China all benefits taxed from Jan 1 2022 update

kellysensei
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Re: China all benefits taxed from Jan 1 2022 update

Post by kellysensei »

mysharona wrote:
> In the past Shanghai American School has professed to hired the best fit
> possible, regardless of the number of dependents. I"m not sure that
> policy remains given the current situation but we do have multiple teachers
> with multiple dependents.


Shanghai American School just posted some jobs today, but I looked at their salary/benefits page, and it clearly states that they will waive tuition for (only) one dependent per teacher. I assume I shouldn't bother applying, then.
mysharona
Posts: 210
Joined: Thu Jan 13, 2011 1:25 am

Re: China all benefits taxed from Jan 1 2022 update

Post by mysharona »

Kellysensai, they may say that but we have an academic coach with two kids and a dependent husband hired last year. If you are in demand they will change the rules to make it work, it happens all the time.
PsyGuy
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Reply

Post by PsyGuy »

@expatscot

Having the IS own the apartment/flat is a way around the tax, but many ISs cant do that for a variety of reasons, its just very costly.

I dont see how any IS would be able to engage in such subterfuge for very long, but why would they want to, the tax isnt the ISs responsibility its the ITs. There really isnt a benefit for them to try to hide it

@mathphyschap

China pays pretty well at 20% tax on OSH benefits the tax (even with 2 waivers) is still better than the overall lower salary you will find in other Asian regions.

This issue has cried wolf before, most ITs that have heard it arent going to get their blood pressure up over it until it actually happens to them.

@kellysensei

The 1:1 employee:waiver/place is becoming standard throughout IE. Some ISs will give a discount on a second waiver/seat up to 50% some ISs its full tuition/fees.

Yes, most ISs would still consider your spouse a dependent. Unless your spouse can get the ES to sponsor the visa and your willing to present yourself as single.

Chinese ISs wont get into a bidding war for ITs, China pays well enough it doesnt have to go down the rabbit hole to get high quality ITs. It wont create a crises.

Concur with @mysharona ISs will make exceptions for the right candidate, they just dont want to have to start negotiating from such a defensive position.

@sciteach

Kids have always been cost and now its far easier to hire some white kids for the photo shoot or just use stock photography than it is to give tuition/fee waivers/places especially if an IS is at or near capacity.

@mysharona

Academic coaches are higher than typical ITs, closer to junior leadership than classroom IT.
mysharona
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Re: China all benefits taxed from Jan 1 2022 update

Post by mysharona »

@psyguy, we also have a social studies teacher, a LS teacher, a counselor, and a music teacher with multiple dependents
mathphyschap
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Joined: Wed Oct 28, 2015 3:58 am

Re: China all benefits taxed from Jan 1 2022 update

Post by mathphyschap »

Hi all,

Thanks everyone for replies

So my tier 1/tier 2 Beijing school seems to have reached a decision on this first-stage of the Chinese tax changes

1 - Current staff with 2 children in the school can still get a contract for one more year August 2021-August 2022
2 - Hiring freeze on teachers with dependents is effective immediately- the grapevine suggests that only teachers without dependents will be hired this year, a fairly low number of staff are moving on and probably can be replaced by teachers without dependents - those with need not apply.
3 - moving forwards (i.e. hiring for August 2022) the school will hire 'decent' teachers with one dependent child i.e. one teacher one child will be the norm, teaching couples with two children will be A-OK.
4 - teachers with two children will be hired IF the school really wants them i.e. SSLT positions, selected senior school hard-to-fill positions. Everyone else with two children : one teacher need not apply

This is information gathered formally+informally and is somewhat speculative - have other people heard similar or different messages/rumors?

As a math/physics teacher with two children (and non-teaching spouse) I'm now regularly checking non-China jobs while keeping in mind that (1) I might not get my contract renewed (I wouldn't blame the school - I wouldn't blame 'the-man) and (2) While China is a Huge part of the international education market there are other countries out there.

Overall though this is a pity - one of my life-philoshopies was that 'There is always a half-decent job in China, which includes kids education' and I'm not so sure about that anymore.

Anyone else heard any formal/informal updates on this?
kellysensei
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Location: St. Paul, MN

Re: China all benefits taxed from Jan 1 2022 update

Post by kellysensei »

I've had interviews and/or conversations with three schools in China, and they all told me they are interested in me but that HR has informed them they cannot pursue me due to my dependents (two kids and a TEFL-certified spouse), border closures, and visa issues. A fourth school set up an interview with me, knowing full well of my dependents, and then ghosted me - didn't show up for the interview, and is not responding to emails. (Very unprofessional.)

So again, I'm guessing I should cross China off my list, which is too bad, because I'm studying Chinese and would've like to go there.
PsyGuy
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Discussion

Post by PsyGuy »

@mathphyschap

What your identifying isnt really all that new, it seems like your IS is making a deeper and darker line in the sand, but its nothing that hasnt been a defacto approach. Kids and trailing spouses have always been cost and a single or teaching couple sans kids has always been a better logistical hire than a trailing spouse and kids. When has a recruiter or leadership ever said "yeah lets hire the more expensive one".
It really hinges on what the definition of "IF the school really wants them" means, that ambiguity really nullifies everything your IS stated, it really just gives a recruiter/leadership an excuse they can tag with for passing on a candidate. Instead of saying "pass" they can say "You have too many kids, pass". Your IS hasnt really changed anything theyve just formalized an excuse. If your IS REALLY ants an IT they can still hire them regardless of ho many kids they have because "the IS really wants them".

