Admin role

fine dude
Posts: 651
Joined: Tue Dec 18, 2012 7:12 pm
Location: SE Asia

Admin role

Post by fine dude »

Looking at how teachers have stepped up and carried along in the past 3-4 months without much guidance from principals and assistant principals, do you all think some admin positions in schools will be made redundant, especially when they are clueless and ask for teachers help to figure out technicalities? Is it time to cut the bureaucratic flab in schools?
sciteach
Posts: 258
Joined: Sat Dec 13, 2014 7:49 am

Re: Admin role

Post by sciteach »

As a person who has dipped their toe into training other teachers - I can say that it's not a fun job and actually I find that the worst students are actually teachers. I don't like being told what to do - I like telling others what to do.

I don't know what your current school has done - but I would not want to be in charge of a school at the moment. You have pissed off, nervous and scared staff. You have pissed off, nervous and scared teachers. Many governments are changing expectations daily so it's impossible to forward plan. Parents are looking at removing students out of the school. Staff want to go home NOW because of safety. New staff are worried that (A) they don't have a job and (B) if they can get to their job. I could keep on doing this for another 5 paragraphs but I think everyone gets the picture.

One thing I have seen is that online learning does not work well for the early primary years and many of us are also worried about our health, our families health, our jobs and dealing with so much flux.

So to put it simply - admin are going to stuff up and some of the decisions will be major stuff ups. Will the number of people in admin get smaller? I doubt it. If anything - the amount of paperwork, training, staff pd and everything that it entails will take them even more away from doing anything specifically in relation to teaching and learning. Of course - for some schools this is a good thing.
shadowjack
Posts: 2138
Joined: Sat Oct 06, 2012 9:49 am

Re: Admin role

Post by shadowjack »

fine dude - if you are basing it solely on technical/technology ability - no, admin won't be made redundant unless enrollment is an issue. Some schools might even add admin if their tech coordinator/integrator wasn't up to the task, but I don't believe (although I could be wrong) admin will take the hit.
Heliotrope
Posts: 1167
Joined: Sun May 13, 2018 1:48 am

Re: Admin role

Post by Heliotrope »

fine dude wrote:
> Looking at how teachers have stepped up and carried along in the past 3-4
> months without much guidance from principals and assistant principals, do
> you all think some admin positions in schools will be made redundant,
> especially when they are clueless and ask for teachers help to figure out
> technicalities? Is it time to cut the bureaucratic flab in schools?


At my school not all teachers have 'stepped up', especially some of the older teachers who are sometimes less tech-savvy took a while to adjust.
And those teachers received plenty of guidance where needed from from principals and assistant principals, whom are definitely not 'clueless' and haven't asked for teachers help to 'figure out technicalities'.
There's no bureaucratic flab here, therefore there is none to cut. I'd say the organisation is about as lean as it should be. Any cuts would mean more work for both teachers and other admins.

I've been at schools with too much (middle) management, and at schools where there was not enough.
It seems you're describing your school, not all schools.
blinky
Posts: 48
Joined: Tue Mar 19, 2013 1:49 pm
Location: Germany

Re: Admin role

Post by blinky »

@Heliotrope, you really are a keyboard warrior, aren’t you.

The OP was very clear when he said SOME admin jobs in SOME schools, and yet, you have to dive right in like a hero defending your school admin team. You must be one of those teachers who curry favor to your principal like a high school hall monitor.
Heliotrope
Posts: 1167
Joined: Sun May 13, 2018 1:48 am

Re: Admin role

Post by Heliotrope »

@blinky

If he had truly said 'SOME schools' you would have been correct, but he didn't.

As I'm anonymous on this forum and I'm not sure if my admin is on this forum, I'm not trying to be a hero by praising my admin. And as far as the readership here, I don't think defending leadership will make me look like a hero, on the contrary.

But my admins are doing their best, and as a result the school is running smoothly. And there are not too many of them, and not too few.
I've been at schools where some of the admin was clueless, therefore I value the admin at my current school.
And most of the admin I've encountered over the years at different schools worked hard and were dedicated to their schools. They're not flab.

Some schools might have too many admins, while others might actually need a few more. And then there are many schools where they have about the right amount.
Illiane_Blues

Re: Admin role

Post by Illiane_Blues »

> @Heliotrope, you really are a keyboard warrior, aren’t you.

I would say the OP is the keyboard warrior in this discussion, making sweeping general statements and using sentences such as "Is it time to cut the bureaucratic flab in schools?". Those are sentences that start revolutions. Or in this case an uninteresting discussion.
Heliotrope's reply is just some well-needed nuance.
fine dude
Posts: 651
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Location: SE Asia

Re: Admin role

Post by fine dude »

No matter how much some folks deny, they are trying to impress the admin visitors to this forum and they know who they are. It's not keyboard chivalry, but based on cold facts at some schools I know of and where friends are pulling extra weight on top of teaching a full schedule. When you can't communicate well and solve problems for the job you have been hired for and apologise multiple times for your mistakes, something is not right about your competence. You can't fake it with all the people all the time (with apologies to late Abraham Lincoln).
Have a good weekend.
blinky
Posts: 48
Joined: Tue Mar 19, 2013 1:49 pm
Location: Germany

Re: Admin role

Post by blinky »

Heliotrope,

“do you all think SOME admin positions in SCHOOLS will be made redundant, especially when they are clueless and ask for teachers help to figure out technicalities?“

