Switzerland.

Cafare52
Posts: 29
Joined: Sat Nov 29, 2014 5:21 pm

Switzerland.

Post by Cafare52 »

Which are the best schools there when considering quality of life and savings potential?

I have been in Asia and Eastern Europe for a decade and am used to saving minimum $2K USD a month while maintaining a standard of living that involves a night or two out to dinner a week, sports, hiking, etc...

Switzerland looks like a place that is often overlooked because it's perceived as boring and expensive.

Any ideas here? I have met people who have passed through Swizz but nobody seems to stay long.

I'm a single with no dependents.
PsyGuy
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Response

Post by PsyGuy »

Switzerland isnt overlooked. The majority of top paying ISs are in Switzerland, its where an IT can get 6 figure coin that isnt desert coin.
Heliotrope
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Re: Switzerland.

Post by Heliotrope »

I've heard of ITs in Switzerland saving nothing, and I've heard of some that will save a decent amount, but yes, the cost of living is very high and that's why the salaries seem so high compared to other European countries.
Be aware that in Switzerland local teachers make more money that most ITs, so the high-looking salaries might be deceiving, although local teachers are valued more than in the US.
If you don't have any dependents, don't eat out and your travel will be outside of Switzerland, I'd say you can save a nice sum.
Teaching couples without kids would do very well financially.

For names of schools you will have to go to the paid forum.
There are also a lot of fancy boarding schools in Switzerland, if you think you can handle teaching at a boarding school.
Cafare52
Posts: 29
Joined: Sat Nov 29, 2014 5:21 pm

Re: Switzerland.

Post by Cafare52 »

Psy Guy and Helio -

I'm sure a lot of people do look, after all, people work in a lot if undesirable and low paying dumps, so naturally there will be teachers in Switzerland.

But of the two I know well who did a stint there and the few that I have met the reactions to the place have been lukewarm, at best. 'Can't save money, nothing to do if you don't ski, beautiful but cabin fever, got out in two/ three years', people are too rich for their own good, lots of right wingers/ anti-semitism,' etc...

I love the idea of Switzerland but am looking for something definitive in the other direction. Some positive affirmative statements like "I been here 8 years." "Best thing I have ever done for my career."

I'd rather live in Ukraine and save 20K a year with no prestige than go anywhere in Switzerland and save a penny less.

I will check out the payed...thank you both.
PsyGuy
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Reply

Post by PsyGuy »

@Cafare52

The cost of much of the WE and NE is high. DTs do generally earn more than IT do, until you start considering those ultra elite boarding IS, thats were the top coin is in IE.
Eating out, going to a movie, a pub and cafe time isnt horribly expensive compared to the rest of the WE/NE.

I dont know any ITs interested in the EU that would describe Switzerland as a low paying dump.
You could save more than $20K, especially if your on or close to six figure coin.

Yeah it can be boring and Switzerland can be very homogeneous in terms of ethos and beliefs and socioeconomic demographic. Its not as exciting as parts or Rome or France, I understand how some ITs can describe it as Euro life on Xanax. If your coupled up/married (or the conservative single type), no kids and a week for you is waking up early and looking at the view over a cafe, going to work, stopping for a pint or a carafe of vino after work, eating dinner at home and hitting a restaurant and a movie or the cinema on the weekend, if your not hitting the outdoors than Switzerland is fine, its not Reykjavik or Prague.
Heliotrope
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Re: Switzerland.

Post by Heliotrope »

Have a look here for an indication on cost of living in Switzerland:
https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/i ... rrency=USD

A few things aren't too expensive, but accommodation is very expensive, and lots of groceries will be more expensive than a lot of other WE countries. I think 4.06 USD for a small (0.33L) bottle of Coke or Pepsi is crazy - you can get two 1.5L bottles for 4 USD in The Netherlands or Germany.
Most groceries will be a little less than twice the price as in surrounding countries.

I know a few teachers that have been there, but they didn't save a lot (not sure about their spending habits though), but they weren't at the boarding schools, nor were they part of a teaching couple without kids. They stayed for 4 or 5 years and did lots of great hiking, did some sightseeing in Europe, but eventually moved to Asia to save money.
If you're at one of those boarding schools and accommodation is on campus and paid for as well as the meals, you might be able to save a nice sum, especially since those schools are usually nowhere near a big city so there's not much to spend your money on.