@kellysensei

What benefit would it be to them to respond to your emails or show up for the interview? You think they care what some IT thinks about their professionalism? Youre a commodity, youre the cow, no one cares what the cow thinks, if they did beef wouldnt be a food choice.
kellysensei
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Location: St. Paul, MN

Re: Discussion

Post by kellysensei »

PsyGuy wrote:

> @kellysensei
>
> What benefit would it be to them to respond to your emails or show up for
> the interview? You think they care what some IT thinks about their
> professionalism? Youre a commodity, youre the cow, no one cares what the
> cow thinks, if they did beef wouldnt be a food choice.

Um, they're the ones who contacted me for an interview; I hadn't even applied for the job. We confirmed the time and date twice. So, to get my hopes up then not show up is unprofessional.
PsyGuy
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Reply

Post by PsyGuy »

@kellysensei

Yeah they contacted you, found out your family logistical situation was and instead of having a potential confrontation with you at the time, just ghosted you and ignored you. It saved them a potential confrontation, and your wasted time amounts to all of zero for them. They dont care what you think of their professionalism.
kellysensei
Posts: 71
Joined: Tue Jul 17, 2012 6:04 pm
Location: St. Paul, MN

Re: Reply

Post by kellysensei »

PsyGuy wrote:
> @kellysensei
>
> Yeah they contacted you, found out your family logistical situation was and
> instead of having a potential confrontation with you at the time, just
> ghosted you and ignored you. It saved them a potential confrontation, and
> your wasted time amounts to all of zero for them. They dont care what you
> think of their professionalism.

No, you're wrong. They contacted me and I immediately explained my family situation, knowing they probably wouldn't pursue me. But she told me she was okay with my family and still very much wanted to talk to me. So I agreed to the interview and she is the one who told me the date and time and then confirmed it again. And then didn't show up.
PsyGuy
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Reply

Post by PsyGuy »

@kellysensei

No you are wrong, if they wanted you there would have been an interview and if they cared what you thought they would have contacted you.
Heliotrope
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Re: Reply

Post by Heliotrope »

It's quite clear they were interested in her. If they had already been certain they would never hire her they wouldn't have scheduled the interview to begin with.
Maybe she was a backup candidate, and their first choice said yes. It still means they would be willing to hire her if their first choice had said no. Perhaps there's another reason they stopped communicating.

Either way, @kellysensei is right - their behaviour was quite unprofessional. Not replying after being sent an application is certainly forgivable, but not replying to someone after missing a scheduled interview is just rude and not befitting a self-respecting school.
PurpleHaze
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Re: China all benefits taxed from Jan 1 2022 update

Post by PurpleHaze »

@kellysensei

I tested the waters in early October with some recruiters who then ghosted me at the time. Some eventually got back to me (literally 5 weeks later) just to tell me they aren't confident enough in the border situation to move forward with the process.

As everyone probably knows, the current recruiting environment is a circus. That said, I've seen some recruiters change tone, from "in China only!" to "in China preferred". Though the market favors teachers already in the country to the point that requirements for replacement candidates have lowered significantly, many schools are making it difficult (visa-wise) for current teachers to leave and jump ship to these better positions. It's a bit of a Catch-22 for both employers and job-seekers.

I think employers are hardcore hedging right now based on how unpredictable things are. Many are probably exasperated, which explains the erratic, often unprofessional correspondence that is happening in recruitment.
PsyGuy
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Reply

Post by PsyGuy »

@Heliotrope

If they were interested they wouldnt have just vanished and ignored the LW. There is nothing unprofessionall about what the recruiter did.
We disagree.

@PurpleHaze

How exasperated can you be that you cant send a one line email canceling an interview?
PurpleHaze
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Re: China all benefits taxed from Jan 1 2022 update

Post by PurpleHaze »

@PsyGuy

Sure. Exasperated, unprofessional, uninterested....there's a whole host of adjectives we can use to describe recruitment.
I was just giving another angle of the same obstacle.

I do agree with your use of the word 'commodity'. While it's initially dehumanizing, one will find it's the reality all across Chinese recruitment (with a few exceptions). The best course of action is to respond in kind (not the dehumanizing part), and that's to go through recruiters like a commodity as well.

@kellysensei

3-4 schools is perhaps too early to call quits. Not sure how high your standards are for a school, but there's still a lot of demand.

For what it's worth, dependents being an issue is not about money or tax benefits, like this thread suggests. Currently, it's border/visa policy.
It's easy for schools, in certain regions, to get a teacher documents to enter the country. However, city-level Chinese bureaus and therefore international visa offices make it difficult to get documents together for dependents, and schools unfortunately think this is too much of a headache for now.
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