and it continues

BM12
Posts: 23
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 2010 2:16 pm

Re: and it continues

Post by BM12 »

Fangpiren, are you really saying those camps are detention centers? And if they are, then it is fine? So harvesting organs, forced sterilizations, forced marriages and all is perfectly normal?

Also, your whole reply is the best example of whataboutism I have seen in a long time. You are not arguing or refuting any of the points made but just want to point to bad things that might be happening in America? All you are saying is 'look at your own country'. Is that how you usually react to valid points being made?
fangpiren
Posts: 28
Joined: Sat Jul 18, 2020 3:34 am

Re: and it continues

Post by fangpiren »

[quote=BM12 post_id=59294 time=1595225154 user_id=27036]
Fangpiren, are you really saying those camps are detention centers? And if they are, then it is fine? So harvesting organs, forced sterilizations, forced marriages and all is perfectly normal?

Also, your whole reply is the best example of whataboutism I have seen in a long time. You are not arguing or refuting any of the points made but just want to point to bad things that might be happening in America? All you are saying is 'look at your own country'. Is that how you usually react to valid points being made?
[/quote]

Yes I am really saying those camps are detention centers and not concentration camps and I’ve seen no evidence of organs being harvested or forced sterilization or forced marriages. I am refuting those points. I also added that the detention centers in the States holding thousands of children that were separated from their families, a crime by the way, are more like actual concentration camps. Finally I also said that I feel safer in China than in America.

As to “whataboutism” let me rephrase it like this: IF there is a point to be made about human rights in China, then an American is the LAST person that should make it.
Heliotrope
Posts: 1167
Joined: Sun May 13, 2018 1:48 am

Re: and it continues

Post by Heliotrope »

I agree with @BM12 that China is a deeply flawed country, and I hope its current government will be overthrown and replaced with one that puts its people's interest first.
And I agree with @Fangpiren that the US is a deeply flawed country, and I hope its current government will be voted out and replaced with one that puts its people's interest first.

But yes, @Fangpiren's whataboutism makes for a poor argument.
Heliotrope
Posts: 1167
Joined: Sun May 13, 2018 1:48 am

Re: and it continues

Post by Heliotrope »

fangpiren wrote:
> As to “whataboutism” let me rephrase it like this: IF there is a point to
> be made about human rights in China, then an American is the LAST person
> that should make it.

I think you're perhaps confusing 'an American' with 'the American government'.
vandsmith
Posts: 348
Joined: Sat Oct 25, 2014 12:16 am

Re: and it continues

Post by vandsmith »

fangpiren wrote:
> [quote=TheHuman post_id=59292 time=1595216826 user_id=250723]
> @fangpiren There are millions of Uyghur people in concentration camps in
> China being tortured, sterilized, and forced to work that would disagree
> with you. There are millions of people in HK that have suddenly lost their
> freedom of speech that would also disagree with you. India, and a host of
> other SEA countries that have recently had their land stolen by China would
> also disagree. I lived in China for years and just recently returned to the
> US. While I do miss a lot about China, I do not miss the fear of exit bans
> or arbitrary arrest. I would never post this while I was still living in
> China, as I could be arrested. I personally knew people who were exit
> banned from China through no fault of their own. As a person living in
> China, you have no choice but to post positive things as you could also be
> arrested.
> [/quote]
>
> I think we got a tRumpster on board! Like a tRumpster, this fool just makes
> shit up and gives no thought to what’s he’s saying.
>
> First of all, regarding the Uyghurs, as an American you really do need to
> keep your mouth shut when the issue of human rights comes up. Our country
> was founded on 400 years of slavery, oppression, genocide and non-stop war
> mongering. Americans are literally the last people on Earth that get to
> call out other countries on human rights violations. Second of all,
> regarding the Uyghurs, they are not in concentration camps, they are in
> detention centers and the conditions in those centers, from everything that
> I have seen, are very humane. Are
> you trying to draw similarities between Nazi concentration camps and
> detention centers? If you are, you would do better to comparing them to
> America’s detention centers where we still have thousands of children in
> cages that have been separated from their parents.
>
> Regarding Hong Kong and their lost freedom of speech, again look at your
> own country. Peaceful protesters were scattered by the presidents security
> personnel because he wanted to have a photo op at a church. Protesters in
> Oregon are being snatched off the streets by goons in unmarked cars. Insult
> a judge in America and you face jail time. Not to mention the 2,000,000
> Americans in our for profit prisons who lost the most fundamental act of
> free speech, the right to vote.
>
> Regarding SEA land grabs - and once again, look to your own country. Our
> entire homeland was one massive land grab. Who are you to now point a
> finger at China and accuse them stealing sovereign territory.
>
> Last of all “the fear” you mention - what exactly are you talking about? I
> walk down dark alleys in China that I wouldn’t dare look down in America. I
> dare not make eye contact with cops in America for fear of a slap to the
> head but I have read cops in China the riot act more than once. The Chinese
> are the most fear-free people I know. They are loud, opinionated and they
> advocate for themselves as much as any free people I’ve ever met. Maybe
> this “fear” you have when you are in China has more to do with your
> xenophobia than anything else.
>
> For myself, I speak my mind wherever I am in China, probably too much so,
> and I do call them out on their bullshit whenever I see it. It don’t scare
> me none.

