Hello all. First time posting! I've gained so much insight from reading through the forums, so thank you.
I've read lots of posts about M.Ed in Educational Leadership vs. PTC, need for certification, certification through DC, etc. They have been extremely helpful, but I'm at an impasse, and I think I need some thoughts/advice on my particular situation. This is really long, so if you make to the end and actually reply, I thank you in advance!
I have:
10 years experience as an elementary teacher in international schools
Masters in Teaching with US certification in Oregon
BA in English
I've only worked in 2 schools. I've been at my current school for 9 years which means I've only really worked in ONE school. (I stayed a lot longer than I originally planned because I ended up meeting my husband and having two kids).
My school is very small. I've been one to jump on board with whatever has been needed, volunteering for committees, piloting new initiatives, serving as a "middle-level leader", etc. I've realized, however, that my school is so small, that "middle-level leader" (a position with such a small stipend that it's basically like volunteering) really doesn't mean anything in terms of building leadership experience (at least that's the impression I get from these forums). I serve in a advising compacity to admin only. I work on one-off projects, help coordinate faculty PD, and do some parent outreach. However, in terms of advancing into leadership based on experience, this doesn't seem to be worth much.
QUESTION 1: I'm interested in taking the next steps needed to be prepared to apply for assistant principal, and eventually principal positions at other schools. I will continue to serve in my role as Middle Level Leader at my current school, but without a defined position with FTE and people who report to me, it seems my best option is to just get the M.Ed. in Leadership, and cert. and go from there. True? Or am I missing something?
QUESTION 2: Program selection-- Does it really matter where I get the degree (as long as I value the experience and it prepares me well enough to sit for a cert exam)?
I could take an online M.S. in Educational Leadership with either Arkansas State or another lesser known program through St. Thomas University in Florida. Both are accredited regionally. Both offer paths to certification provided you take the exams. I'm looking at these two programs because it seems to be important that A.) an Online program is from a brick & mortar institution, B.) it's regionally accredited C.) You can get the license in the end, otherwise it's just another degree. These two programs are the only ones (other than Teach-Now which I'm not interested in as it's for-profit and an online-only school) which seem open to teachers working internationally and allow you to do the field experience component in your own school. They are also both under $20,000. Neither one are "great schools", just average. I'd love to go to Harvard, but that's financially out of reach. I've researched probably 30 or more programs, and this is my conclusion.
In the end, from reading posts, getting your first job in admin is the hardest, and biggest leap. Every IS wants experienced administrators, so with only a degree, it's difficult, and you will need to work your way up (I get that). Also, from the forums, it seems, unless you go to Harvard, or Stanford, it really doesn't matter. If you get the certification, you have certification and where you got your masters isn't considered in recruiting. Is that true? I ask because neither AState or the St. Thomas program are schools known for education, but the online programs are doable while overseas. The St. Thomas University program would help me apply for a Florida license which I think could be useful in the future.
If anyone wants access to my spreadsheet of online master's in ed leadership program details and certification information, just let me know. I can post a link.
QUESTION 3: Is there a stigma in recruiting around the Washington DC license?
I've read that DC is a clearinghouse for international teachers because you can get an initial administrator cert without even taking the test. But is it better, more respected, to be certified in one of the 50 states? Will recruiters and schools care over time, as (hopefully), I move up into leadership if my certification is from Florida, DC or Tenessee, for example?
QUESTION 4: Am I actually going about this all wrong? Is this really the best path to becoming a principal in an international school? I want to leave as many doors open as is possible. Yet, are there other paths I'm not thinking of? Specialist degrees, certifications? I don't care about price (within reason). I'm trying to figure out a reasonable path based on my circumstances. I'm leaning toward the M.Ed right now because it feels like a good time family-wise to make that kind of commitment in time and money.
Any insights are appreciated! I hope everyone is staying safe, and as sane as possible with our current circumstance in the world.
Thanks.
Moving into Leadership, Higher Education Questions
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AllThingsEdu
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- Joined: Tue Jul 21, 2020 11:12 am
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AllThingsEdu
- Posts: 8
- Joined: Tue Jul 21, 2020 11:12 am
Re: Moving into Leadership, Higher Education Questions
I need to update as one thing I said is incorrect.
Arkansas State is nationally accredited through CAEP, not regionally accredited.
After all my rambling, I'm most interested in question 3: Is there any stigma associated with a DC cert. in administration? For schools and recruiters?
I think I've found the answers to some of the other questions in the forum. I wish I could edit my post to avoid repetition. I really overdid it with a long, multi-question post.
