Years of IB Experience for Top Tier Schools

popgirl
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Joined: Fri Jan 21, 2022 1:02 pm

Re: Years of IB Experience for Top Tier Schools

Post by popgirl »

wayfarer wrote:
> It depends on how you define top-tier.
> I got a teaching position at a top tier IB school with 2 years of IBDP
> experience. However, I would not describe that school as a top tier school.
> Though I have seen it appear regularly on numerous ISR top tier school
> lists.
> I did go on to teach in a (what I would classify) solid top tier school
> after 5 years of teaching IBDP

The one I was thinking of is in Bangkok.
PsyGuy
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Discussion

Post by PsyGuy »

That is because those lists (such as by @Heliotrope) arent very accurate. They are mostly ego reinforcement in the form of theyre a top class IT and they taught at the IS so it must be a top tier IS. The pool of elite tier ISs really is very small, low single digit percent overall.
popgirl
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Re: Discussion

Post by popgirl »

PsyGuy wrote:
> That is because those lists (such as by @Heliotrope) arent very accurate.
> They are mostly ego reinforcement in the form of theyre a top class IT and
> they taught at the IS so it must be a top tier IS. The pool of elite tier
> ISs really is very small, low single digit percent overall.


Could you name any schools that you think are definitely elite tier in all senses - not just 'coin'.
Heliotrope
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Re: Discussion

Post by Heliotrope »

PsyGuy wrote:
> That is because those lists (such as by @Heliotrope) arent very accurate.

I don't know all schools, so I didn't feel like I (or anyone) was equipped to make a list of undisputed tier 1 schools. I can make a list of schools I consider tier 1, but that's only useful for me, and even that list will be incomplete, partly wrong and outdated.

There's plenty of information (such as salary plus average cost of living in the city the school's located) you could use to make a list, but not everything that makes a school a tier 1 for most is hard data or data that can be found easily, if at all.

And since there are no official tier 1 criteria, all tier 1 lists people make are just opinions. Some teachers value only (or mostly) savings potential, while plenty of teachers will think other things are at least as important, and everybody is correct.

However, there is a lot of overlap in what most teachers value in a school.
So I've just compiled a list of all the schools that I've seen mentioned as tier 1 many times, and at the same time are never (or not often) said to be unworthy of that designation.
As a result there are some schools on my list that I don't agree with, while some school that I'd deem worthy I haven't seen mentioned often enough to include on the list.

So if a schools is on my list, it merely means there are a good number of teachers who are of the opinion it's a tier 1 school, and none, or not many, have said it's not. It shouldn't be taken as fact, partly because it might be outdated (schools change, for the better and for the worse), and also because what's tier 1 for most might not be tier 1 for you. Still, it can useful to see what the crowd thinks.


PsyGuy wrote:
> They are mostly ego reinforcement in the form of theyre a top class IT and
> they taught at the IS so it must be a top tier IS.

Actually, according to your own 'Applicant Scoring System', I am what you call a 'Master IT' with a couple of points to spare, and I've seen you describe my school as 'elite' in another topic. And while my ego remains fragile nonetheless, it has nothing to do with the list.


PsyGuy wrote:
> The pool of elite tier ISs really is very small, low single digit percent overall.

I agree, the number of upper tier 1 schools is in the low single digit percent overall.


@popgirl
What @PsyGuy says is elite tier is what most just call 'upper tier 1'. And even those you could rank (giving way to a 'platinum elite tier').
Unfortunately we're not allowed to mention schools on the public forum, so you'd have to ask around on the paid forum or elsewhere. But even if you find a list and one of the schools that's on there offers you a job, be sure to still do thorough research on the school, and on the city it's in.
PsyGuy
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Discussion

Post by PsyGuy »

The ranking of IS tier is not individual opinion. Ive written this many times, you can be happy and grow personally and professionally at a tier 3 IS, its still a tier 3 IS. Likewise you can be very unhappy and have your personal and professional growth restrained at a tier 1 IS, its still a tier 1 IS.

