@Heliotrope
So your assumptions about what the increased minimum wage in Switzerland "says" about the high cost of living is worth as data about zero.
Your US minimum wage you cite is USD$7.25/hr compared to Geneva (Switzerland) as USD$25/hr. Geneva is paying 3.4x (340% higher) in the US as you cite it. If we go over to Numbeo (which you cite so often) and compare those we first have a problem in comparing a city to a country, so reducing Geneva to Switzerland we find the following:
Consumer Prices in Switzerland are 77.35% higher than in United States
Consumer Prices Including Rent in Switzerland are 61.07% higher than in United States
Rent Prices in Switzerland are 29.79% higher than in United States
Restaurant Prices in Switzerland are 77.59% higher than in United States
Groceries Prices in Switzerland are 82.49% higher than in United States
Local Purchasing Power in Switzerland is 6.53% higher than in United States
So using the higher of the CP and the CP w/rent (most favorable to you), the "high cost of living" you claim is only 77.35%, whereas the difference in wages is 340%, the wage difference in Switzerland exceeds FOUR times Switzerlands higher cost of living.
No its not accurate. Your observations arent accurate because you claim them to be.
We disagree.
Top Schools In Europe
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Heliotrope
- Posts: 1167
- Joined: Sun May 13, 2018 1:48 am
Re: Reply
I didn't say cost of living was 340% higher, I said the minimum wage is a lot higher, and that that indicates the cost of living is higher as well, which you just provided data for.
I find it very amusing that you spend all that time refuting something I didn't say. Thanks for that.
Minimum wage is the US famously is not a living wage, as I mentioned. That's why I also mentioned Australia and The Netherlands, that both have minimum wages that are liveable.
All I'm saying is cost of living is really high in Switzerland. I wouldn't want the OP going there blinded by (some of) the salaries at ISs, only to realize they can't save much or anything there until it's already too late. And as said, this is mostly the case for those with a trailing spouse and kids. If you're single or are part of a teacher couple you'll be ok. But I've heard and read too many stories about ITs not leaving Switzerland with a lot more in their bank account than what they arrived with (also posted by other forum members in the previous topic where savings potential in Switzerland was discussed) to let it go unmentioned.
I've heard local teachers in Switzerland make more money than the ITs, and they're not living a luxurious life.
You have no way of knowing how accurate my observations are. Regarding how often a school has been mentioned as tier 1 they're very accurate. And I'm constantly asking for feedback to improve the list.
But I know you're just trolling, and you're currently not on the paid forum anyway.
Yes.
I find it very amusing that you spend all that time refuting something I didn't say. Thanks for that.
Minimum wage is the US famously is not a living wage, as I mentioned. That's why I also mentioned Australia and The Netherlands, that both have minimum wages that are liveable.
All I'm saying is cost of living is really high in Switzerland. I wouldn't want the OP going there blinded by (some of) the salaries at ISs, only to realize they can't save much or anything there until it's already too late. And as said, this is mostly the case for those with a trailing spouse and kids. If you're single or are part of a teacher couple you'll be ok. But I've heard and read too many stories about ITs not leaving Switzerland with a lot more in their bank account than what they arrived with (also posted by other forum members in the previous topic where savings potential in Switzerland was discussed) to let it go unmentioned.
I've heard local teachers in Switzerland make more money than the ITs, and they're not living a luxurious life.
You have no way of knowing how accurate my observations are. Regarding how often a school has been mentioned as tier 1 they're very accurate. And I'm constantly asking for feedback to improve the list.
But I know you're just trolling, and you're currently not on the paid forum anyway.
Yes.
Reply
@Heliotrope
No you didnt, you wrote "The high minimum wage says something about the very high cost of living.", the VERY high cost. Its not very high, it 77% higher than the US and when considering the vastly greater wage, its cheaper to live in Switzerland, its not very high cost at all its not even double.
I spend the time refuting it, because you wrote it and your wrong.
The ata I provided shows that the cost of living in Switzerland is NOT "very high".
Im saying your wrong, the cost of living in Switzerland is not really high.
That realization your claiming is inaccurate. There are ISs in Switzerland you can save considerably at.
