Big fish in a small (Lower Tier 3) pond vs. small fish in a Big (Tier 1) Pond

Lastname_Z
Posts: 120
Joined: Mon May 20, 2013 12:17 pm

Big fish in a small (Lower Tier 3) pond vs. small fish in a Big (Tier 1) Pond

Post by Lastname_Z »

In your experiences, what is better when being in the early part of an international career?

To have been in a Tier 3 school in large roles (Department Head, Coordinator, Heading up Committees, etc) and to have gotten experiences that would not be given to newer teacher in a Tier 1.

vs.

To have been a standard teacher at a Tier 1, standard meaning Teaching, Extracurriculars and everything that is normally expected of a teacher at this level but not more.

If you were in a position to choose between two offers that matched the above descriptions, which would you choose?
PsyGuy
Posts: 10789
Joined: Wed Oct 12, 2011 9:51 am
Location: Northern Europe

Inquiry

Post by PsyGuy »

Thats not the right question. The right question is: which of these is the better option, given my goals are X?

What are your goals?
fine dude
Posts: 651
Joined: Tue Dec 18, 2012 7:12 pm
Location: SE Asia

Re: Big fish in a small (Lower Tier 3) pond vs. small fish in a Big (Tier 1) Pond

Post by fine dude »

Depends on your calibre, credentials, and professional experience as well. If you are an extrovert with strong networking skills and likeable, you can take a shot at becoming a middle level leader and work your way up to the senior leadership team at a tier 3 school. The perks are good, you have the freedom to hire and fire, and stay put for a number of years. The down side is that if this school is family-owned and if the owners view the school as a money-making machine, you too are at their mercy. The other fallout is that it'll be difficult for you to move to a similar position at a tier 1 school from here.

However, if you want to lead a low-stress life, enjoy your long breaks and build a solid nest egg, you can't go wrong working as a teacher at a tier 1 school. I spoke to teacher-millionaires (USD) retiring from elite schools in SE Asia and they don't have any regrets. These folks were happy with their classroom stints and if they had a choice, they would do it all over again.
sid
Posts: 1392
Joined: Sat Dec 02, 2006 11:44 am

Re: Big fish in a small (Lower Tier 3) pond vs. small fish in a Big (Tier 1) Pond

Post by sid »

Quick options are often available in the weakest schools, but aren’t always great experiences. I currently have two teachers on staff who rose to Principal and Director respectively, but they couldn’t sustain. The owners had promoted them for selfish, non-educational reasons and fired them for the same. Their leadership experience was insufficient to apply in other schools. One managed to get a leadership job in another school but was quickly let go when he didn’t meet the grade. The other couldn’t get a leadership job at all. Both are full-on teachers with us. One has had enough of the slippery pole and intends to stay a teacher. The other is starting over, trying to pick up extra responsibilities, working on a master’s degree, lining himself up for a post of responsibility once one opens up.
Being in leadership at a weak school is very different from leading in a good one, and it won’t really provide the preparation you need to succeed.
It’s two teachers at my current school, but I’ve known people in this situation in various places. There’s often one or two about in better larger schools.
buffalofan
Posts: 350
Joined: Wed Jan 06, 2010 11:08 pm

Re: Big fish in a small (Lower Tier 3) pond vs. small fish in a Big (Tier 1) Pond

Post by buffalofan »

There is no point in working for a 3rd tier for-profit school in any capacity when you have other options. Agree with the above replies, leadership experience at a school like this will mean jack sh*t for a tier 1 school (and may even be a disadvantage). The only exception might be those tier 1 schools that operate and act like for-profits (but you'll want to avoid these schools like the plague as well).
fine dude
Posts: 651
Joined: Tue Dec 18, 2012 7:12 pm
Location: SE Asia

Re: Big fish in a small (Lower Tier 3) pond vs. small fish in a Big (Tier 1) Pond

Post by fine dude »

If you want to climb the career ladder fast, here is another strategy:
1. Work as a teacher/department head at an established and reputed tier 1 school.
2. Get your master's in education and apply for assistant/deputy principal jobs at a tier 2 school.
3. Return to another tier 1 school as a principal/director of teaching and learning.

A few of my friends have worked this out.
PsyGuy
Posts: 10789
Joined: Wed Oct 12, 2011 9:51 am
Location: Northern Europe

Discussion

Post by PsyGuy »

I strongly disagree with the prior contributors. Its not that its a bad idea at all, its just such along pathway that for most ITs will have a substantial waiting time and a lot of competition. Its not like there isnt a line of ITs wanting some leadership in top tier IS. The hardest part about leadership is getting the opportunity, mainly the first opportunity. While its certainly to the new leader to be successful, even unsuccessful leadership has utility and where an IT is likely to get that opportunity sooner rather than MUCH later is going to be in the third tier. Its just unicorn farts and a pixie dust storybook if the get into tier 1 IS, then move to tier 2 in a senior but not executive leadership role and then move back to tier 1 in an executive leadership role is a reasonable career route.
fine dude
Posts: 651
Joined: Tue Dec 18, 2012 7:12 pm
Location: SE Asia

