudder. Am I thinking too much again?

Very much appreciated your input.
sciteach
Posts: 258
Joined: Sat Dec 13, 2014 7:49 am

Re: Native Vnese going back to VN to work

Post by sciteach »

This post is a bit more multi faceted than it currently looks.

I'll deal with the elephant in the room to begin with.

There are two main types of schools in SE Asia. One is a true international school which deals mainly with expat kids and is not for profit. The others range from teaching local kids to having a mix of expat and local students. These schools tend to be for profit.

The first type of school is what I'd suggest - but your current experience is not highly regarded enough to potentially get into the final rounds of interviews. Most of these schools are IB/AP and normally want teachers WITH EXPERIENCE in Yr 11/12 who have taken them through the two hole years.

You mentioned that the VCE is similar to the IB = but it's not. Your current teaching methods are not going to break down the doors with your current experience. The same would be the polar opposite in Melbourne at present. Have a good look at which subjects you can teach in the IB, AP or A levels.

The second type of school may be more likely to hire you - but is also more likely to screw you over due to having dual nationality. I've seen this happen first hand in another asian country (person was local but also had NZ passport) and then forced him onto a local contract (he quickly left and was snapped up in another country).

Others may disagree - but I think that another country (such as Singapore or Thailand) might be a good opportunity. I basically did the same as you are contemplating (was late 20's and went overseas) and spend over a decade gallivanting the world. Note that it's common to make new friendship groups at schools overseas. Another word of warning - don't mention which uni you went to at real international schools unless it's asked as it will automatically give a roll of the eyes. What you can do "after graduation" is normally what is looked at. For profit schools have in the past put which degrees and universities I've worked at on their website as a "look at what we employ" to gain notoriety.

One thing I don't really get still is how some countries have parents which are adverse to having a "local" teach their kid but are happy for some run of the mill foreigner to do it instead.

If you have Australian Citizenship then you are Australian - and use that in other countries and with recruiters. Your main problem at the moment is that the international school year starts in July/August - just when Semester 1 finishes in Victoria. That means the major recruiting season is already gone. Targeting the 2023 school year and joining an agency such as Search Associates (Nick Kendall who is based in Australia is helpful) and there is also a job fair in Jan based in Melbourne.

So to put it simply - you are definitely employable but don't expect Vietnam's (or the world's) best schools to employ you straight away. You can still apply and see what happens. I'd honestly stay away from the cluster truck of China at the moment where many teachers have left and they can't hire enough teachers who are willing to go into the country.

I will also say that you will still be employable coming back to Victoria - but the longer you are away the more difficult it will be to get a job at a school you might be at currently.

There is a lot more I'd like to say - but I also like my anonymity as the teaching world is really small.
limitless_te
Posts: 13
Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2022 6:33 pm

Re: Native Vnese going back to VN to work

Post by limitless_te »

Hi,

Thanks for your response.

I've been teaching year 10 to 12 for 3 years now, and only at those levels.

Do you think certificates in IB and IGCSE (which I have applied) would help with my profile?
sciteach
Posts: 258
Joined: Sat Dec 13, 2014 7:49 am

Re: Native Vnese going back to VN to work

Post by sciteach »

I can't talk too much about igcse (I've only taught this for 1 year) - but the IB normally consists of completing a workshop over a few weeks online that is normally paid for by the school. It's more about having experience teaching the IB in Yr 11/12 which is a big selling point. Being able to say "my students scored ####" is a big selling point.
PsyGuy
Posts: 10789
Joined: Wed Oct 12, 2011 9:51 am
Location: Northern Europe

Response

Post by PsyGuy »

Uni. Melbourne isnt an IE global ivy, its not going to impress recruiters or leaders in IE unless they are fellow alums. If they arent nobody cares, you just have a degree.

I assume this means you have full registration in AUS as a professional edu?

The VCE curriculum and the corresponding certificate are NOT equivalent to IB, IGCSE, A* or AP. Not even close.
The IGCSE certificates dont have much utility in marketability and neither do the IB certificates. It saves an IS a little coin but the ISs youd be interested in will spend that coin for an IT they want.

What you describe as having the best of both worlds, isnt really a strength. They dont care that you understand both cultures. It makes youre life easier and a bit less strain on the office staff since you presumably speak Vietnamese. Those arent really strengths for the IS unless your teaching Vietnamese.

I disagree with @sciteach for-profit ISs tend to be poorer experiences than non-profits but there are a few for-profits that are ran well, but more importantly there are a lot of non-profit ISs run as for-profit, or despite being non-profit are still poor ISs. Most of the third tier is non-profit simply because so many ISs are non-profits.