I find you very amusing. ::full stop::
I know and have heard and seen many ITs who are very happy in Switzerland including their bank accounts and their savings.
You mentioned it, but I dont see any offer of proof that the US minimum age is not a livable wage, or that if it isnt a livable wage, its not famous for being an unlivable wage. There are people in the US who do make no more than the federal minimum wage, but there are also a significant number of states with a minimum wage higher than the federal minimum wage (about 30).
Im on the paid forum. Yes I do know. Ive read your list, its inaccurate.
No you didnt, you wrote "The high minimum wage says something about the very high cost of living.", the VERY high cost. Its not very high, it 77% higher than the US and when considering the vastly greater wage, its cheaper to live in Switzerland, its not very high cost at all its not even double.
I spend the time refuting it, because you wrote it and your wrong.
The ata I provided shows that the cost of living in Switzerland is NOT "very high".
Im saying your wrong, the cost of living in Switzerland is not really high.
That realization your claiming is inaccurate. There are ISs in Switzerland you can save considerably at.
I find you very amusing. ::full stop::
I know and have heard and seen many ITs who are very happy in Switzerland including their bank accounts and their savings.
You mentioned it, but I dont see any offer of proof that the US minimum age is not a livable wage, or that if it isnt a livable wage, its not famous for being an unlivable wage. There are people in the US who do make no more than the federal minimum wage, but there are also a significant number of states with a minimum wage higher than the federal minimum wage (about 30).
Im on the paid forum. Yes I do know. Ive read your list, its inaccurate.
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Heliotrope
- Posts: 1167
- Joined: Sun May 13, 2018 1:48 am
Re: Reply
It seems we know different people that have lived or live in Switzerland, with very different experiences.
In the previous topic where this was discussed there were definitely more forum members who have lived there posting a reply saying that said it's hard to save in Switzerland than those who agree with you. Of course not the best sample size, I have to admit. If local teachers make the same or more than international teachers, that's usually a red flag for those wanting to save substantially.
Maybe the US minimum wage will support you if you're single and live in a cheap city or town, but there's a reason why some people have to work two jobs to make rent and eat. It's pretty well-known by expats from other countries at least. Maybe not famous like Taylor Swift, but it's often been mentioned in conversation by non-US expats.
If you're on the paid forum, feel free to contribute to the list there.
In the previous topic where this was discussed there were definitely more forum members who have lived there posting a reply saying that said it's hard to save in Switzerland than those who agree with you. Of course not the best sample size, I have to admit. If local teachers make the same or more than international teachers, that's usually a red flag for those wanting to save substantially.
Maybe the US minimum wage will support you if you're single and live in a cheap city or town, but there's a reason why some people have to work two jobs to make rent and eat. It's pretty well-known by expats from other countries at least. Maybe not famous like Taylor Swift, but it's often been mentioned in conversation by non-US expats.
If you're on the paid forum, feel free to contribute to the list there.
Reply
@Heliotrope
We seem to have different experiences.
It might be a re flag in other countries but Switzerland pays its DTs extremely well.
Some people have to "work two jobs to make rent and eat" because they choose to reside in places like Manhattan and San Francisco.
I do feel free to contribute on the member forum.
We seem to have different experiences.
It might be a re flag in other countries but Switzerland pays its DTs extremely well.
Some people have to "work two jobs to make rent and eat" because they choose to reside in places like Manhattan and San Francisco.
I do feel free to contribute on the member forum.
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Heliotrope
- Posts: 1167
- Joined: Sun May 13, 2018 1:48 am
Re: Reply
Extremely well? Not exactly.
The median Swiss public school teacher salary is 85% of the median salary in Switzerland.
That's less than Belgium, where teachers make 93% of the median Belgian salary.
The rest are indeed a bit below Switzerland: Italy at 81%, Ireland at 80%, Spain at 79%, Portugal at 80%, Germany 75%, Denmark 77%, Sweden 77%, Serbia at 75%, and The Netherlands at a measly 73%.
If you're saying extremely well, you probably meant Finland, where teachers are paid 109% of the median Finnish salary.
