Years of IB Experience for Top Tier Schools

PsyGuy
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Post by PsyGuy »

@Coimbra

No first tier anywhere cant demand 4 years IB and 10 overall.

The inflection points of IT improvement in their practice are at 1, 2, 4, and 8 years. Fit is always the most crucial factor in IT selection, but to get to selection you have to get passed screening first.
You two ITs with similar resumes can be very different individuals but the vast majority of those are again fit, and by fit they mean is leadership going to get along with this person, and are the rest of faculty going to get along with this person. Which really means fit is likability.

Oh its way more bloat than 10%, its your 10% disagreement is not a universal 10% disagreement. Really the 1st tier is very small, much smaller than @Heliotrope. A lot of the bloat comes from second tier ISs and floater third tier ISs.
Of course you think its great, youre in leadership and the @Heliotrope magnifies the first tier larger than it really is.

Thats the classic leader criticism, you cant know the tier of an IS until youve taken some excruciatingly long time to know it, and thats just bunk. You dont need a lot of ana1ysis, experience or suffering for years to know a poo IS when you find it.
Coimbra
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Re: Reply

Post by Coimbra »

Yes they can, they all get lots of applications and speaking from experience: 4+ years of IB and 10+ years overall on your CV is not that uncommon.
Yes fit is very important, that was my point: even if two CVs are the same the level of fit will likely differ.
You can think the tier 1 is smaller than the list but I do not think it's off by much. No harm in disagreeing there.
Seems you have different opinions on lots of things and that is fine. Have a good week.
PsyGuy
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Post by PsyGuy »

@Coimbra

No they dont. A first tier IS in France may get around 1000, in Japan about half that. A first tier IS in Africa (not Egypt, Johannesburg or Capetown) the ME (thats not a particular "oil" IS) and the LCSA maybe 10-20.

Its off by a lot for @Heliotrope. There is a lot of bloat.
Know36More
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Re: Years of IB Experience for Top Tier Schools

Post by Know36More »

Apologies im very new to this. How do you identify tier 1 schools? I'm 6 months into my new teaching role internationally
PsyGuy
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Replt

Post by PsyGuy »

@Know36More

My standard treatise on tiers:

There is no entirely objective definition of Tier 1, Tier 2, or Tier 3, and as such there is no "master list" of who is in which list except for tier 1, and to that end there is disagreement. The greatest consensus is found in the middle of the tiers, and the least in the margins, but there would still be a lot of disagreement. As a community we tend to achieve consensus on the top and the bottom of the tiers. Our biggest disagreement is the margins in-between and the middle. Though if youre on the international school circuit long enough you get a feel for which schools are at which tier. School quality also has a lot to do with where you are a tier 2 school in Hong Kong, might be a tier 1 school where it in mainland China, but tier classification is regionally restricted.

Its not all subjective, but there are formalized 'definitions' of Tier 1, Tier 2, and Tier 3, There are several models generally applied to dividing of the tiers, going forward with the teacher model:
Elite Tier: Top schools in the first tier usually 1-2 schools.
1st Tier: The top 5%, usually less.
2nd Tier: About 80%-95%
3rd Tier: Bottom 80%
Upper tier is typically the elite, first tier and some portion of the second tier. Lower tier is the third tier and some portion of the second tier.
In general when teachers describe a tier 1, etc school from one another it comes down to

1) Compensation package.
2) Work environment.

Historically the compensation package is the priority, not because of greed or anything, but because its easy to quantify. If youre in Brazil, 30K is better then 28K. Schools that pay more for a given region tend to have more stable finances (a sign of longevity, given enrollment, and reputation), and have larger endowments, meaning they have been around long enough to develop efficiency and have well planed capitol projects. Better schools can charge more in fees, and be more selective in their admissions. This creates more "coin" on hand for salaries and benefits.