Arkansas State is nationally accredited through CAEP, not regionally accredited.
After all my rambling, I'm most interested in question 3: Is there any stigma associated with a DC cert. in administration? For schools and recruiters?
I think I've found the answers to some of the other questions in the forum. I wish I could edit my post to avoid repetition. I really overdid it with a long, multi-question post.
Response
To start, getting your first job in admin is the hardest, and biggest leap, "middle-level leader" as you have described it really isnt worth anything. It junior leadership, along the same cluster as a coordinator would be. Leadership (senior) roles are defined by reports, peer deliverables, and resource budgeting and allocation, you dont do any of that. Youre an IT with the ear of leadership, this isnt worth much.
There are 3 general avenues into leadership:
1) Grow In: You start at an IS as an IT, you work well with leadership, parents and ownership, and then when there is an opening you get the job because ownership trusts you and leadership and parents like you. This pathway is faster at lower tier ISs, where there is a lot of turnover and longevity often means your only one of the few staff to renew.
2) Work In: You get a M.Ed in Ed.Ld, you add a credential, you build some leadership or management experience and you work your way up into leadership. This may and often requires some work in DE. This is the pathway that accounts for the majority of leadership. Candidates were leadership in DE, and they were hired as leadership in IE.
3) Edge In: You make friends and build a network, maybe you marry into, but someone in ownership likes you and gives you the job, or someone in leadership helps you get into the job. This is the least common path into leadership.
Youre on the right path to growing in, but it sounds like unless your current leadership moves on in one way or another youve hit the ceiling. Have you talked with your leadership about real advancement or the position you got was basically their way of placating you the last time you talked?
Have you considered opening your own IS or ES? You teach primary and youre in a very small IS, you may have realized that there isnt much to your IS as it is. Even without financial partner renting an office suite for an ES and using the offices as classrooms, a common area and reception isnt that much harder than renting an apartment. You can then grow a little bit and create the reports, the budgeting and peer deliverables in your own business. There has been an increase in the lower tier of IE where those management and business skills are more important and marketable than the edu stuff.
If youre not going to a global ivy than it doesnt really matter where you graduate from. I dont see how you need another masters. Now a doctorate is more marketable than a masters in leadership.
Something like the Harvard Certificate in School Management and Leadership (CSML) is 4 courses and would cost about USD$2K. It gives you the business academics and a nice pretty certificate from Harvard that has real utility. There are third tier ISs that will give you the keys having something from Harvard.
Combine that with either a DC administrative credential and/or the MA superintendent credential and thats marketable on top of your decade of experience.
You do not need to compete an APP/NPQ program to obtain a credential. They are available at the senior level from DC and executive level from MA without them.
Uni. Portsmouth has a fully accredited, online Ed.Ld Masters that are about USD$9000.
DC is/was a clearinghouse for ITs. Yes, you can obtain the initial administration credential without competing the exam.
There is some stigma but its less about being from DC and more about what did you do to get qualified. Do you know anything, have you done anything, is all you did was take some exams to get youre credential? Thats the stigma when you get a resume or an applicant who has a credential but no background to support EARNING it.
Overtime it doesnt matter, what youve done in ISs and in edu is far more marketable and with greater utility than your original education (unless you went to a Global Ivy). If anywhere, CA would have an edge.
There are 3 general avenues into leadership:
1) Grow In: You start at an IS as an IT, you work well with leadership, parents and ownership, and then when there is an opening you get the job because ownership trusts you and leadership and parents like you. This pathway is faster at lower tier ISs, where there is a lot of turnover and longevity often means your only one of the few staff to renew.
2) Work In: You get a M.Ed in Ed.Ld, you add a credential, you build some leadership or management experience and you work your way up into leadership. This may and often requires some work in DE. This is the pathway that accounts for the majority of leadership. Candidates were leadership in DE, and they were hired as leadership in IE.
3) Edge In: You make friends and build a network, maybe you marry into, but someone in ownership likes you and gives you the job, or someone in leadership helps you get into the job. This is the least common path into leadership.
Youre on the right path to growing in, but it sounds like unless your current leadership moves on in one way or another youve hit the ceiling. Have you talked with your leadership about real advancement or the position you got was basically their way of placating you the last time you talked?
