How to resign and transfer my visa?

PsyGuy
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Post by PsyGuy »

@Sid

Because you keep writing about them together and equivocating them. You wrote:
"and is no longer cooperating with the employer or the government.", EMPLOYER and government. Youre the one grouping and equivocating the employer and the government as one and the same. You, clearly and repeatedly, you, leadership, you, that is why.
Psychometrika
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Re: How to resign and transfer my visa?

Post by Psychometrika »

By official law once a work permit is canceled the residence permit should be canceled in 10 days. However, like many things in China enforcement is lax and can vary from province to province. This results in many different interpretations but 30 days is often given as an acceptable time frame even though it is not official. Could someone get away with longer? Quite possibly, and I’m sure some have, but you are at the mercy of the system (Or the various levels of guanxi of the parties involved) when you try to get your new work permit.

Of course having an openly hostile former employer who would be more than happy to draw attention to you will only will make things more difficult. Even light research will reveal multitudes of horror stories of those who tried to play fast and loose with the system In China and got burned. China is cracking down on a lot of the cowboy enterprises these days and often the best option is to do everything by the book.
PsyGuy
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Post by PsyGuy »

@Psychometrika

That is not the regulation, nor is there any statutory or legal requirement mandating cancellation of the resident permit within 10 days or any other time period. The resident permit is valid until the date of its expiration regardless of employment status or condition.
Psychometrika
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Re: How to resign and transfer my visa?

Post by Psychometrika »

See here: http://www.gz.gov.cn/guangzhouinternati ... rocedures/

One relevant line: "4. Foreign nationals who are terminating their studies or employment in Guangzhou for any reason should surrender their residence permit and obtain the relevant visa immediately."

Obviously this is Guangzhou's take on it, but rest assured other municiplaities have their own rules.
PsyGuy
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Post by PsyGuy »

@Psychometrika

One relevant line immediately under "residence procedures", "...presenting his or her "Z" visa and his or her "Alien Work Permit" issued by the labor authority or "Foreign Expert Certificate" issued by the Foreign Experts Bureau."
Those distinctions and documents no longer exist, they were dissolved with the 2017 new entry and exit procedures, why might that be?

Because of more relevant note than your line 4 is the following "Copyright © 2010". Your citation is obviously about a decade outdated and thus no longer relevant.

Though Im well assured that other municipalities have just as outdated rules on their web pages.
Psychometrika
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Re: How to resign and transfer my visa?

Post by Psychometrika »

Since I am moving to the region, and I am curious about how this all works, I actually called the Entry and Exit Administration Office of the Guangzhou Public Security Bureau and they confirmed what I thought.

They stated that if you lose your job without another lined up you need to apply for a Stay Permit which would be good for 7-30 days depending on various factors. They said this is necessary because the purpose of your stay has changed and therfore your old residence permit is no longer valid. Then if during that time you find a new employer you can then apply for a new work and residence permit. In any case, you can't just hangout unemployed in Guangzhou for months and expect things to go well.

Also, I asked about transferring a work permit and they said it is best if the new employer initiated the process through SAFEA, but apparently this is fairly complicated and did not want to go over specfic details over the phone and suggested I visit a local district office for help directly relevant to my case.
PsyGuy
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Post by PsyGuy »

@Psychometrika

Since I have zero interest in moving to the area, I called the labor ministry in Beijing, and they confirmed what I have previously stated.
The current resident permit and work permit scheme as they exist now are two entirely different authorizations, one to work, and one to live. The employer can cancel the work permit but PSB labor administration should not cancel the resident permit unless requested to do so by the passport holder for whom the permit was issued too.

What I did find interesting is that as long as your purpose of stay continues to be for "work" as described on the permit, its actually limited to a specific type of work, based on your occupation. If you change occupations than your suppose to leave China and reapply since you would need to have your qualifications for the new occupation assessed and approved before being issued a new Z visa and subsequent work permit. As long as the occupation remains the same as the original job the foreigner needs only obtain a new work permit. They do not have to relinquish the resident permit. Though once they obtain a new work permit and job they may want to surrender the old resident permit and apply for a new one which would more closely align with the new positions contract dates so they can reduce their number of visits and applications, though they do not have to. While in China and job seeking foreigners must continue to follow all laws and debt obligations, failure to do so may be cause for canceling of the resident permit, among other penalties.
PsyGuy
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Post by PsyGuy »

@Psychometrika

BUT even if you were 100% correct, the LW in this scenario is doing exactly the right thing. As you write "They stated that if you lose your job WITHOUT ANOTHER LINED UP you need to apply for a Stay Permit...". In this case thats exactly what the LW has done, found another job and another employer. By your own citation the LW doesnt have to cancel, surrender, transfer or change their resident permit, because even by your standard, they have another offer and position already lined up.
Psychometrika
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Re: How to resign and transfer my visa?