COMPENSATION:

Typically includes (in this order of importance/priority:

1) Salary (based on number of contract or teaching hours per week)
2) Housing (including utility costs)
3) Tuition (If you have kids. In addition if you have a non teaching spouse, how easy is it for them to find a job)
4) Relocation (Including Airfare, moving, and settling in allowances).
5) Insurance (Mostly how good the medical is)
6) Retirement (Including end of year bonuses).

WORK ENVIRONMENT:

Working conditions is the far more subjective of the two. This doesn't mean everyone gets their own definition, you can be unhappy at a tier 1 IS its still a tier 1 IS, you can love a tier 3 IS, its still a tier 3 IS. They include as a general principal (and these get more "fuzzy" the lower I go):

1) Staff/Faculty/Parents: How qualified are your co teachers? Do they know what they are doing? Do the aids, secretaries try and help you? Is the PTA crazy helicopter parents? Are the parents really the ones running the school?

2) Admins Management Style: Biggest reason for a school to go down hill. Does the admin back the teachers? Are they just a spokesperson for the owners? Do they yield to parent pressure? Do they value faculty input? Do they care?

3) Organization: Does the front/back office run efficiently? Do you get reimbursed in a timely fashion? Are salaries paid on time? Is the school relationship with the local immigration bureau good, can they process visas, permits, etc quickly?

4) Resources: Do you have a projector? Access to computers, internet? Can you make copies when you need too. What about textbooks, are they old and out dated, do teachers even use them? Whats the library look like? Whats the cafeteria look like (do they feed the teacher lunch?) Do you have a classroom/department budget, or do you have to ask for everything?

5) Academics: Do they have a curriculum? Do they use the curriculum? Does the department share a common curriculum or does everybody teach what they know and prefer? What are the assessment/grading policies and procedures?

6) Community: Are the people nice, friendly, helpful? What's there too do in the area? Is it safe? Clean? Is transportation easily accessible? Availability of shopping/groceries? Medical Care? This could be a long one....

JOB SEARCH:

1st tier schools are typically non-profit, private prepatory schools that focus on an international student body. They are very westernized, and would be very similar to a private school in western cultures.

2nd tier schools are private non-profits or for profits that act like non-profits (mostly). They are predominately domestic students, who are affluent. They are equivalent to a "good" public school in a western culture.

3rd tier schools are for non-profits that act like for profits or for profit schools that are run as business. The purpose is to make/generate revenue, and provide the owner with some level of prestige and status. Education is just the product, the students parents just the consumers.

Most 3rd tier schools advertise on TIE Online, Joy Jobs, and with SEARCH. You can also find them on Daves ESL Cafe (They advertise everywhere, except the "selective" recruitment agencies, such as ISS)

Tier 3 schools either pay very well because the only reason someone would work there is the money, or they pay enough to get by. Most of the ISs in china, africa, or the middle east are third tier There are some very "beautiful" schools that Dante could use to deepen the levels of hades a bit, and the only reason they have faculty is because 1) The coin, 2) Desperate teachers who cant do any better. Of course one issue that I see common with Tier 3 schools is related to "safety" either the regional culture is very very rigid, with serious consequences for what you might consider "minor rule infractions" or the region/area could become quickly hostile and dangerous...

Your typical "ESL School" is right around the border of tier 3.

"Elite" (also called prestige or premier) schools are a subset of tier 1 schools. An "elite" or "premiere" international school is simply the top (or contested top) tier one school in a region (or city). What differentiates them is they usually have the best reputation in an area as "THE" school, and you see that in a compensation package that is substantially higher then the other tier one schools in the area, as well as in their staff support, resources, and facilities. Many of the elite tier Issues are embassy ISs.
Elite (also called premier) doesnt equal easy. Elite schools typically expect a lot from their teachers. Some teachers thrive in that environment, some dont.
Why a separate category? well there is typically a substantial and significant increase in work and compensation between the "elite" school and the other tier one schools.

Tier status is only comparable to other schools within a region. Local economies, costs of living, cultural differences make global comparisons unhelpful. For example; most european schools dont provide housing, and taxes are high so even though salaries would rival many that you would find in a place like China, the savings potential and lifestyle you can live are very different (and often better in asia).