Re: Big fish in a small (Lower Tier 3) pond vs. small fish in a Big (Tier 1) Pond

Post by fine dude »

The question is, what will a guy who never worked in SLT or at a premier school know anything about being a 'big fish?' "Unicorn farts and a pixie dust storybook" - my thoughts exactly on your IT insights.
PsyGuy
Posts: 10789
Joined: Wed Oct 12, 2011 9:51 am
Location: Northern Europe

Reply

Post by PsyGuy »

@fine dude

Its not establishing a colony on mars. Its a building comprised of a business supervising a small group of humans who supervise larger groups of smaller and younger humans. Managing ITs is a lot like managing students. Listen to them, dont be a jerk, be honest and upfront with them, things might change and what you say one day may no longer be possible tomorrow but dont hide it, tell them, do your best and recognize you're going to fail.

You might be a "big fish" but whatever you think it is its just edu, it's not a country a fortune 100 (or 500) company. Its not Amazon, Google, or Apple. Its not anything an IT, who has a college degree, isnt stupid, and has some degree of experience on the edu side. Its not something you cant figure out. You dont have to be the Mister Hollands Opus of leadership you need to learn some HR, some finance, some business and some people skills involving grownups. Not magic, doesnt need unicorn farts of pixie dust.
Illiane_Blues

Re: Big fish in a small (Lower Tier 3) pond vs. small fish in a Big (Tier 1) Pond

Post by Illiane_Blues »

fine dude wrote:
> If you want to climb the career ladder fast, here is another strategy:
> 1. Work as a teacher/department head at an established and reputed tier 1
> school.
> 2. Get your master's in education and apply for assistant/deputy principal
> jobs at a tier 2 school.
> 3. Return to another tier 1 school as a principal/director of teaching and
> learning.
>
> A few of my friends have worked this out.

Yep, this. Although when trying to get a certain role in a tier 1, having done that exact same role at a tier 2 makes it a lot easier to get that job. Going from deputy principal at a tier 2 to a principal job at tier 1 is difficult.
Rising through the ranks at a tier 1 is also a good route: teacher > assistant-HoD > HoD > deputy principal > principal
EyEyEy
Posts: 25
Joined: Tue Nov 03, 2020 10:32 pm

Re: Big fish in a small (Lower Tier 3) pond vs. small fish in a Big (Tier 1) Pond

Post by EyEyEy »

I've noticed that for a lot of the SLT positions, schools like to hire from within if they have a good internal candidate.
For the top position they sometimes prefer to look for an external candidate, but have also seen some deputies being promoted to the top spot as well.
fine dude
Posts: 651
Joined: Tue Dec 18, 2012 7:12 pm
Location: SE Asia

Re: Big fish in a small (Lower Tier 3) pond vs. small fish in a Big (Tier 1) Pond

Post by fine dude »

Being promoted from a department head to deputy principal followed by principal in a tier 1 school is cut-throat. Too many variables at play - nepotism, nationalism, loyalty etc. You need to cast a wider net outside of your current school if you want to grow faster. Very few schools promote internally as the SLT believes that the admin grass is greener on the other side, which is not always the case. There are also heads of schools who prefer outsiders with PhDs than experienced internal candidates who have a better understanding of school's issues. This is how discontent grows in an organization when the former fail to recognise home-grown talent.
Heliotrope
Posts: 1167
Joined: Sun May 13, 2018 1:48 am

Re: Big fish in a small (Lower Tier 3) pond vs. small fish in a Big (Tier 1) Pond

Post by Heliotrope »

Like @EyEyEy, I too have seen many classroom teachers rise through the ranks at tier 1 schools.
It just seemed they preferred to promote a known quantity with demonstrated qualities rather than hire a candidate from elsewhere who might not be a good fit, even if they appear perfect on paper.
At a previous school I have also seen SLT hiring SLT from other schools whom they've met a couple of times at conferences, fairs, etc., leading them to think (sometimes incorrectly) that they had a good idea of that person's capabilities. I can imagine that happening at a fair amount of other schools as well.
secondplace
Posts: 191
Joined: Thu Apr 14, 2016 12:40 pm

Re: Big fish in a small (Lower Tier 3) pond vs. small fish in a Big (Tier 1) Pond

Post by secondplace »

There does seem to be a divide between those Heads of School/Directors who like to promote internally and seek to offer opportunities to existing staff, and those who flat out refuse to and only want to hire from outside.

The former seems healthier to me - offering internal advancement opportunities, but also being open to external candidates.

The latter - only hiring externally seems a demoralising approach to me.
sid
Posts: 1392
Joined: Sat Dec 02, 2006 11:44 am

Re: Big fish in a small (Lower Tier 3) pond vs. small fish in a Big (Tier 1) Pond

Post by sid »

I generally prefer to look internally first, and often the right candidate is there. But for certain posts at certain times, you know you need to look outside. For example, if you’re starting a new IB program, it is best to have someone who has implemented it before, and preferably earned authorization elsewhere. Either you have someone on staff who has done it, or you don’t and you have to go looking.
Post Reply