In IE there are three tiers of ISs first tier ISs are at the top and are very very small percentage of ISs. below that you have the second tier its larger but still a small percentage below that you have the third tier and its very large, so much so it gets divided into a top, bottom and sometimes a middle.

In VN there is 1 tier one IS, maybe a second, below that there is a handful of second tier ISs and below that a fairly large third tier, further some of the WORST ISs in the world are in VN. I dont see the 1 first tier IS being interested in you, youre not demographically what they are looking for. The second tier ISs in VN arent beneath giving a native Vietnamese a LH (local) contract even with an AUS passport. This is just going to be even more likely at a third tier IS.

There are three components to an ITs resume what they can teach (degrees, qualifications, credentials, certificates, etc.), what an IT has taught (experience, scores, etc.) and special skills. of those experience is king and showing youve gotten your students X scores has very high utility in terms of marketability.

You can do anything for about a year and not lose utility in marketability. That said DSs and most DEs really dont care and arent impressed if you worked in IE. In some aspects they see you distanced and detached from current best practices in SPED/SEN/LD, behavior management, etc.

The bigger your job search the more benefit an agency such as SA is, youre target is very narrow. Youre just better off saving the coin and applying to the few ISs in VN you would be willing to work.

Parents are paying for white western faces. if they wanted locals teaching their kids why spend all the coin and just send them to local DSs.
National
Posts: 128
Joined: Sun Jan 20, 2013 3:00 am

Re: Native Vnese going back to VN to work

Post by National »

I work at one of the tier one schools in Vietnam and they would hire you as an international hire and would make no attempt to shift you to a local salary. We also have quite a few Viet Kieu who work at our school. I think the lower tier schools might try to treat you unfairly, but the top few would be ok. While you’re not super competitive, you might get hired by these schools. I’ve seen less experienced teachers than you hired in the top three schools.

As others have said, the lower tier schools in Vietnam are not great and they will likely use your Vietnamese links against you for hiring and pay.
limitless_te
Posts: 13
Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2022 6:33 pm

Re: Native Vnese going back to VN to work

Post by limitless_te »

National wrote:
> I work at one of the tier one schools in Vietnam and they would hire you as
> an international hire and would make no attempt to shift you to a local
> salary. We also have quite a few Viet Kieu who work at our school. I think
> the lower tier schools might try to treat you unfairly, but the top few
> would be ok. While you’re not super competitive, you might get hired by
> these schools. I’ve seen less experienced teachers than you hired in the
> top three schools.
>
> As others have said, the lower tier schools in Vietnam are not great and
> they will likely use your Vietnamese links against you for hiring and pay.

Hi National,

Any chance I can contact you privately to ask for more info?

I'm very keen on getting hired by those schools and really need some tips to stand out among the candidates, given what I already might not be as impressive.

I'd understand if you want to stay anonymous though.
sciteach
Posts: 258
Joined: Sat Dec 13, 2014 7:49 am

Re: Native Vnese going back to VN to work

Post by sciteach »

Just some things to consider.

(1) The main recruiting season I'd suggest would be August 2023. Most of the better schools will advertise between November 2022 an March 2023.

(2) The paid membership forum has a PM function. The other member also needs to be a paid member to access this feature.

(3) You are employable - but do remember that there might only be 3-8 positions that you can teach in Vietnam at these high end schools. There was many more positions available the upcoming school year in Vietnam due to their last extended lockdown which was meant to be quite harsh. The other poster will be able to talk about that more than I. Most jobs are for 2 years - so there may be less movement next year as I'd expect things to be improving and people at least finishing their first contract.

At least there are now 3 airlines to Hanoi/HCMC from Melbourne now (Bamboo, Vietnam and Jetstar).

Through friends that I have that work at the better schools in Vietnam - the other posters comment on hiring locals with international experience and treating them will seems to be the truth.
limitless_te
Posts: 13
Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2022 6:33 pm

Re: Native Vnese going back to VN to work

Post by limitless_te »

Hi sciteach,

can you kindly elaborate on your last point, "the other posters comment on hiring locals with international experience and treating them will seems to be the truth." please?
sciteach
Posts: 258
Joined: Sat Dec 13, 2014 7:49 am

Re: Native Vnese going back to VN to work

Post by sciteach »

I agree with them

Editing NOTE - I changed him to them as I don't know who the original poster was)....
PsyGuy
Posts: 10789
Joined: Wed Oct 12, 2011 9:51 am
Location: Northern Europe

Discussion

Post by PsyGuy »

@limitless_te

There is only 1 maybe 2 first tier ISs in VN, and its true they would likely treat the LW as an OSH. Its unlikely the second tier ISs would treat you as an LH but its in the realm of probability.
The 1 first tier IS doesnt have a substantial VN staff demographic.