International teachers in Switzerland however are paid around 70% of the median Swiss salary.
That's less than the 71% of the French median salary that a teacher in France makes, which is the lowest I could find in Western Europe.
I'm not arguing that teachers at public schools in Switzerland are paid less than their counterparts in the rest of Europe, because they are not, but they are not paid extremely well, and international teachers in Switzerland are paid a lot less than the median Swiss income.
In most other countries in WE you will make a lot more than 70% of the median income in that country.
Feel free to poke holes in this. There might even be a few minor errors, but I think it's safe to say that an IT with a trailing spouse and kids would be wise to avoid Switzerland if savings potential is a priority.
The median Swiss public school teacher salary is 85% of the median salary in Switzerland.
That's less than Belgium, where teachers make 93% of the median Belgian salary.
The rest are indeed a bit below Switzerland: Italy at 81%, Ireland at 80%, Spain at 79%, Portugal at 80%, Germany 75%, Denmark 77%, Sweden 77%, Serbia at 75%, and The Netherlands at a measly 73%.
If you're saying extremely well, you probably meant Finland, where teachers are paid 109% of the median Finnish salary.
International teachers in Switzerland however are paid around 70% of the median Swiss salary.
That's less than the 71% of the French median salary that a teacher in France makes, which is the lowest I could find in Western Europe.
I'm not arguing that teachers at public schools in Switzerland are paid less than their counterparts in the rest of Europe, because they are not, but they are not paid extremely well, and international teachers in Switzerland are paid a lot less than the median Swiss income.
In most other countries in WE you will make a lot more than 70% of the median income in that country.
Feel free to poke holes in this. There might even be a few minor errors, but I think it's safe to say that an IT with a trailing spouse and kids would be wise to avoid Switzerland if savings potential is a priority.
Reply
@@Heliotrope
Yes extremely well. Switzerland pays in general extremely well, and while its proportion of median DT/salary is lower, its overall median is higher. 10% of a watermelon is much more than 100% of a grape, so yes Switzerland pays its DTs extremely well.
Some of the highest paid salaries in all of IE are in Switzerland, given, those ISs are elite boarding ISs.
We disagree.
Yes extremely well. Switzerland pays in general extremely well, and while its proportion of median DT/salary is lower, its overall median is higher. 10% of a watermelon is much more than 100% of a grape, so yes Switzerland pays its DTs extremely well.
Some of the highest paid salaries in all of IE are in Switzerland, given, those ISs are elite boarding ISs.
We disagree.
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Heliotrope
- Posts: 1167
- Joined: Sun May 13, 2018 1:48 am
Re: Reply
PsyGuy wrote:
> @@Heliotrope
>
> Yes extremely well. Switzerland pays in general extremely well, and while
> its proportion of median DT/salary is lower, its overall median is higher.
> 10% of a watermelon is much more than 100% of a grape, so yes Switzerland
> pays its DTs extremely well.
>
> Some of the highest paid salaries in all of IE are in Switzerland, given,
> those ISs are elite boarding ISs.
>
> We disagree.
In absolute terms the salaries for DTs and ITs are high in Switzerland when compared to other countries, but the cost of living will determine how much of that salary you will be able to save, and an IT with a trailing spouse and kids will not save much, if anything, in Switzerland.
Given your logic, I assume you think that a 60,000 USD salary in Singapore will let you save more than a 50,000 USD salary in Pune, India?
> @@Heliotrope
>
> Yes extremely well. Switzerland pays in general extremely well, and while
> its proportion of median DT/salary is lower, its overall median is higher.
> 10% of a watermelon is much more than 100% of a grape, so yes Switzerland
> pays its DTs extremely well.
>
> Some of the highest paid salaries in all of IE are in Switzerland, given,
> those ISs are elite boarding ISs.
>
> We disagree.
In absolute terms the salaries for DTs and ITs are high in Switzerland when compared to other countries, but the cost of living will determine how much of that salary you will be able to save, and an IT with a trailing spouse and kids will not save much, if anything, in Switzerland.
Given your logic, I assume you think that a 60,000 USD salary in Singapore will let you save more than a 50,000 USD salary in Pune, India?