Is there a lower level, some contributors throw tier 4, and lower levels around, but i have to think that is really just an individual adding insult to injury when they call a particular school a "tier 4" school.
Thames Pirate
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Re: Years of IB Experience for Top Tier Schools

Post by Thames Pirate »

Just to be clear, there are not actually formalised definitions or percentages for Top Tier. "Elite" is a PsyGuy term. The top tier schools are those which, over time, have been known to pay well / have good packages, offer career opportunities, require hard work but still allow a good work-life balance, offer good working conditions, are truly international. If that sounds vague, it's because it is. Individual preferences may vary. Also, schools fluctuate over time. Tier 1s tend to be consistently considered the best, and of course there is disagreement as to what the comparison is, too--"the best" compared to other schools? Schools within a region? By pay? Programming? Most Tier 1 schools would have thriving programs across a range of areas, but having thriving programming generally doesn't mean a school is Tier 1. Schools in which you teach and go home are different from schools in which you are expected to work 10 hour days and show up for performance nights with great regularity. So there is no single definition.

The main school in Dhaka, for example, is by all accounts a neat place--very collegial, organised, lots to offer--but you are living in Dhaka, which isn't for everyone! Frankfurt is another example where the main school ticks all the boxes except savings potential, which by virtue of being in Europe, is limited; it stacks up very well against other ISs in Europe, but you can't save the way you would at most big Asian schools. The top ISs in Africa often only show up if the list is regional. A great school might not make the list because it is for-profit or full of mostly local students.

Finally, there are personal considerations that make small, relatively unknown schools Tier 1 in most regards without their names ever showing up on anyone's radar. A small city might have a school that offers a smaller pay package than the main school in the capital, but the cost of living is so much lower that it actually allows for more savings. It might not have the major programming, but it is sufficient and allows for more independence and freedom in teaching. It might not have the prestige, but it has the lifestyle. It doesn't have the infrastructure, but it has solid, consistent, and effective leadership. So one man's Tier 1 is another man's horror show and vice versa.

But for the purposes of this type of forum or context, there are schools that are generally considered Tier 1. You can find lists and discussions of individual schools on the paid side.

Tier 2 are generally those which are generally truly international, very good, but maybe have had some systemic problems, are newer and lack the prestige, or simply don't pay as much. They are solid schools, often scratching at being listed or on-again-off-again on the list of Tier 1s or simply unable to measure up to the competitor in the same city. Or maybe they are in locations that tend to be less desirable.

Tier 3s are often ISs in name only or real horror shows. But many of them are also only too small, too local, or too poor to make the higher tiers and can be great places to work depending on an individual's needs and wants.

There is no master list. There is no agreed upon definition. There is no Tier 4 and no Elite Tier. There is a lot of subjectivity. And therefore there are no set hiring criteria or even measurable trends. But there are schools which are generally known to be "top," and of course these tend to require a bit more and be harder to get into, especially in competitive subjects. That's all.
PsyGuy
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Discussion

Post by PsyGuy »

There are absolutely formalized criteria, and there are elite tier ISs. That @Thames Pirate states there isnt is just something @Thames Pirate claims. The percentages differ depending on the model, the teacher model is generally as follows:
1st Tier: The top 5%, usually less.
2nd Tier: About 80%-95%
3rd Tier: Bottom 80%
@Thames Pirate has a list of criteria that arent accurate. there are plenty of tier 1 ISs that dont offer a good work life balance for example they are still tier 1 ISs. Advancement, hard/easy work arent necessary, among others. Programing doesnt matter much. Africa has 1st tier ISs (as well as 2nd, and 3rd) just as other regions do. A for profit IS can be a first tier IS, so can an IS with a large portion of local host national students.
Its more vague the way @Thames Pirate states it but its not that complicated in actuality.
The criteria however are highly formalized, there is not an 'everyone has their own definition'

Individual preferences arent a factor. You can be miserable at a tier 1 IS its still a tier 1 IS. You can be blissfully content at a tier 3 IS, its still a tier 3 IS.