I dont know what hard data @Heliotrope is alleviating too, tier determination is made against a variety of factors based on data derived from factor ana1ysis that showed significant (in the statistical sense) inflection and trajectory along the curve. However, one major limitation of the study was that while many factors were both statistically and practically worthless, there was a very, very small category of factors (by factors, this specifically means 2, and one of them was a factor that represented continuous ratio data that was significant at a lower point on the continuum but at a near further point on the continuum was not. The further extrapolated point was retained because of a competing but complimentary definition and application of the factor. The other factor was anomalous, but consistently persistent, though at a lower degree of confidence. Thus, while retained it was assigned a low point value.), that were influential and contributory but not at the generally accepted statistical standard of significance (p=.05) but became significant at lower confidence levels (in no case did this exceed p=.1). This means that under the accepted standard of confidence, an event would be observed in 5% or less of the observations from random occurrence. Under the alternative level of confidence (p=.1) the event would be observed in 10% of the observations from random occurrence.

The factors comprising tier rankings are highly formalized. That some of the factors are less tangible or more abstract than other factors doesnt make those factors pixie dust and unicorn farts. That some IT values savings over another ITs priority of work life balance is immaterial. A tier 1 IS with poor work life balance is still a tier 1 IS, and a tier 3 IS with great savings is still a tier 3 IS.

The list generated by @Heliotrope suffers among other issues from a high degree of bloat. Many of those ISs included on the @Heliotrope list are there because of ego based on an ITs feelings that they are a top IT and so their IS is a top IS.

Tier rankings of ISs dont change very often. Tier placement is very resistant to change crossing the boundary between tiers, much like the state changes of water requires far more resources than just rising or falling incrementally across a line.

The elite tier is a special subset of the first tier. It is the best IS among the small number of first tier ISs in a given region. What sets it apart from other tiers is that:
1) It has a higher degree of volatility. ISs much more readily and with greater frequency move in and out of the elite tier designation.
2) ISs must earn the designation of elite, its not a fixed ranking. There are a number of regions that dont have an elite tier IS among their first tier ISs.
3) Unlike the other tier designations in which tier ranking is regionally restricted to comparison among ISs only in that region, elite designation tends to hold validity across regional boundaries allowing comparisons between elite tier ISs with a not insignificant amount of utility.

@Heliotrope

You cant universally be a defacto Master class IT (and you cant meet that class criteria with points to spare). This shows your misunderstanding of the PASS. It works best when compared to an actual job specification. You need 8 points to be a Master class IT and the most you can obtain without a specific specification is 6.5. A maximum of 5 pts. for experience, 1 pt. for an advanced degree, and .5 pt. for previous IS experience. Even using the generous assumptions that all special populations experience and lower leadership experience has universal utility that would grant an additional .75 pt. raising the maximum unspecified cap to 7.25 still short 3/4 of a point from Master class. That you can use your current job specification and obtain an IT class designation of Master is true against only your specific job specification, it doesnt extrapolate beyond your current and specific specification and lacks universal fungibility among vacancy specifications.

@popgirl

Evaluative posts are not permitted on the public forum. I am registered on the members forum where evaluative posts are specifically permitted, but I have a different user name on that forum and present a different approach in my contributions on that forum. While I certainly could provide a Master Tier 1 IS list (and at one time I had provided one on this forum, but it was removed) on the member forum, doing so would associate that user name with my PsyGuy dossier.
Heliotrope
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Re: Discussion

Post by Heliotrope »

PsyGuy wrote:
> The ranking of IS tier is not individual opinion.
> you can be happy and grow personally and professionally at a tier 3
> IS, its still a tier 3 IS. Likewise you can be very unhappy and have your
> personal and professional growth restrained at a tier 1 IS, its still a
> tier 1 IS.

Yes, it is. There are no OFFICIAL criteria for tier designation, so everyone can call any school tier 1 without being wrong.
It's just so that for some schools most or all people will be of a different opinion, while for other school almost everyone will have the same opinion, for the simple reason that most people's preferences will often overlap.


> I dont know what hard data @Heliotrope is alleviating too, tier
> determination is made against a variety of factors based on data derived
> from factor ana1ysis that showed significant (in the statistical sense)
> inflection and trajectory along the curve.