Have you considered opening your own IS or ES? You teach primary and youre in a very small IS, you may have realized that there isnt much to your IS as it is. Even without financial partner renting an office suite for an ES and using the offices as classrooms, a common area and reception isnt that much harder than renting an apartment. You can then grow a little bit and create the reports, the budgeting and peer deliverables in your own business. There has been an increase in the lower tier of IE where those management and business skills are more important and marketable than the edu stuff.
If youre not going to a global ivy than it doesnt really matter where you graduate from. I dont see how you need another masters. Now a doctorate is more marketable than a masters in leadership.
Something like the Harvard Certificate in School Management and Leadership (CSML) is 4 courses and would cost about USD$2K. It gives you the business academics and a nice pretty certificate from Harvard that has real utility. There are third tier ISs that will give you the keys having something from Harvard.
Combine that with either a DC administrative credential and/or the MA superintendent credential and thats marketable on top of your decade of experience.
You do not need to compete an APP/NPQ program to obtain a credential. They are available at the senior level from DC and executive level from MA without them.
Uni. Portsmouth has a fully accredited, online Ed.Ld Masters that are about USD$9000.
DC is/was a clearinghouse for ITs. Yes, you can obtain the initial administration credential without competing the exam.
There is some stigma but its less about being from DC and more about what did you do to get qualified. Do you know anything, have you done anything, is all you did was take some exams to get youre credential? Thats the stigma when you get a resume or an applicant who has a credential but no background to support EARNING it.
Overtime it doesnt matter, what youve done in ISs and in edu is far more marketable and with greater utility than your original education (unless you went to a Global Ivy). If anywhere, CA would have an edge.
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AllThingsEdu
- Posts: 8
- Joined: Tue Jul 21, 2020 11:12 am
Re: Moving into Leadership, Higher Education Questions
Wow, that's a lot to think about! Thank you for taking the time to respond so thoroughly. I suppose I assumed that the MA. Ed. L would at least help provide me the book knowledge to get started, but if the Harvard CAEL can do the same thing, perhaps that makes more sense both in content and financially.
I have really good leadership at my school. It's maybe a tier 2 school (depending on your definition, pay not being the defining factor) with 400 kids normally but enrollment has dropped a bit. My principal is very supportive, but of course, these are trying times with a lot of uncertainty. We will be virtual likely for the first semester.
I have a colleague who is doing the Harvard CAEL and says it's really good. I didn't realize you could get the 2 yr DC cert without the masters specifically in Ed. L.
Thanks again.
I have really good leadership at my school. It's maybe a tier 2 school (depending on your definition, pay not being the defining factor) with 400 kids normally but enrollment has dropped a bit. My principal is very supportive, but of course, these are trying times with a lot of uncertainty. We will be virtual likely for the first semester.
I have a colleague who is doing the Harvard CAEL and says it's really good. I didn't realize you could get the 2 yr DC cert without the masters specifically in Ed. L.
Thanks again.
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AllThingsEdu
- Posts: 8
- Joined: Tue Jul 21, 2020 11:12 am
Re: Response
PsyGuy wrote:
> (CSML) is 4 courses and would cost about USD$2K. It gives you the business
> academics and a nice pretty certificate from Harvard that has real utility.
I realize now that I missed the letters here. My colleague is taking CAEL which appears to be more generally about leadership, curriculum and the human side. Where as the Csml is more geared toward the business side. I confused them.
Everything you wrote makes a lot of sense. I think I'm beginning to formulate a new plan.
Since I already have the masters, I believe, content knowledge in specific areas may actually serve me better. I could take a sequence of certificate programs, that would help give me the book knowledge in 2 or so desirable areas, such as Sp.Ed., STEAM, ESOL, and numeracy, or literacy, etc. Then I could end with the Harvard Csml, and apply for the cert before looking for jobs.
My thinking is that I could apply then for asst principal or principal at a tier 3 school, and also instructional coaching positions. I'm interested in the coaching type position too, although I understand it's not necessarily a step toward principal.
We all have our motivation for advancement. Mine are twofold. First, I love teaching and learning. I love teachers. I want to make a difference in a community. And I think I could be a good principal eventually with experience. Second, I love working internationally. I have two kids and a nonteaching spouse, however. As an IT, I feel like my career is pretty dead. It will be very hard for us to move on. I've always wanted to work in more schools, we just got waylaid. And now, my benefits are running out, so I'd really like to move on.
Does this seem like a reasonable plan?
> (CSML) is 4 courses and would cost about USD$2K. It gives you the business
> academics and a nice pretty certificate from Harvard that has real utility.
I realize now that I missed the letters here. My colleague is taking CAEL which appears to be more generally about leadership, curriculum and the human side. Where as the Csml is more geared toward the business side. I confused them.
