iPGCE for a non native

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Tol_Eressea
Posts: 4
Joined: Sun Jun 13, 2021 1:36 am

iPGCE for a non native

Post by Tol_Eressea »

Hello all! I have been reading a lot about the iPGCE (also some of this forum threads) but I still have doubts...

I am not an English native speaker, I don't have a "significant" bachelors and I haven't studied in international schools (Argentinian and Italian passport so for now visa is not a problem for working in Europe) so I don´t think I would ever get into the 1st tier international schools. I am currently teaching Reception in a small international school in Thailand. My bachelors is in Image and Sound design. I also have some experience as a Drama and Visual Arts teacher and I am looking forward to gaining more experience in the future (outside my Reception's classroom) as I love both.

My question is, for a non native who cannot really apply to the 1st tier schools, does it make any sense to do the iPGCE? I have the feeling those schools that would hire me would do so regardless of the iPGCE. Would it make a difference to earn a Masters? Of course those things always look better in your resume, but how determinant is it for someone like me? I know the best would be a license, but I am not even sure it would make any difference if I was a teacher in my home country (Argentina).

I have read in this forum that "a PGCEi is a working qualification in parts of IE" though I am not really sure whether IE stands for International Education? (face of embarrassment here lol, I even tried to google it) and I know you may gain QTS through an iPGCE though unsure if that is the case for non British and non English native speakers.

Of course I think it would be really good to learn more about teaching. But then, spending 7500 euros (current fee for iPGCE in Sunderland) sounds like way too much. It does look like the most reputable place but again, for a non native, how determinant is it to earn an iPGCE from Sunderland? The University of Derby is also offering an iPGCE with teaching practice and mentor, for 2625 euros... Buckhingham University also offers a university tutor in a subject specialist, costing around 4650 euros... Tes Institute for 4190 euros.... 

Sunderland is also currently giving iPGCE for Early Years or Primary or Secondary, which I guess shows more professionalism but again, if I earn an EY iPGCE it makes me feel I wouldn't be able to teach Art in secondary school with such certificate.

Of course you get what you pay for, but has any of you done or heard of someone doing the iPGCE in any other university (neither Sunderland nor Nottingham) and getting better job offers afterwards?

I am only considering those universities that require you to be working in the international setting and teaching practice, as my understanding is, an iPGCE from such universities is better. (Maybe I am wrong?)

I also wonder whether I would be paying all those extra bucks for quality or also for their higher costs in location (London), advertisements and so on.
 
I am inclined to apply to Derby/Buckingham but again, it would be awful to work really hard this following year for a certificate that wouldn't be recognized at all... I know nobody can really tell, but it would be great to hear your thoughts. :D

Thanks a lot in advance!
sciteach
Posts: 258
Joined: Sat Dec 13, 2014 7:49 am

Re: iPGCE for a non native

Post by sciteach »

To be honest - your real problem is not that you are from a non-English speaking background, it's that (as it appears to me - I may be wrong) you don't have a teaching degree. This means that almost any major international school will not employ you as you have not completed formal qualifications.

In general, the minimum expectation at international schools tends to be a teacher qualification (most of the time with certification) along with a minimum of 2 years teaching experience. Completing a qualification as you have mentioned will get you part of they way there, but then you will also need to work at a school that has proper credentials. These schools only tend to employ teachers who have specific qualifications and can teach in their home countries or country where they completed their degree.

Another thing to consider is what you will be qualified to teach. You mentioned that you like Drama and Visual Arts. Some people on this forum are free to correct me - but I do believe that these subjects are not "highly in demand" methods which will make it more challenging to get a job at what some people consider "high quality international schools".

I have come across many international teachers who speaks a language other than English as their main language. To be honest - the best schools tend to look for the best teachers so it's not always linked to your native language. I'd say that in a highly competitive method such as math or physics where there is a dearth of high quality staff - visa regulations might pose a bigger threat that schools employing you because of an Argentine/Italian passport.
unsure
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Joined: Wed Oct 31, 2018 12:15 pm

Re: iPGCE for a non native

Post by unsure »

I've been lucky enough to teach in some 'tier 1' schools, and they all had non native teachers in them. They were damn good teachers too, which I guess is why they were hired.Those that fall back on "but I'm a native speaker" - that tends to be all they have. So be confident that good schools will look at your teaching and not at your linguistic background.