Reply
@Heliotrope
Happy to hear you agree with me.
No, its not just cost of living its how much more (or less) the cost of living is in relation to salary. In Belgium (your only example where DTs made more than Switzerland) the cost in Belgium is 40% lower than Switzerland but the salary is 60% lower than Switzerland, you have more saving potential in Switzerland than you do in Belgium, and its the same for your other examples. Switzerland is the better choice.
Happy to hear you agree with me.
No, its not just cost of living its how much more (or less) the cost of living is in relation to salary. In Belgium (your only example where DTs made more than Switzerland) the cost in Belgium is 40% lower than Switzerland but the salary is 60% lower than Switzerland, you have more saving potential in Switzerland than you do in Belgium, and its the same for your other examples. Switzerland is the better choice.
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Heliotrope
- Posts: 1167
- Joined: Sun May 13, 2018 1:48 am
Re: Reply
I'm not agreeing with you that they are extremely well-paid.
Domestic teachers earn 85% of the median salary in Switzerland, and international teachers are paid only 70% of the median Swiss salary. So you're paid a lot less than a domestic teacher, which is definitely not true in most other European countries.
And from that salary in Switzerland, an IT usually still has to pay rent, the yearly airfare home and national and international medical insurance.
This is why, if you look at what the top ISs in Switzerland say themselves when asked 'Can a family of four make do on one salary?', they answer:
- "Yes with a conservative lifestyle"
- "A challenge"
- "Yes but not easy"
- "Plenty do, but it requires careful planning"
- "No"
- "The ability to 'make' do on one salary depends very much upon the family's lifestyle"
- "This would be very challenging. It is not advised to "make do"on one salary"
The numbers for the savings potential for a single teacher at the top ISs are reported to be between 5000 (lowest) and 8000 USD (highest), although a few ISs didn't report a number.
I'm of the opinion an IT with a trailing spouse and kids will have a very hard time saving a significant amount in Switzerland, and if saving money is high on your list of priorities, that IT would be smart to look elsewhere.
However, if you like hiking, attractive cities, fresh clean air and being at the center of Europe and don't need to save a substantial amount, go for it.
I'll rest my case now, I think people have read enough to reach their own conclusion (if anyone even still cares at this point), and I encourage anyone considering Switzerland to do their own research.
You're of course welcome to reply to the above (I'm 100% sure you can't resist).
We disagree.
Domestic teachers earn 85% of the median salary in Switzerland, and international teachers are paid only 70% of the median Swiss salary. So you're paid a lot less than a domestic teacher, which is definitely not true in most other European countries.
And from that salary in Switzerland, an IT usually still has to pay rent, the yearly airfare home and national and international medical insurance.
This is why, if you look at what the top ISs in Switzerland say themselves when asked 'Can a family of four make do on one salary?', they answer:
- "Yes with a conservative lifestyle"
- "A challenge"
- "Yes but not easy"
- "Plenty do, but it requires careful planning"
- "No"
- "The ability to 'make' do on one salary depends very much upon the family's lifestyle"
- "This would be very challenging. It is not advised to "make do"on one salary"
The numbers for the savings potential for a single teacher at the top ISs are reported to be between 5000 (lowest) and 8000 USD (highest), although a few ISs didn't report a number.
I'm of the opinion an IT with a trailing spouse and kids will have a very hard time saving a significant amount in Switzerland, and if saving money is high on your list of priorities, that IT would be smart to look elsewhere.
However, if you like hiking, attractive cities, fresh clean air and being at the center of Europe and don't need to save a substantial amount, go for it.
I'll rest my case now, I think people have read enough to reach their own conclusion (if anyone even still cares at this point), and I encourage anyone considering Switzerland to do their own research.
You're of course welcome to reply to the above (I'm 100% sure you can't resist).
We disagree.
Reply
@Heliotrope
70% of an orange is still more than 100% of a grape. A 15% difference isnt a "lot" less, its less, just not a lot, but definitions vary.