Everything you wrote makes a lot of sense. I think I'm beginning to formulate a new plan.
Since I already have the masters, I believe, content knowledge in specific areas may actually serve me better. I could take a sequence of certificate programs, that would help give me the book knowledge in 2 or so desirable areas, such as Sp.Ed., STEAM, ESOL, and numeracy, or literacy, etc. Then I could end with the Harvard Csml, and apply for the cert before looking for jobs.
My thinking is that I could apply then for asst principal or principal at a tier 3 school, and also instructional coaching positions. I'm interested in the coaching type position too, although I understand it's not necessarily a step toward principal.
We all have our motivation for advancement. Mine are twofold. First, I love teaching and learning. I love teachers. I want to make a difference in a community. And I think I could be a good principal eventually with experience. Second, I love working internationally. I have two kids and a nonteaching spouse, however. As an IT, I feel like my career is pretty dead. It will be very hard for us to move on. I've always wanted to work in more schools, we just got waylaid. And now, my benefits are running out, so I'd really like to move on.
Does this seem like a reasonable plan?
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math-teacher
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- Joined: Tue Jun 12, 2018 6:48 am
Re: Moving into Leadership, Higher Education Questions
Could you post the link to the spreadsheet?
Reply
@AllThingsEdu
You can get the DC leadership credential with any Masters. There used to be some confusion at one point in the past, but that is no longer the case.
Well the Harvard CSML certificate also has an advantageous marketability factor.
What is your goal. The certificate programs in SPED/SEN/LD, ESOL, STEM, Numeracy/Literacy, thoe are classroom IT descriptors, they arent applicable to leadership, except in some very narrow tasking positions, most of which are in junior leadership. They sound more like what a Uni advisor would say in their sales pitch to well, any problem, can be addressed or soled by more study and coursework. If you were an IT stuck for a decade in an IS with vanishing benefits and opportunities and you just wanted to get out, and you wanted to maximize your marketability in a new job and the efficacy, coin and resources didnt matter much, then those would be reasonable pursuits, but not for transitioning into leadership. For leadership moving into a new IS that was a FTE classroom position, the loss of the "middle leader" title and responsibility you have now would be a loss.
If leadership is where you want to go you dont need to do anything now accept:
1) Apply for the initial DC administrative credential.
2) Apply for the MA Provisional Superintendent credential; This requires completion of the MTEL communication literacy exam, three years edu experience and a bachelors degree. Together these will cover both senior and executive level leadership positions.
3) During the next two years take the SLLA exam, then at the end of the two years apply to transition to the DC standard administrative credential.
Thats four years for a total of 6 years before you have to complete PD allowing you to figure out what your worth and if any IS wants you.
4) You can then determine the value of a Ed.Ld Masters or the Harvard CSML certificate before you have to renew the DC credential.
You can get the DC leadership credential with any Masters. There used to be some confusion at one point in the past, but that is no longer the case.
Well the Harvard CSML certificate also has an advantageous marketability factor.
What is your goal. The certificate programs in SPED/SEN/LD, ESOL, STEM, Numeracy/Literacy, thoe are classroom IT descriptors, they arent applicable to leadership, except in some very narrow tasking positions, most of which are in junior leadership. They sound more like what a Uni advisor would say in their sales pitch to well, any problem, can be addressed or soled by more study and coursework. If you were an IT stuck for a decade in an IS with vanishing benefits and opportunities and you just wanted to get out, and you wanted to maximize your marketability in a new job and the efficacy, coin and resources didnt matter much, then those would be reasonable pursuits, but not for transitioning into leadership. For leadership moving into a new IS that was a FTE classroom position, the loss of the "middle leader" title and responsibility you have now would be a loss.
If leadership is where you want to go you dont need to do anything now accept:
1) Apply for the initial DC administrative credential.
2) Apply for the MA Provisional Superintendent credential; This requires completion of the MTEL communication literacy exam, three years edu experience and a bachelors degree. Together these will cover both senior and executive level leadership positions.
3) During the next two years take the SLLA exam, then at the end of the two years apply to transition to the DC standard administrative credential.
Thats four years for a total of 6 years before you have to complete PD allowing you to figure out what your worth and if any IS wants you.
4) You can then determine the value of a Ed.Ld Masters or the Harvard CSML certificate before you have to renew the DC credential.