Try to get in touch with some teachers that have taught there. If you're on the paid forum, send me a PM and I can give you the contact details for one of my ex-colleagues whom I'm still in touch with.
secondplace
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Re: Switzerland.

Post by secondplace »

If you want these three things:

1. Savings
2. Nice lifestyle (very subjective, I know...)
3. Travel

then it's very likely at least one will have to go.

If you're part of a couple then with two wages coming in it will be different.

But as mentioned above, pretty much everything is expensive, or very expensive. That said, it's very safe, über organised, and small enough to easily get around and enjoy - there is so much nature to explore. Plus, lots of Europe is accessible by train (when the borders reopen) and travel is easy.
PsyGuy
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Discussion

Post by PsyGuy »

The above post of @Heliotrope is misleading. First, they refer to groceries (markets) but they cite the cost of .33L for a Coke/Pepsi in a restaurant and compare that to the Netherlands and Germany. Look at a market staple such as 1.5L of bottled water in a market in major metro cities for those regions and the prices in USD are:
Geneva: $1.10
Amsterdam: $1.04
Berlin: $.52
Geneva is the highest but double the lowest (Berlin) and only $.06 more than Amsterdam, thats not really crazy. Further @Heliotrope uses Geneva for their Switzerland example, switch to Bern and that 1.5L of bottled water is only $.50 thats the lowest of the four.
Looking at housing, yes its high looking at a 1LDK in the city center in USD:
Geneva: $2096
Amsterdam: $1731
Berlin: $933
Bern: $1195
Again, Geneva is the highest but Bern is much lower than Amsterdam (in the Netherlands) and a couple hundred more than Berlin, and even Geneva is only a coupe hundred more than Amsterdam.

I dont disagree with @secondplace, youre probably going to have to sacrifice one of the three, but thats type of prioritization is one most ITs in the WE, NE have to make.
Heliotrope
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Re: Discussion

Post by Heliotrope »

You're right, I could have made a better comparison.
I chose Geneva because I have two friends living there, and it has a well-known and popular IS.
Amsterdam is the most expensive city in The Netherlands though, so in that sense you can compare it to Geneva if that is indeed the most expensive city in Switzerland.
If you compare groceries prices between the two, the prices in Amsterdam are 48.49% lower than in Geneva, so you choosing the bottle of water is also not very representative (1KG of beef for example is $46.99 in Geneva and $15.87 in Amsterdam, but also not representative).
According to Numbeo, you would need around $5,356 in Amsterdam to maintain the same standard of life that you can have with $7,606 in Geneva (assuming you rent in both cities).

If you want to compare Bern, compare it to The Hague in The Netherlands. Then you'll see that groceries prices in Bern are 93.12% higher than in The Hague, and your 1.5L water bottle will be $0.88 in Bern, and $0.50 in The Hague.

I'm not saying you'll save more in The Netherlands btw (because you won't), but Switzerland is definitely expensive. The Netherlands are also expensive, but not as much as Switzerland, which to be fair is reflected in the salary.
For serious savings, Asia is a better option, or the ME.
Then again, clean air is free and abundantly available in Switzerland, and the same can't be said for most Asian cities.
Cafare52
Posts: 29
Joined: Sat Nov 29, 2014 5:21 pm

Re: Switzerland.

Post by Cafare52 »

I really appreciate the flood of info. The 'clean air' point can't be overstated either. My reason for leaving a good salary, quality of life combination in SEA was the pollution which after years of breathing it in, I have no desire to return to.

That's what brought me to Eastern Europe where I am grateful to be but looking ahead I long for more nature and in particular big mountains. The steppes can be rather flat and boring.

Switzerland seems like a dream location and as thrifty single with no dependents a passion for the outdoors and sporting, I could really make work for a long time. Anyhow thanks again for your feedback. I will reach out on the Private Forum.
Heliotrope
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Joined: Sun May 13, 2018 1:48 am

Re: Switzerland.

Post by Heliotrope »

If you're thrifty, have a passions for the outdoors, and you want to be around nature, big mountains and clean air, then I think Switzerland will suit you very well.

For names of the better schools (part of your original question), you'll have to post of the paid forum, as mentioning specific schools here is against the rules.
PsyGuy
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Reply

Post by PsyGuy »

@Heliotrope

Youre the one that supplied the countries.