As for the iPGCE, as long as you do one that has a teaching practicum element, you should be fine. Good luck !
PsyGuy
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Location: Northern Europe

Response

Post by PsyGuy »

I disagree with prior contributors. Yes there are non-native English speakers hired in them, they tend to be the exception rather than the rule. The issue is that while the ones you do find are by and large exceptional ITs, you dont see many average or mediocre ITs who are non-English speakers. Most Its tend to over estimate their quality. Youre also going to find that when the stone meets steal if youve got 5 ITs and 4 of them are non-native English Speakers and one of them is, Id put my coin that the native English speaker gets the job.

IE = International Education

Yes a PGCEi is a working qualification in a lot of the third tier in IE, some make it to higher tiers, but thats because they were really good at teaching, and not because they had a PGCEi.

None of these PGCEi variations authorize you to deliver instructional services in any context. A PGCEi is not a credential its an academic qualification. Right now its difficult (not impossible) but difficult to convert a PGCEi into QTS, and its only getting more difficult. Its possible that the TCL/TRA will institute a international form of QTS but thats still in the distance. Even if and when that happens, its likely to create two classes of ITs those that have "real" QTS and those that have the iQTS, and its likely that the current form of QTS is going to be seen as superior than whatever the iQTS is. A EY PGCEi doesnt permit you to teach EY or art in EY nor more than a PGCEi in chemistry permits you to teach chemistry or underwater basket weaving. That such a qualification is persuasive to a recruiter or IE leader to appoint you as a member of the faculty and assign you X class is related to all of zero from the PGCEi. A PGCEi is just a mini degree thats less than a Masters. In that regard once your get out of the third tier having a PGCEi just says "I dont have a Masters". Having a field experience component however doesnt make the PGCEi anything more than it is without one.

Well having a field experience/teaching practice is nicer. It will give you some experience to pull from during interviews and show that your competence is more than just theoretical and conceptual, and that you didnt run screaming from the room at how horrible monsters the students are. No one thinks a few months of playing teacher during field experience speaks very much to your teaching abilities.

Unless your going to OxBridge, it doesnt matter where you go. Nottingham has gotten a bit of a substandard reputation but their PGCEi holders still get hired.

I disagree with @sciteach there are a lot of ITs who dont have a teaching degree. They often have a subject matter degree (or not) and then a professional teacher education program (such as an EPP or ITT program).

Neither drama nor art are generally in high demand.
unsure
Posts: 44
Joined: Wed Oct 31, 2018 12:15 pm

Re: Response

Post by unsure »

PsyGuy wrote:

A
> PGCEi is just a mini degree thats less than a Masters. In that regard once
> your get out of the third tier having a PGCEi just says "I dont have a
> Masters". Having a field experience component however doesnt make the
> PGCEi anything more than it is without one.
>
> Well having a field experience/teaching practice is nicer. It will give you
> some experience to pull from during interviews and show that your
> competence is more than just theoretical and conceptual, and that you didnt
> run screaming from the room at how horrible monsters the students are. No
> one thinks a few months of playing teacher during field experience speaks
> very much to your teaching abilities.
>
> Unless your going to OxBridge, it doesnt matter where you go. Nottingham
> has gotten a bit of a substandard reputation but their PGCEi holders still
> get hired.


This shows a lack of understanding about what an iPGCE is. It also looks at a British qualification from an almost entirely North American perspective, as well as being ill informed generally. There are several territories/schools that reject iPGCEs if they don't have a properly mentored teaching placement element. Nottingham University itself is well regarded. It's iPGCE isn't as it doesn't require a mentored teaching placement. It's the mentored bit, where you get regular observations and feedback, that is key. A real PGCE in the UK generally requires two rigorous teaching placements of around 12 weeks each, comprising of observing other classes, team teaching and observed teaching. This is in addition to regular classes at uni. You are assessed through detailed observations of your teaching from your tutor at the university who visits your placement schools at least twice and is in regular contact with your placement mentor who observes you usually on at least a daily basis (you are often teaching their classes). Folders (binders) of evidence are accrued and show that your have hit a range of required standards and competencies. These are also expected to be in evidence during your observations. This is followed by an NQT year, where you teach an 80% timetable, have a personal mentor, as well as a school wide NQT tutor. You continue to have (very) regular observations, together with (at least) weekly meetings of PD and feedback. There is (or was) also a requirement of at least 4 externally led PD sessions during the year. It is these two years that leads to what the British generally regard as a "properly' qualified teacher with permanent QTS. Even the best iPGCE only requires 2 x 6 week placements, and no NQT year, although an observation is required. The Nottingham iPGCE asks you to write 4 essays, with no requirement for even one observation. Properly qualified British teachers see it as barely worth the paper it is written on.