ISs do fluctuate but the barriers between tiers are very resistant to change. The first tier ISs as a group generally stay about the same in size and members. It takes an incredible amount of resources for an IS to break into the first tier and an equally great drop in resources to fall out of the first tier.

Tier 1 ISs are considered the highest and occupy a very small number of ISs. Comparisons are between ISs within the same region. As tier status is regionally restricted. Dhaka may be whatever it is, as any region but every region has ISs in the 1s2, 2nd, 3rd tier (assuming it has enough ISs).
Savings potential likewise is also range restricted by region. Within a given region there will be a range of reasonable savings potential. If that range isnt suitable for you, you need a different region, not a different tier.

There arent personal considerations. Again, there is no 'everyone has their own definition'. @Thames Pirate has this position that there are hidden gems and off the beaten path ISs, that can have many attributes similar to tier 1 ISs. There are such schools but they are more DSs than ISs, and they are 'off circuit'.
Savings isnt the sole defining factor in tier classification. There are many ISs that have very poor savings potential, but they are in regions characterized by poor savings potential, those regions still have tier 1 ISs.

There are tier 1 lists on the members forum, but many of them arent accurate. The @Heliotrope list for example is very bloated and is more a list of non-tier 3 ISs than a tier 1 IS list. The number of tier 1 ISs is a very small number in a particular region.

1st tier schools are typically non-profit, private prepatory schools that focus on an international student body. They are very westernized, and would be very similar to a private school in western cultures.

2nd tier schools are private non-profits or for profits that act like non-profits (mostly). They are predominately domestic students, who are affluent. They are equivalent to a "good" public school in a western culture. They generally arent very international in student composition. A lot of the tier 2 is comprised of IB ISs (not that being IB makes you tier 2, there are plenty of tier 3 ISs). Tier 2 ISs dont hover or shuffle between tier 1 and tier 2. The barriers between tiers are much more resilient and has to have continuity. An Is doesnt tip into tier 1 for a year and then fall back to tier 2 the next.

3rd tier schools are for non-profits that act like for profits or for profit schools that are run as business. The purpose is to make/generate revenue, and provide the owner with some level of prestige and status. Education is just the product, the students parents just the consumers. The third tier is really large, and in encompasses a lot of varying quality between ISs. There are 'floater' third tier ISs that look really similar to tier 2 ISs but miss the mark on a factor or two. Then you have the bottom tier 3 ISs that are a wreck or on the track to being a wreck of an IS. They can be very happy places to work, it doesnt change that they are still tier 3 ISs.

There is an accurate tier 1 Master list. There are very formalized criteria. There isnt really a tier 4 (just some ITs with a lot of anger and frustration who need to add insult to injury). Tier status is far more objective and quantifiable than it is subjective and abstract.

In summary @Thames Pirate is one of those contributors who doesnt really believe in tiers and and attempts to defend that position by arguing that tiers exist differently in each persons mind, so there are no tiers. Thats not true of course we know better. Just as we know that all students are special, talented, and gifted in their own way is just ego soothing language. There are real performance and evaluation criteria, standards and rankings to classify student performance and achievement just as their are tiers for ISs.
Thames Pirate
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Re: Years of IB Experience for Top Tier Schools

Post by Thames Pirate »

Yes, yes. Repeat your claims with no evidence, no backing, and while putting words into another's mouth (keyboard?). Insult me. Be wordier. Attack Heliotrope while you are at it.

Rinse, repeat. Another day on ISR.

For what it's worth to the person who asked: PsyGuy has codified his criteria and calls them "formalized criteria", so he isn't wrong when he says they exist. If that is what you are wanting, you are free to use his definitions. There is no agreed-upon definition, no agreed upon criteria, and only a handful of widely agreed upon schools--and even those often have someone who argues against their inclusion. Any "master list" is a list he keeps and is not stored in some vault other than his head. So do with the information what you will. Feel free to check out the thread on the member forum to see the discussions in action and then check out the individual schools to see what you think they have in common.
Heliotrope
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Re: Years of IB Experience for Top Tier Schools

Post by Heliotrope »

Indeed, @Thames Pirate is correct: there are no official criteria.
Also, conveniently, he has never posted these 'formalized criteria' someone can actually use to determine if a school is tier 1. At most it's what he posted just here, which will not allow you to do that.