Again, youre misrepresenting, you picked the one index with the greatest difference. Rent only has a 23% difference (Geneva still higher) and consumer goods including rent are only 42% and all consumer goods is 53%. The purchasing power differential between Geneva and Amsterdam is only 28%, sure thats higher, but its not crazy expensive higher compared to the WE, NE.

No its not, youre misrepresenting again, the 1.5L bottle of water will be $0.88 in THE HAGUE, and $0.50 in BERN.
Heliotrope
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Re: Reply

Post by Heliotrope »

And you're choosing to compare Geneva and Amsterdam for purchasing power differential, while that of Bern and The Hague is 39%.

You can always pick and choose (water vs. beef, remember?), so in an effort to be somewhat complete, I stated that according to Numbeo you would need around $5,356 in Amsterdam to maintain the same standard of life that you can have with $7,606 in Geneva (assuming you rent in both cities).
Or $6,350 in Bern to maintain the same standard of life that $4,235.52$ gets you in The Hague. That's almost exactly 50% more (42% if you're looking at Geneva and Amsterdam), but then again the higher salaries in Switzerland make up for that difference.

I'm not saying to avoid Switzerland, I'm just saying the salaries there are high for a reason. For Western Europe, the savings potential in Switzerland can be good depending on lifestyle and the number of dependents (teaching couples without kids can save excellent money), but if you want to save serious money I'd advise people to go to Asia.
Nevertheless, the OP says they're thrifty, so I'm confident they'll be able to save while enjoying the fresh air and the outdoors.
PsyGuy
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Location: Northern Europe

Reply

Post by PsyGuy »

@Heliotrope

No, @Heliotrope is the one who linked to Geneva at Numbeo. @Heliotrope is the one who cited Germany and The Netherlands. Thats YOU.

Yes, the difference between Bern and the Hague is 10% higher. Still not crazy more expensive.

You continue to misrepresent. You spend a of of time citing monetary figures of quality of life, and then you gloss over the income disparity. Yes, Bern is about 50% more costly to live in then The Hague but the salaries on average in Bern are 108% higher, thats more than (more than double) a 50% differential, that puts more coin in savings in favor of Switzerland. The same is true for Geneva and Amsterdam, its 42% more in Geneva but salaries in Geneva are 83% higher than they are in Amsterdam, almost double. Swiss salaries dont just "make up the difference", they arent breaking even, their exceeding it in real income by a factor of about 2. Switzerland is better for savings than the published comparisons you suggest.

You also mentioned Germany, looking at Berlin and Geneva, Geneva is 90% more expensive based on consumer and rent price index. Geneva though pays 115% more than Berlin thats a difference of 25%, not just ""make up the difference", but exceeding it by 25% more in savable income. Thats NOT crazy expensive more, its less.

Where in Asia @Heliotrope?
Geneva is 120% more expensive than Shanghai, but Geneva pays 308% better than Shanghai thats 188% better savings for Switzerland.
Geneva is 46% more expensive than Tokyo, but Geneva pays 89% better than Tokyo thats 47% better savings for Switzerland.
Geneva is 138% more expensive than Bangkok, but Geneva pays 701% better than Bangkok thats 563% better savings for Switzerland.
Geneva is 69% more expensive than Seoul, but Geneva pays 145% better than Seoul thats 76% better savings for Switzerland.
Geneva is 119% more expensive than Taipei, but Geneva pays 272% better than Taipei, thats 153% better savings for Switzerland.
Geneva is 20% more expensive than HK but Geneva pays 105% better than HK, thats 85% better savings for Switzerland.
Geneva is 33% more expensive than SG, but Geneva pays 71% better than SG, thats 38% better savings for Switzerland.
Geneva is 239% more expensive than KL, but Geneva pays 487% better than KL, thats 248% better savings for Switzerland.
Why do you advise ITs go to Asia compared to Switzerland? Is this based on data, or TPF?
secondplace
Posts: 191
Joined: Thu Apr 14, 2016 12:40 pm

Re: Switzerland.

Post by secondplace »

though it is disingenuous though to directly compare cost of living, as most of the Asian packages include housing, flights, insurance etc. and the Swiss ones don't.

Which means that the savings potential in Asia suddenly jumps higher.
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