If you were a different IT with a different subject there would be more advantageous metrics. Economics is the hardest to fill social studies course, but that doesnt make it ICT, hard science or maths. There are certainly lower tier ISs that would be interested in you but the 1 maybe 2 first tier ISs dont usually have to make those compromises. They can get western looking westerners with actual IE SLL experience. With 3 years of experience your resume is on the lite side.
The general consensus for entry into IE is 2 yers post credentialing experience. You have 3 years, and while you exceed the minimum youre still very much on the early career side. Ive provided the pass to look at below, but it works best when compared to the requirements of an actual vacancy. You have 1.5pts for your experience, 1pt for the Masters, maybe (probably) .5pt as a logistical hire. That gives you a score of 3ish, still in the entry level class. Even if you were a career class IT a first tier IS is a reach, and again youre not the demographic they are exactly looking for, and which first tier ISs even those in VN, dont have to settle on.

PMs are disabled on this forum, they are active in the member forum. You can however access your user control panel, select the profile tab, you will then find a number of text entry fields which you can modify to include an email address or other contact information, and then post in the forum for a member to contact you by noting the contact information in your profile. This is far more preferential than including an email directly in the forum, as you can later remove the contact information from your profile. The forum posts are also public and indexed by various web crawler bots.

The main recruiting season starts in early November/late October with early recruiting. Peak recruiting starts in early January and lasts until early/mid February.

PASS (PsyGuy Applicant Scoring System):
1) 1 pt / 2 years Experience (Max 10 Years)
2) 1 pt - Advance Degree (Masters)
3) 1 pt - Cross Certified (Must be schedule-able)
4) 1 pt - Curriculum Experience (IB, AP, IGCSE)
5) 1 pt - Logistical Hire (Single +.5 pt, Couple +1 pt)
6) .5 pt - Previous International School Experience (standard 2 year contract)
7) .5 pt - Leadership Experience/Role (+.25 HOD, +.5 Coordinator)
8) .5 pt - Extra Curricular (Must be schedule-able)
9) .25 pt - Special Populations (Must be qualified)
10) .25 pt - Special Skill Set (Must be documentable AND marketable)

IT CLASSES:
1) INTERN ITs have a score around 0
2) ENTRY ITs have a score around 2
3) CAREER ITs have a score around 4
4) PROFESSIONAL ITs have a score around 6
5) MASTER ITs have a score around 8
fred173
Posts: 8
Joined: Thu Jul 08, 2021 5:59 am

Re: Native Vnese going back to VN to work

Post by fred173 »

Someone above mentions that recruitment cycles might not fit - don't worry about this.

I have seen this from both sides. I have finished a Southern Hemisphere contract and, while expecting to have to wait until August to begin work again, I was appointed for a Feb start, to one of the best posts I've ever had, because a vacancy came up at a time when most N Hem teachers were unavaiable. Fewer posts come up at this time, but there's less competition as well.

I've also had, in my department, a teacher appointed for the S hemisphere, who wasn't available to start until after Christmas, and the school decided to appoint a temporary teacher for the interim.

Good luck to you, I hope it works out.
PsyGuy
Posts: 10789
Joined: Wed Oct 12, 2011 9:51 am
Location: Northern Europe

Comment

Post by PsyGuy »

Its MUCH, MUCH fewer posts compared to the regular recruitment cycle.
Heliotrope
Posts: 1167
Joined: Sun May 13, 2018 1:48 am

Re: Native Vnese going back to VN to work

Post by Heliotrope »

It's all about the ratio vacancies vs. jobseekers.
Not sure if it'll be better than during the regular recruiting cycle, likely it will not. So yes, there will be jobs, but there will be other teachers looking to get those jobs.
It might be that there will be less competition from other Southern hemisphere domestic teachers looking to go abroad, as during turbulent times they will be less likely to uproot and go international, so that might work in your favor. Being very picky about location will obviously not make it easier though.
Good luck!
limitless_te
Posts: 13
Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2022 6:33 pm

Re: Native Vnese going back to VN to work

Post by limitless_te »

Thank you so much guys :) A lot of useful information here :D
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