Tier designation is based on people's own experience at a school, or usually (since you can only have experience at so many schools) based on an opinion of a friend, a colleague, a friend of a colleague, or a perfect stranger on a forum such as the ISR member forum, who all might or might not have based their designation on dated hearsay. It can be very accurate but often is a bit or very inaccurate. I've heard different teachers who were at the same school at the same time give the school different tier designations (one said it was definitely tier 2, the other thought it was a solid tier 1). A gut feeling can be the basis of a tier designation, or (a lack of) chemistry with the HoS, having rotten apples in the department, etc. It certainly isn't an exact science.
Such a tier designation can be relevant to some teachers but not all. When I ask colleagues about their impression of a certain school I always make sure to tell them what it is about a school that I deem important and what I don't, so they can give me a relevant, somewhat but not entirely objective, review.
With a greater number of (fairly recent) opinions comes greater accuracy (what most people think will be true for most people), hence why I made my list the way I did. Still it only applies to the average teacher (who values what most teachers will think makes a tier 1 a tier 1), so the list certainly has its limitations.


> That some IT values
> savings over another ITs priority of work life balance is immaterial. A
> tier 1 IS with poor work life balance is still a tier 1 IS, and a tier 3
> IS with great savings is still a tier 3 IS.

Nope, in the absence of official tier criteria everyone gets to decide for themselves what is a tier 1 for them. You don't have the authority to claim a certain school is not tier 1, and there's no organization that does. All you can really say is that most people will be of the opinion that it's not tier 1.


> The list generated by @Heliotrope suffers among other issues from a high
> degree of bloat. Many of those ISs included on the @Heliotrope list are
> there because of ego based on an ITs feelings that they are a top IT and so
> their IS is a top IS.

I'm sure there's some bloat. But because of that risk a small number of opinions about a school won't earn it a spot on the list. It's not waterproof but it's better than including a school just because one person says it's tier 1.


> Tier rankings of ISs dont change very often. Tier placement is very
> resistant to change crossing the boundary between tiers, much like the
> state changes of water requires far more resources than just rising or
> falling incrementally across a line.

Not often, but it happens. New leadership can really mess up a school, especially if the school's Board isn't vigilant.


> You cant universally be a defacto Master class IT

I've been Master class IT (your words, not mine - according to your scoring system) for my last three appointments, so perhaps not universal but I'm not worried about my chances on the job market.
As I said elsewhere, your PASS isn't completely useless, but it's not highly accurate either. But then again, no scoring system would be - very recruiter will assign their own scores to different factors (much like how teachers do when they assign tier to a school).
PsyGuy
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Reply

Post by PsyGuy »

@Heliotrope

We disagree.

No, its not. Tier designations and criteria are highly formalized. Tier designation is not subject to individual experience. The ranking of IS tier is not individual opinion. Ive written this many times, you can be happy and grow personally and professionally at a tier 3 IS, its still a tier 3 IS. Likewise you can be very unhappy and have your personal and professional growth restrained at a tier 1 IS, its still a tier 1 IS.

Your list is inaccurate and suffers from serious bloat among other issues.

Yes, tier designations are highly formalized. They are not subject to individual POVs and internal schema.

It happens far, far less often than you are inferring. New leadership can also be gone as quickly as they blew in. Often a horrible leader, even in executive leadership will not result in a tier shift provided the leader is selected out relatively quickly.

The PASS has a high degree of validity and reliability.
Heliotrope
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Re: Reply

Post by Heliotrope »

> No, its not. Tier designations and criteria are highly formalized. Tier
> designation is not subject to individual experience. The ranking of IS tier
> is not individual opinion. Ive written this many times, you can be happy
> and grow personally and professionally at a tier 3 IS, its still a tier 3
> IS. Likewise you can be very unhappy and have your personal and
> professional growth restrained at a tier 1 IS, its still a tier 1 IS.

There are no official criteria. Everyone can assign tiers themselves, though not everyone will have the same opinion.
We disagree.


> Your list is inaccurate and suffers from serious bloat among other issues.

Unavoidably a list like that will have some inaccuracies and some bloat.
We somewhat agree.


> It happens far, far less often than you are inferring. New leadership can
> also be gone as quickly as they blew in. Often a horrible leader, even in
> executive leadership will not result in a tier shift provided the leader is
> selected out relatively quickly.

Not sure what you think what I'm inferring, but it happens.
I've also seen plenty of bad leadership stay around for many years until the Board finally realizes the school is less great than before. Boards are sometimes quite clueless as to what makes a school a good school. And sometimes the Board just isn't interested if a school is a good place for teachers to work at, as long as the exam results are still good and enrolment is still where they want it to be. So the Board might be happy with what the new leadership does, but from the point of view of the teachers it won't be a pleasant place to work at anymore.