I've never seen any criteria posted anywhere by anyone for that matter, and no teacher I know uses these supposed formalized (yet somehow unfindable) criteria to come up with a tier designation.
How do they come up with a tier designation for any given school then?
It is done by collecting rumors ("a friend of my colleague worked there and really liked it"), various lists of what other people think are tier 1s, school reviews, leadership reviews, reputation, some hard data that is available like salary and benefit figures (often from Search), and/or a healthy dose of 'gut feeling'. Sometimes it's just two or three of these, and the research stops. People then look at what they value most in a school (salary, work-life balance, location) and assign a tier. "I can save around 20K there, Vincent said the leadership treated him fairly when he was there, 90% of the students is international - those are all things I'm looking for, so it sounds like tier 1 to me).
People's priorities often overlap (savings potential is very important to most), and lots of people read the same reviews, etc., so the various tier 1 list have a lot of overlap. Therefore lots of schools will be seen as tier 1 (rightfully or wrongly) by and for most teachers, while others will have other schools on their tier 1 list.

It's because of all this that my 'bloated' list is not a list of schools that are tier 1. It's merely a list of schools that are often mentioned by other teachers as being tier 1.

PsyGuy is welcome to post his own list of the schools you consider tier 1 here. Just omit the school names (since we can't post those on here) and just mention country & city and number of tier 1 schools in that location - most if not all on this forum will be able to figure out which schools you'd be referring to. That way we can get your perspective as well.
PsyGuy
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Discussion

Post by PsyGuy »

Yes, as opposed to the @Thames Pirate continued TPF, whose premise is that tiers are an illusion. @Thames Pirate is one of those leadership cheerleaders who dont believe in tiers, so that all ISs can claim they are 'a top tier IS', and does that by claiming tiers exist differently, independently and uniquely in the mind of each individual. Tiers are not a delusion nor are they illusory.

Yes, more @Thames Pirate TPF, another day on ISR.

There are absolutely formalized definitions, standards, factors, and criteria, ones that have been empirically examined.

Indeed, @Thames Pirate is unequivocally wrong. There are absolutely formalized criteria. @Heliotrope is part of that leader cheerleader group like @Thames Pirate that unless some group of leaders, or agency/organization of consultants provides an publishes it cant be official.

It actually does allow you to do that.
No, SA provides 2 salary points, and compensation data comes from salary tables and scales.
It is not an individual preference. An IT that values savings doesnt shift the ISs into different tiers. A 1st tier IS with poor savings is still a 1st tier IS. Sounding like tier 1 to @Heliotrope doesnt make the IS a tier 1 IS. This IS may be a tier 3 IS that @Heliotrope would just happen to be happy at, its still a tier 3 IS.
Heliotrope
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Re: Discussion

Post by Heliotrope »

PsyGuy wrote:
> Yes, as opposed to the @Thames Pirate continued TPF, whose premise is that
> tiers are an illusion. @Thames Pirate is one of those leadership
> cheerleaders who dont believe in tiers, so that all ISs can claim they are
> 'a top tier IS', and does that by claiming tiers exist differently,
> independently and uniquely in the mind of each individual. Tiers are not a
> delusion nor are they illusory.

So... you say @Thames Pirate says tiers are an illusion (she doesn't btw, she just points out they're personal, not official), so schools can say they're NOT an illusion?


> Indeed, @Thames Pirate is unequivocally wrong. There are absolutely
> formalized criteria. @Heliotrope is part of that leader cheerleader group
> like @Thames Pirate that unless some group of leaders, or
> agency/organization of consultants provides an publishes it cant be
> official.