A masters (at least from a British perspective) is an entirely different thing. Masters in Education (and Doctorates the same) are often seen as a complete waste of time. A North American conceit. While a masters in your subject is well respected - particularly by top tier British schools, a masters in Education is seen at best as a curiosity. Most British admin (we call them SLT - Senior Leadership Team) don't have a masters in Education, and the doctorate is even rarer. That said, they are gaining popularity - particularly internationally. I've known many Heads of School of top tier British schools without a masters, let alone a doctorate. They will, however have the NPQH (and often a degree from Oxford / Cambridge).
PsyGuy
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Location: Northern Europe

Reply

Post by PsyGuy »

@unsure

I know exactly what an iPGCE is, its an academic qualification its not a credential and it doesnt lead to a credential, namely QTS. Mentored teaching, supervised teaching observations, none of those piled as high to the sky will equate in any way shape or form as being a credential, again, namely QTS. No observation and feedback are not key, they superfluous in that no amount of feedback or observation means any type of QTS.

NQTs still have QTS albeit not full QTS which they earn after completing their induction year, its induction during that NQT year that results in full QTS.

Masters are quit popular by both American and English ITs both in British ISs and others. National qualifications tend to be rather uncommon in IE.
unsure
Posts: 44
Joined: Wed Oct 31, 2018 12:15 pm

Re: Reply

Post by unsure »

PsyGuy wrote:
> @unsure
>
Mentored teaching, supervised teaching observations, none of those piled as high to
> the sky will equate in any way shape or form as being a credential, again,
> namely QTS. No observation and feedback are not key, they superfluous in
> that no amount of feedback or observation means any type of QTS.
>
> NQTs still have QTS albeit not full QTS which they earn after completing
> their induction year, its induction during that NQT year that results in
> full QTS.
>
> Masters are quit popular by both American and English ITs both in British
> ISs and others. National qualifications tend to be rather uncommon in IE.



You can't get QTS in the UK without the mentored placements. Indeed, they are the main point of the PGCE course, and take up about 2/3rds of it. They are also the part that counts the most. Your final observation(s) are the assessments that ultimately decide whether you pass or fail.

While QTS is given once you have got your PGCE, but it doesn't count as full QTS unless you have your NQT year. Good British schools will ask for evidence of both.

Masters are popular amongst North American educators. They are significantly less popular amongst British and Antipodean educators. National Qualifications are common in good British schools. Indeed my old Head of School (they tend to be called Principals in British International Schools. Not to be confused with a Principal in IB/US schools, which we would call a Head of Primary / Secondary etc.) at a highly regarded British International School refused to hire teachers without QTS, and he actively preferred those that had taken the UK based PGCE route.
PsyGuy
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Joined: Wed Oct 12, 2011 9:51 am
Location: Northern Europe

Reply

Post by PsyGuy »

@unsure

No it is not. You are confusing a PGCE with ITT (Initial Teacher Training). You can absolutely do a PGCE and do none of the field experience, it is called an academic PGCE. A PGCE just as an PGCEi is an academic qualification. It is the ITT component that ultimately awards, if successful QTS. There are multiple routes to completing ITT and obtaining QTS that do not contain academic qualifications, such as School Direct, etc. That a particular provider, a Uni in most cases, pairs an academic qualification such as a PGCE with an approved ITT program does not equate one with the other, even if it is a highly popular approach to receiving QTS.

I do not disagree at all with the difference between full QTS (standard grade) and partial QTS (entry grade), I often have to identify it in the forum as well, that NQTs have deficiencies and limitations that those who have passed induction (their NQT year) with full QTS do not. Another difference in that aspect however is also recognizing that both in IE and in British DE that NQTs are professionally credentialed edus, full stop. That there is another stage on their journey does not displace their accomplishments thus far, and that while they can not accept appointment within a maintained DS without undergoing induction (their NQT year) they are still professional edus able to professionally serve in a variety of other appointments. It is no different than an IT with a MA Provisional credential or one with a MA Initial or MA Professional credential, they are still members of the profession admitted to the practice of teaching.
Again you can be an NQT and be required to undergo your induction year though a variety of ways including academic qualifications such as a PGCE as well as through other routes again these are all grouped as ITT programs.