This is what he “truly” said before you jumped on your soapbox. He is simply asking whether some admin jobs will be restructured or downsized with increasing technology in schools. While it is obvious this question was prompted by his own experience and discussions with people he knows, I think it is a fair question and relevant for anyone in this industry.
Heliotrope
Posts: 1167
Joined: Sun May 13, 2018 1:48 am

Re: Admin role

Post by Heliotrope »

fine dude wrote:
> No matter how much some folks deny, they are trying to impress the admin
> visitors to this forum and they know who they are. It's not keyboard
> chivalry, but based on cold facts at some schools I know of and where
> friends are pulling extra weight on top of teaching a full schedule. When
> you can't communicate well and solve problems for the job you have been
> hired for and apologise multiple times for your mistakes, something is not
> right about your competence. You can't fake it with all the people all the
> time (with apologies to late Abraham Lincoln).
> Have a good weekend.


Smart, if I now deny that I'm trying to impress admin then you can you say that's a case in point.
The truth is I'm NOT trying to impress admin. What would be the point of that?
All I'm doing is say how I feel about my current admin. Are you saying there are no schools where the admin is competent and the size of admin is just about right? Well, I'm at such a school.
And through the years I've discovered admin are, surprisingly, people too. Just like teachers, very much like teachers actually. And most of them, just like most teachers, are trying to do a good job. And they're also working harder than usual nowadays. And a lot of them are competent enough, just like a lot of teachers. What's wrong with pointing that out? They're not flab.

I'm sorry to hear some of your admin is less than perfect, to put it mildly. The incompetent ones should be replaced, yes, and some positions might be redundant all together. I just know that not at every school teachers have stepped up (some have, not all), and received no or little guidance from principals and assistant principals. So I don't think it's time to cut the 'bureaucratic flab' in schools. I don't like that derogatory term by the way, but ok. In some schools they should look at the size of admin because they have either too many or too few admins, and the bad ones should be let go, but that should happen in any year. Just like with the teachers.
Heliotrope
Posts: 1167
Joined: Sun May 13, 2018 1:48 am

Re: Admin role

Post by Heliotrope »

blinky wrote:
> Heliotrope,
>
> “do you all think SOME admin positions in SCHOOLS will be made redundant,
> especially when they are clueless and ask for teachers help to figure out
> technicalities?“
>
> This is what he “truly” said before you jumped on your soapbox. He is
> simply asking whether some admin jobs will be restructured or downsized
> with increasing technology in schools. While it is obvious this question
> was prompted by his own experience and discussions with people he knows, I
> think it is a fair question and relevant for anyone in this industry.

Yes, 'some admin positions in schools'. Not 'some admin in some schools'. That makes the difference.
That there's no second 'some' is not unintentional is made clear in the last sentence: "Is it time to cut the bureaucratic flab in schools?" Again, no 'some'. I just took offense to the 'teachers good, admin bad' (teachers have stepped up, admin are clueless, and the 'bureaucratic flab'), while I've also seen plenty of teachers whose hand had to be held by admin to get them used to new realities. Both teachers and admin are sometimes flawed, but most of both groups are doing their best. I'm not trying to impress admin, I'm just trying to humanize the flab.

But let's continue the topic as though it was simply a question about whether some admin jobs will be restructured or downsized with increasing technology in schools. Because I agree that it is a fair question and relevant for anyone in this industry, and I wouldn't have reacted the way I did if it had been phrased like that, or if I got the impression that that's what the OP meant.

Btw, I think some teaching jobs might also be affected as well by technology. I already heard from a lifer at my first schools that some students just use YouTube videos because their teacher is unable to do it clearly explain certain topics. That's clearly a bad teacher though.
blinky
Posts: 48
Joined: Tue Mar 19, 2013 1:49 pm
Location: Germany

Re: Admin role

Post by blinky »

Heliotrope,

Some admin in schools implies some schools as well, unless all schools have the same organizational structure and uniform management roles, which they don’t, as you acknowledged when you said, “Some schools might have too many admins, while others might actually need a few more. And then there are many schools where they have about the right amount.“

Let’s just admit you were being unfair to the OP, and then we can move on to his important question.
Heliotrope
Posts: 1167
Joined: Sun May 13, 2018 1:48 am

Re: Admin role

Post by Heliotrope »

blinky wrote:
> Some admin in schools implies some schools as well

No it does not imply that. The sentence 'Some admin in all schools' is just as correct as 'Some admin in some schools'.


> Let’s just admit you were being unfair to the OP, and then we can move on
> to his important question.

No, I'll admit that it could be that the OP meant what you say he meant, but what he actually wrote doesn't make that clear.
Let's instead just admit we disagree, and move on.
blinky
Posts: 48
Joined: Tue Mar 19, 2013 1:49 pm
Location: Germany

Re: Admin role

Post by blinky »

Heliotrope,

You said your response was generated because the OP “offended” you. Now, you are trying to create an imaginary reality to protect your ego. Some admin positions do not exist at all schools. Some schools only have one Principal. This is one position and not position(s).

Therefore, the OP could only be referring to some admin positions in some schools. It is logically nonsensical to claim this means all admin positions in all schools. If you disagree with this, please explain your reasoning properly, instead of saying, “No it does not imply that...”

I can only agree that you owe the OP an apology.
Last edited by blinky on Fri May 15, 2020 10:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Heliotrope
Posts: 1167
Joined: Sun May 13, 2018 1:48 am

Re: Admin role

Post by Heliotrope »

Then we disagree.
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