I'm no one's cheerleader. You're the one who is of the opinion that leadership is always bad. I'm of the opinion that if a cross-section of the teachers on this forum would be promoted to those leadership positions, they would likely make pretty much the same choices as current leadership. Amongst teachers and admins alike there are a lot of good people who do their best and have the best of the school in mind, and a few selfish pricks who lack empathy. Just because I'm a teacher I'm not automatically against all of leadership, just against bad leadership.


> It actually does allow you to do that.

How then?
All you do is list some factors that can be used to judge a school by. Nothing is quantified, I see no numbers, ways to measure, how to weigh them. You're basically saying: "Is the money good?" and "Is the school good?". It's not telling me what the threshold is for tier 1 (what and how criteria need to be met). So no, you can't unequivocally determine if a school is tier 1 using what you posted here, that is assuming someone would accept your claim that there are actual formalized (but not official) criteria.
Also interested to know how you got by these 'formalized criteria'. Or do you consider yourself the authority that decides these?
I'm not saying the 'criteria' you list aren't helpful when researching a school btw.


> Sounding like tier 1 to @Heliotrope doesnt make the IS a tier
> 1 IS.

Yep, it does make it tier 1 for me.


> This IS may be a tier 3 IS that @Heliotrope would just happen to be
> happy at, its still a tier 3 IS.

As I've said before, the school I'm at currently is one you've once described as tier 1. Luckily it's tier 1 for me as well, but for some teachers with different priorities it wouldn't be tier 1. I have been happy at a tier 3 btw, but I could still clearly see where the school could have made changes that would have made it a better working experience for me, so me being happy didn't make it a tier 1 for me.


Let's just accept that different people use the tier system differently.
Some, including myself, use it as a way to rank schools into different categories (3 or 4) where the higher the tier (or lower, depending on how you look at it), the more a school meets their criteria of what they think is a good school for them to work at. The fact that most people's priorities overlap makes it that a lot of schools are on a lot of individual tier 1 lists (hence why I made the list).
Others, like you, might think that tiers are not determined by someone's personal priorities, but somehow universally quantifiable.
PsyGuy
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Reply

Post by PsyGuy »

@Heliotrope

Yes, @Thames Pirate does state they are illusion thats what all in your head means. Tiers arent personal.

You are absolutely a cheerleader AND an apologist. Ive never stated all leaders are bad.
Im sure those ITs turned leaders would do the same thing, something to do with power and corruption.
The volume of leaders and ISs profiled on this site would disagree with you. Its not a "few", its a far, far, far greater quantity than a few.

Do your own research. This isnt a training workshop or professional development seminar.

You wrote "At most it's what he posted just here, which will not allow you to do that." to which I replied "It actually does allow you to do that.". I never claimed that absent the coefficients and factor values it would allow one to do it as well, but it absolutely has efficacy and utility. I dont owe you the formula, youre just @Heliotrope, which equates to ~meh~

Tiers arent personal. The opinion of @Heliotrope doesnt shift the tier metric.
Those other ITs opinions dont matter. They can be unhappy at your (assumed) tier 1 IS, but its still a tier 1 IS.

No, you can use a hammer for a door wedge, to balance an uneven table, etc. its still a hammer. The tier system is not a belief system.
Heliotrope
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Re: Years of IB Experience for Top Tier Schools

Post by Heliotrope »

"Do your own research", a @PsyGuy classic for when he's backed himself into a corner.
I did expect you to use it in this response (you're wonderfully predictable, as am I probably), but it's still good.
PsyGuy
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Comment

Post by PsyGuy »

No, its a classic response to the @Heliotrope believes theyre entitled to something or thinks I have to do something, but I knew you were going to resort to that position.
Heliotrope
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Re: Comment

Post by Heliotrope »

And another predictable reply that usually follows or accompanies your previous one.

I just realized I'd previously said I'd stop replying to this topic, so I'll try again.
Have a great day, and apologies to the OP, but I think you got your answer already before we (@PsyGuy and I) let this spiral out of control. I'm sure @shadowjack got to finish his bag of popcorn after all.
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