> The PASS has a high degree of validity and reliability.

If it works for you, good for you.
But it doesn't describe how my last couple of schools select candidates.
We disagree.
shadowjack
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Re: Years of IB Experience for Top Tier Schools

Post by shadowjack »

Buttered popcorn, anyone? I read the script, my mind makes the movie...
Heliotrope
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Re: Years of IB Experience for Top Tier Schools

Post by Heliotrope »

shadowjack wrote:
> Buttered popcorn, anyone? I read the script, my mind makes the movie...

Not the most exciting movie I'm sure. They'll probably get Kevin James and David Spade to play us.
I'll stop responding to @PsyGuy's nonsense now, or they'll have to make it a two-parter and nobody wants that (except perhaps Kevin James).
shadowjack
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Re: Years of IB Experience for Top Tier Schools

Post by shadowjack »

Just as it was getting interesting!
PsyGuy
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Reply

Post by PsyGuy »

@Heliotrope

Tier designations and criteria are highly formalized. Tier designation is not subject to individual experience. The ranking of IS tier is not individual opinion. Ive written this many times, you can be happy and grow personally and professionally at a tier 3 IS, its still a tier 3 IS. Likewise you can be very unhappy and have your personal and professional growth restrained at a tier 1 IS, its still a tier 1 IS.
We disagree.

No, we completely disagree regarding your list.

The number of occurrences is more than zero. Youre inference is that it happens more often than exceedingly rare.
Those werent bad leadership. They may have been bad leadership for ITs, but ownership isnt always concerned with ITs. Yes, exam scores, enrollment, etc. can be a greater priority and such a higher priority that IT welfare amounts to nothing. Leadership doesnt get to stay leadership long not following what ownership wants.

The PASS just works. That your past ISs dont use it doesnt effect its validity or reliability. There are multiple valid and accurate routes of getting to a destination.
We disagree.
Coimbra
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Re: Years of IB Experience for Top Tier Schools

Post by Coimbra »

First a reply for the OP:
I'm a recruiter at the kind of school you are describing and I only look at candidates with a minimum of 3-4 year IB experience, and 10 years of teaching experience overall.

And while I don't like to get in the middle of two dogs fighting:
I have looked at the most recent tier 1 list on the Member Forum with a colleague of mine who is a member and roughly 90% of the list are schools I would consider first tier and of the remaining ten percent more than half used to be. I have worked at one that used to be and I got out while the ship was sinking. Many in the field still call it tier 1 but I think it is no longer.
I have never seen a list of what qualifies a school to be tier 1 other than some vague notions on it having a high -but unspecified- salary and a few other things that were not quantified.
I haven't seen the PASS scoring system and we don't use a scoring system over here, so I am happy to not weigh in on that.
PsyGuy
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Reply

Post by PsyGuy »

@Coimbra

Thats only one IS, and it doesnt take into account significant factors such as location (Myanmar has a very different recruiting profile than JP does at first tier ISs) but youre not off.

That 10% is the bloat, and theres different views of what that 10% is. The reality is that the list of tier 1 ISs is much smaller than @Heliotrope.
Coimbra
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Post by Coimbra »

First tier anywhere can prob demand 4 years IB and 10 years overall seeing how many applicants they get but yes in Japan they could be likely ask for a lot more although I doubt that adds much. Speaking for my school I don't care if it is 4 or 6 or 8 years IB experience as the applicant just needs to meet the experience requirement along with some other ones so we can look at fit which is where people can really set themselves apart. Two applicants with the same CV can still be wildly different teachers.

Half of that 10% are schools I would not call tier 1 but most others still do so they should be on the list but they will not be on my personal list.
I would not call it bloat as I see more teachers at the first tier underestimating how favorably their school compares to others than the other way around.
I see too many teachers base their classification of a school they do not personally know on a single opinion they have heard from colleagues or a stranger at a workshop etc and then repeat it to other teachers who in turn spread it. I think that's more likely where the 5% comes from but we are all just speculating anyway and part of it might be bloat as well. Still even at 90% it is the most accurate lists I have seen so kudos to Helotrope.
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