Post by Psychometrika »

The moral of the story is that you need to directly contact your local Exit-Entry Bureau and SAFEA office to find out exactly what applies to you and what you need to do. There is so much misinformation online and enough regional variation that you could find yourself in some serious hot water if you make any assumptions without confirming them first.

By the way the office in Guangzhou (020-12345) had an English line so that wasn’t a barrier. In addition, the woman who answered was friendly and patient with my questions. Way more helpful than my interactions with government offices back in the US at least!
fangpiren
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Re: Reply

Post by fangpiren »

I worked at a school in Shenyang and they refused to pay me my bonus; they paid my summer salary but refused my bonus. I filed a complaint with the labor bureau. The school immediately went to the PSB and without my permission, the PSB cancelled my residence permit and gave me 3 days to leave the country. You have to take Chinese regulations with a grain of salt. The OP would do better to talk to the school admin in a friendly and pleading manner, that will get better results. For example, had I gone to my boss in Shenyang and said hey, I git kids to you know, I probably would have gotten my bonus.



PsyGuy wrote:
> @Psychometrika
>
> Since I have zero interest in moving to the area, I called the labor
> ministry in Beijing, and they confirmed what I have previously stated.
> The current resident permit and work permit scheme as they exist now are
> two entirely different authorizations, one to work, and one to live. The
> employer can cancel the work permit but PSB labor administration should not
> cancel the resident permit unless requested to do so by the passport holder
> for whom the permit was issued too.
>
PsyGuy
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Post by PsyGuy »

How is that the moral of the story? What if the LW is in GZ and is moving to PEK, do you follow the instructions of someone on the phone in GZ or do you listen to the one in PEK. Does moving to PEK sole any and all problems if you move fast enough, do you have to move fast or slow. Do you call another prefecture let them break th tie, what if they give you another different POV.

That is not the moral, you know what the moral is, follow the paper, follow the document. You have an official document in your passport that states you get to live in PRC until X date thats how long you get to stay. Ignore the bunk of leadership and their agenda and what they obviously want, and that the document doesnt matter, and its what the keystrokes do, the document matters. Until someone who is an actual authority stamps void, expired, canceled, etc. or sends you a formal written notice follow the document.
In following the document its probably in the ITs interests to minimize issues early and at all points. Find a new job before quitting or giving notice as opposed to quitting and then looking for a new job.

Moral: As an IT ask yourself whats in your best interests, not the ISs, not the leadership, not the students, not the contract, or some agency, your interests. No one ever thinks of or says how do we put ITs interests at the top of the list, the only one who is going to do that is the IT. So much of the LWs issues would be a non-issue if the LW just asked themselves 'what works out best for me'. Job, new permit, new contract, resign, leave, move, start new job. Done. Everything else is just some leader or cheerleader trying to mitigate losing ITs.
Heliotrope
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Re: How to resign and transfer my visa?

Post by Heliotrope »

My main takeaway would be what @Fangpiren wrote: to take Chinese regulations with a grain of salt.
If a well-connected school wants to hurt you, you might be on a plane days later against your will.
I've heard similar stories. Not from Guangzhou, but from Shanghai and Beijing.
But it might pay off to roll the dice. Just be prepared for it to go sideways, even if the rules would make you think it won't.
China: high risk, high reward.
PsyGuy
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Post by PsyGuy »

@Heliotrope

More a cautionary tale than moral. If ANY IS wants to hurt you, you could be on a plane the next day, thats not exclusive to China. It would be more accurate to claim "take any ASIAN regulations with a grain of salt". You could just as easily have the same issues in Vietnam, Cambodia, Myanmar, Indonesia, Thailand, Taiwan, Philippians, or a number of other locations in the region, again, not exclusive to China.
You should always be prepared for things to go sideways, no matter where you are.
Heliotrope
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Re: Reply

Post by Heliotrope »

@PsyGuy

I didn't say anything about other Asian countries. The OP is in China, so I'm saying he should be careful because he could be on a plane days later against his will. That you can have the same issues elsewhere might be true, but that it's true in China is what's matters for the OP.
I don't think that, if you were sitting next to him on his flight home, it would make him feel less sad if you told him that it could have also happened had he done the same in Vietnam.
shadowjack
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Re: How to resign and transfer my visa?

Post by shadowjack »

So PG, what you are saying is that nothing is certain and it's likely if he upsets his present school they might be quite motivated to have him on a plane.
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