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AllThingsEdu
- Posts: 8
- Joined: Tue Jul 21, 2020 11:12 am
Re: Moving into Leadership, Higher Education Questions
Thanks. Solid advice. I've decided to do the CSML course regardless. It'll be helpful, I hope, and I can take my time in the next two years to complete the 4 modules.
I'm will also likely go the DC, exam route. I can see and understand it's your ability to actually lead that really matters. And experience is more valuable than a $16,000 2nd masters. I think aptitude and attitude also matter. I'm the kind of person who gets stuck in, and reasons through, learns from mistakes, and I've picked up a lot through my relationships simply because I look for the opportunities.
As for ESOL, STEM, etc. What you say makes sense. We'll see. I'm interested for my own growth too. But it will come down to time and money, as most things do.
This summer has been a real kick in the pants. Not only for obvious reasons, but it's important to realize where you are in life, be realistic, but also hopeful, then take the next logical step... That hopefully won't put you in debt.
Cheers!
I'm will also likely go the DC, exam route. I can see and understand it's your ability to actually lead that really matters. And experience is more valuable than a $16,000 2nd masters. I think aptitude and attitude also matter. I'm the kind of person who gets stuck in, and reasons through, learns from mistakes, and I've picked up a lot through my relationships simply because I look for the opportunities.
As for ESOL, STEM, etc. What you say makes sense. We'll see. I'm interested for my own growth too. But it will come down to time and money, as most things do.
This summer has been a real kick in the pants. Not only for obvious reasons, but it's important to realize where you are in life, be realistic, but also hopeful, then take the next logical step... That hopefully won't put you in debt.
Cheers!
Reply
@AllThingsEdu
You cant really take your time in the CSML. This is their first year cohort, so it might change, but the intent of the program design is you do the first three modules in summer 1, then use the upcoming year to put into practice with refection in module 4 during summer 2. So that first summer your pretty busy.
The DC credential you can apply for now and have it in hand by October when when the SA global fair happens and ISs are looking for entry level leadership. Combine that with your middle leadership experience currently, that you can spin and you present as a reasonable candidate for an entry senior leadership position.
If you do decide on a Ed.Ld Masters, Uni. Portsmouth (UK) has a under USD$10K online M.Sc in Ed.Ld.
You cant really take your time in the CSML. This is their first year cohort, so it might change, but the intent of the program design is you do the first three modules in summer 1, then use the upcoming year to put into practice with refection in module 4 during summer 2. So that first summer your pretty busy.
The DC credential you can apply for now and have it in hand by October when when the SA global fair happens and ISs are looking for entry level leadership. Combine that with your middle leadership experience currently, that you can spin and you present as a reasonable candidate for an entry senior leadership position.
If you do decide on a Ed.Ld Masters, Uni. Portsmouth (UK) has a under USD$10K online M.Sc in Ed.Ld.
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AllThingsEdu
- Posts: 8
- Joined: Tue Jul 21, 2020 11:12 am
Re: Moving into Leadership, Higher Education Questions
Since I jumped in late, I'm taking the 2nd one, leading change. However, they state you can take them in any order.
The last one leading learning, isn't scheduled to be released until summer 2021.
All the courses after this one are currently scheduled for the same dates in October. So I'm hoping they will not expect us to do two at once. We'll see.
https://www.gse.harvard.edu/ppe/program ... leadership.
I don't know if I'll be looking for 2021-22 as the market may be very unstable for a while. Again, we will see!
I'll keep uni portsmouth in mind.
Your responses and reading through forums has been incredibly helpful. Thanks again!
Thanks!
The last one leading learning, isn't scheduled to be released until summer 2021.
All the courses after this one are currently scheduled for the same dates in October. So I'm hoping they will not expect us to do two at once. We'll see.
https://www.gse.harvard.edu/ppe/program ... leadership.
I don't know if I'll be looking for 2021-22 as the market may be very unstable for a while. Again, we will see!
I'll keep uni portsmouth in mind.
Your responses and reading through forums has been incredibly helpful. Thanks again!
Thanks!
Reply
@AllThingsEdu
You can take them in any order, but as the first cohort, they were only available in successive order, but they arent sequentially paced. The only real issue is you cant do them all at once in one summer or other term, they are designed with having a period of practice and reflection before completing the program.
Ther isnt a requirement you do multiple modules within the same scheduling period.
You can take them in any order, but as the first cohort, they were only available in successive order, but they arent sequentially paced. The only real issue is you cant do them all at once in one summer or other term, they are designed with having a period of practice and reflection before completing the program.
Ther isnt a requirement you do multiple modules within the same scheduling period.