well the hypocrisy is noted but does that really mean no one can speak up on injustice or fear tactics or authoritarianism if their home country is also guilty of those things? you're more than welcome to read the riot act (wtf?) to chinese cops, though i'm not certain why they'd care. in addition, not really sure why you'd want to run the risk of being arrested.

again, not sure why this becomes a measuring contest of abuses against citizens? there is no question china has created these detention/re-education centers for this minority of people and religion. "very humane"? as opposed to what? even if they're posh, upscale mansions they are still trying to eradicate and bring in line a whole group of people, banning the growth of long beards and demolishing mosques. it's completely okay to recognize the problems in one's home country and in another country.

anyways, i'd question who is/was the real trumpster here since it seems like you are making excuses for china. every state makes their own way with their own actions, but those actions are open to scrutiny - even on a tiny forum like this.

v.
fangpiren
Posts: 28
Joined: Sat Jul 18, 2020 3:34 am

Re: and it continues

Post by fangpiren »

vandsmith wrote:
>
> well the hypocrisy is noted but does that really mean no one can speak up on
> injustice or fear tactics or authoritarianism if their home country is also guilty of
> those things? you're more than welcome to read the riot act (wtf?) to chinese cops,
> though i'm not certain why they'd care. in addition, not really sure why you'd want
> to run the risk of being arrested.
>

My point was, there was no risk of me being arrested because in China, unlike in America, you can confront the police in an assesrtive manner without fear of a beating and an arrest. Of course you need to be civilized but that doesn’t mean you can’t be firm, somewhat and assertive. The context was getting my family visa renewed and both my wife and I let them know that it was taking too long; my Chinese wife was definitely louder than me. In America, she would have been body slammed and arrested.

> again, not sure why this becomes a measuring contest of abuses against citizens?
> there is no question china has created these detention/re-education centers for this
> minority of people and religion. "very humane"? as opposed to what? even
> if they're posh, upscale mansions they are still trying to eradicate and bring in
> line a whole group of people, banning the growth of long beards and demolishing
> mosques. it's completely okay to recognize the problems in one's home country and in
> another country.
>

The reason I initially posted and created a moniker especially for The Human was because he compared the detention centers to Nazi concentration camps, with forced sterilization and organs being harvested. Patently untrue or at least unproven. Are the centers humane? Compared to where we are housing thousands of children that were separated from their parents then yes, very humane.

> anyways, i'd question who is/was the real trumpster here since it seems like you are
> making excuses for china. every state makes their own way with their own actions,
> but those actions are open to scrutiny - even on a tiny forum like this.
>
> v.

What excuses am I making for China? These endless accusations made over and over again of forced sterilizations, organ harvesting, forced marriages and all without proof is exactly how Trump and his ilk operate.

Now is the time for all good men to clean their own backyard, as Nicholas Cage once said. Cleanup your own mess before pointing fingers at China. That’s not an apology for China, that’s just good manners.
fine dude
Posts: 651
Joined: Tue Dec 18, 2012 7:12 pm
Location: SE Asia

Re: and it continues

Post by fine dude »

Before this post loses direction, just want to say everyone here has different priorities. Some go to China to break into admin/an AP/IB school or save big for retirement or even for finding a spouse/cultural reasons. China is now the new Middle East from a financial perspective. There is another group that wants to make good money, grow their career with considerable personal freedom where their actions aren't constantly scrutinised. There is also a third group that places a far greater premium on travel experiences than just building a nest egg or career. To each his/her own.
fangpiren
Posts: 28
Joined: Sat Jul 18, 2020 3:34 am