No, Masters are popular among both US and UK ITs in IE, because you get paid more coin. Even BSs (including BSOs) have salary scales with bands for advance academic qualifications.
No, NQs (there are more than just the NQ for headship) are not common in IE, even among the upper tier BSs.

One leaders preference does not the field make. There does tend to be a minor preference among both US and UK leaders for those that obtained their professional credentials through the academic route. As the availability of credentials have been eased over recent years, the academic (traditional route) is becoming more an indication of quality ITs.
unsure
Posts: 44
Joined: Wed Oct 31, 2018 12:15 pm

Re: Reply

Post by unsure »

PsyGuy wrote:
> @unsure

> You can absolutely do a PGCE and do none of the field experience.

No, you can't.



> No, Masters are popular among both US and UK ITs in IE, because you get
> paid more coin. Even BSs (including BSOs) have salary scales with bands for
> advance academic qualifications.

No, they don't. It's one of the reasons why British teachers don't do a masters as routinely as North American teachers.


Sweetie - when it comes to US/ IB schools, I'll bow my head to your greater knowledge. When it comes to British Schools and the British system, I'm terribly sorry, but my experience and understanding is greater. It's to be expected as that's the system that I was educated in, was trained in, and have worked in, and know in the greatest depth.
PsyGuy
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Reply

Post by PsyGuy »

@ unsure

Yes you can.
Yes they do. Its why the instance of British ITs seeking masters in IE is in equivalent quantities as other ITs.
Your understanding and knowledge displays a great deal of ignorance and misunderstanding and is in no way adequate in regards to the English/British system of professional training.
Helen Back
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Re: iPGCE for a non native

Post by Helen Back »

From my experience NPQ is generally taken by those who wish to move into admin in British schools. Masters, the few I've seen in British schools, tend to belong to teachers who wanted to deepen their subject knowledge.

As it says on the FOBISIA website, "NPQ programmes are recognised across the globe, and offer a unique opportunity to network with other international leaders from across Asia."

https://www.fobisia.org/cpd/npq
unsure
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Joined: Wed Oct 31, 2018 12:15 pm

Re: iPGCE for a non native

Post by unsure »

Helen Back wrote:
> Masters, the few I've seen in British schools,
> tend to belong to teachers who wanted to deepen their subject knowledge.


Quite
PsyGuy
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Location: Northern Europe

Discussion

Post by PsyGuy »

The various NPQs are equivalent to US administrative credentials, they are well respected and recognized globally both in and out of IE. This is a good example though of the difference between a credential and a license. An NPQ doesnt authorize a leader to supervise, that function is held by QTS. You only need QTS to supervise faculty, not an NPQ.

Masters degrees are taken at about the same rate and number in IE by British ITs as other ITs. The British system of advancement in DE, based on the MPS and UPS scales was determined by more subjective criteria of performance and evaluation in addition to years of experience rather than on objective criteria such as academic degrees. That system kept a lot of British DTs at lower level of salary than they felt they deserved, and partially pushed British DTs into IE where BSs adopted the step (experience) and band (academic qualification) system used in their salary scales, which is far more common in IE, and thus sees a greater degree of British ITs pursuing Masters degrees, since its far more likely you will find an IS that will pay more coin for an IT with an advanced degree. The cost of a Masters degree from a UK Uni is typically less expensive than programs in the US, the cost of which can often be recovered in a few years with the increase in salary by having an advanced degree.
unsure
Posts: 44
Joined: Wed Oct 31, 2018 12:15 pm

Re: Discussion

Post by unsure »

PsyGuy wrote:

>
> Masters degrees are taken at about the same rate and number in IE by
> British ITs as other ITs. The British system of advancement in DE, based on
> the MPS and UPS scales was determined by more subjective criteria of
> performance and evaluation in addition to years of experience rather than
> on objective criteria such as academic degrees. That system kept a lot of
> British DTs at lower level of salary than they felt they deserved, and
> partially pushed British DTs into IE where BSs adopted the step
> (experience) and band (academic qualification) system used in their salary
> scales, which is far more common in IE, and thus sees a greater degree of
> British ITs pursuing Masters degrees, since its far more likely you will
> find an IS that will pay more coin for an IT with an advanced degree.


What utter tosh.
PsyGuy
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Joined: Wed Oct 12, 2011 9:51 am
Location: Northern Europe

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Post by PsyGuy »

Yet utterly true.
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