An IT in the other countries you listed would have to pay rent, airfare, and insurance. Though your just as likely to get a flight to Switzerland as you would be with the rest of the WE. You pay for insurance in the rt of the WE as well, its just assessed differently (taxed as opposed to the consortium approach). A WE IS isnt going to pay your taxes that include your health care.
Most of your quotes are "yes"(6), with 1 no.
That report "5000 (lowest) and 8000 USD (highest)" is from SA.
We have different positions. We disagree.
70% of an orange is still more than 100% of a grape. A 15% difference isnt a "lot" less, its less, just not a lot, but definitions vary.
An IT in the other countries you listed would have to pay rent, airfare, and insurance. Though your just as likely to get a flight to Switzerland as you would be with the rest of the WE. You pay for insurance in the rt of the WE as well, its just assessed differently (taxed as opposed to the consortium approach). A WE IS isnt going to pay your taxes that include your health care.
Most of your quotes are "yes"(6), with 1 no.
That report "5000 (lowest) and 8000 USD (highest)" is from SA.
We have different positions. We disagree.
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Illiane_Blues
Re: Reply
So what you're saying is the self reported savings potential of 5-8K for a single international teacher is in actuality even lower? You previously said those SA numbers "tend to be inflated" and "they have an interest in presenting their IS in as positive a light as possible".
And the schools saying it would challenging to "make do" means you won't save much if anything.
Heliotrope is correct when saying that "an IT with a trailing spouse and kids will have a very hard time saving a significant amount in Switzerland, and if saving money is high on your list of priorities, that IT would be smart to look elsewhere".
And the schools saying it would challenging to "make do" means you won't save much if anything.
Heliotrope is correct when saying that "an IT with a trailing spouse and kids will have a very hard time saving a significant amount in Switzerland, and if saving money is high on your list of priorities, that IT would be smart to look elsewhere".
Reply
@Illiane_Blues
SA numbers tend to be inflated and they have an interest in presenting their IS in as positive a light as possible. The SA range is not the IE range in Switzerland (or anywhere else for that matter).
No, @Heliotrope is not correct, @Heliotrope concussions MAY be accurate for some subset of ITs given certain factors, but its NOT a universal truth or fact. The claims of @Heliotrope MAY be true for some but they are NOT ALWAYS true for all.
SA numbers tend to be inflated and they have an interest in presenting their IS in as positive a light as possible. The SA range is not the IE range in Switzerland (or anywhere else for that matter).
No, @Heliotrope is not correct, @Heliotrope concussions MAY be accurate for some subset of ITs given certain factors, but its NOT a universal truth or fact. The claims of @Heliotrope MAY be true for some but they are NOT ALWAYS true for all.
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Illiane_Blues
Re: Reply
If they present their IS in as positive a light as possible that would mean the actual savings potential is even lower than 5-8K for a single international teacher. This is from the best international schools in Switzerland.
If you're referring to the exclusive boarding schools that you say have the highest salaries: 8 of the 'top 10 most expensive boarding schools in Switzerland' including the two with a 'rose' in their name have reviews on this website and the average score for these schools on "Cost of living in relation to salary" is a very disappointing 3,9 out of a possible 10 based on 38 reviews and those scores are mostly from single teachers because these schools almost never offer free tuition for dependents.
If you bring a trailing spouse and kids then Switzerland is just not a good destination if you want to save a good amount of money.
If you're referring to the exclusive boarding schools that you say have the highest salaries: 8 of the 'top 10 most expensive boarding schools in Switzerland' including the two with a 'rose' in their name have reviews on this website and the average score for these schools on "Cost of living in relation to salary" is a very disappointing 3,9 out of a possible 10 based on 38 reviews and those scores are mostly from single teachers because these schools almost never offer free tuition for dependents.
If you bring a trailing spouse and kids then Switzerland is just not a good destination if you want to save a good amount of money.
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secondplace
- Posts: 191
- Joined: Thu Apr 14, 2016 12:40 pm
Re: Top Schools In Europe
Regards Switzerland - if you're with a non-working spouse and/or children, then you will struggle to save. This is a fact. Doesn't mean you can't have a nice life, but you won't also have significant, or any really, savings.
@psyguy - have you ever worked in CH?
@psyguy - have you ever worked in CH?