Re: and it continues

Post by fangpiren »

fine dude wrote:
> Before this post loses direction, just want to say everyone here has
> different priorities. Some go to China to break into admin/an AP/IB school
> or save big for retirement or even for finding a spouse/cultural reasons.
> China is now the new Middle East from a financial perspective. There is
> another group that wants to make good money, grow their career with
> considerable personal freedom where their actions aren't constantly
> scrutinised. There is also a third group that places a far greater premium
> on travel experiences than just building a nest egg or career. To each
> his/her own.

I agree that there are tremendous and varied opportunities in China for international school teachers. I just never felt that I was being scrutinized or that my personal freedoms were somehow limited. I’ve had nothing but a hoot in China over the years and I doubt the Chinese authorities have been scrutinizing me that close. If they been, I’d have been booted out years ago.
t_rock
Posts: 18
Joined: Mon Feb 03, 2020 12:45 am

Re: and it continues

Post by t_rock »

The Chinese people are mostly good. The Chinese Communist P@rty is evil incarnate and I hope it is soon overthrown. To compare the US history of slavery and killing of the natives centuries ago to the CCP's ideology today is absurd.
Heliotrope
Posts: 1167
Joined: Sun May 13, 2018 1:48 am

Re: and it continues

Post by Heliotrope »

There's nothing humane about the camps in Xinjiang.
Saying that there are examples of even less humane circumstances elsewhere is a very weak argument.
These are camps where about a million people - mostly from the Muslim Uighur community - are being detained without trial.
There are enough thorough reports that the Chinese government is forcing Uighur women to be sterilised or fitted with contraceptive devices. Do a simple Google search and you will find them on credible news sources.

And that's just one example of the many terrible things the Chinese government does, in Xinjiang and elsewhere.

I'm not saying that should stop anyone from working in China. I've worked in a country where the government does almost equally evil things. I understand why people would not be deterred from working in such countries , although nowadays I won't choose to do so again as I don't want to teach the kids of the people in charge in those countries.
It's ok to admit the Chinese government does these things and still feel comfortable working in China. There would be very few countries left to work in if you're looking for one where the government does noting wrong (Iceland perhaps?)
Just don't say that nothing terrible is happening in Xinjiang in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary.
That the US is doing terrible things as well and that the Holocaust was even worse doesn't diminish that fact.

Also, didn't the Chinese arrest a couple of random Canadians after Meng Wanzhou (Huawei executive) was arrested in Canada?

And no, we don't have to wait until the US government stops misbehaving before we can point fingers at China.
And I'm also pointing fingers at the US government.
secondplace
Posts: 191
Joined: Thu Apr 14, 2016 12:40 pm

Re: and it continues

Post by secondplace »

When I left China after a decade I really wanted a PSB agent to come up to me as I got into the car to go to the airport for last time, and hand me a dossier of all the places I'd been, all the drinks I'd had etc. etc.

Sadly, this didn't come to pass...
TheHuman
Posts: 27
Joined: Sat Apr 18, 2020 9:56 am

Re: and it continues

Post by TheHuman »

When considering where China's values lie, all one has to do is look at the person on their paper currency, a man who killed more people than Hitler. The fact that China is responsible for the largest mass murder in the world is not up for debate. Neither is the fact that they continue to commit genocide to this day. China truly is the ultimate evil. They are also responsible for unleashing the worst pandemic in 100 years on the world, something that has tarnished their prized reputation greatly.

There were also the day to day annoyances like not having access to clean air, water, or food, avoiding getting run over by ebikes on the sidewalks, dodging puddles of urine (sometimes feces) from children whose parents and grandparents encouraged such behavior, butting in line, smoking everywhere, horrible and dangerous drivers, and arbitrary and random enforcement of laws. If you go outside of the 1st tier cities, most of China is a 3rd world country.

I won't deny that China is a lucrative place to work. It is also getting increasingly aggressive. It's possible that they could invade Taiwan or get into a skirmish in the South China Sea soon. If either of those things happen, what do you think would happen to Americans living in China? I wouldn't want to find out.
PsyGuy
Posts: 10789
Joined: Wed Oct 12, 2011 9:51 am
Location: Northern Europe

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Post by PsyGuy »

We live in interesting times.
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