International vs Bilingual school in China

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idonteven
Posts: 42
Joined: Sun Feb 12, 2017 4:37 am

International vs Bilingual school in China

Post by idonteven »

I just got an offer from a well-known chain school known for their "Quality". I think the pay is kind of low for China but it's in a a very nice/livable city. Pay is about 240k RMB/year including stuff like overseas allowance (but not including housing, flights, etc.). The position is for teaching middle-HS math.

I got an offer from them today, and they want me to decide by Friday (they're going to some fairs after that or something).

I also have an application for a bilingual school in my current city which is low-COL industrial city and pays 360k RMB/year which is surprisingly high (it's a new Huawei school and the pay is higher than what the consensus "best" international school in this city pays, I taught a demo lesson there and the facilities are fantastic). The position is for teaching upper primary math, and they said they would get back to me on Feb. 7 (but I will contact them today telling them I have another offer). The city has a meh-reputation, but IMO it's not bad (not that exciting, but quite livable).

I'm single with 1 year experience teaching math in the states, 1 year (current year) in the international department of a private boarding school in China (all Chinese national students).

My priorities: Savings potential is pretty important to me, but savings potential for the next 6-8 years. Both schools use Common Core (although the bilingual school's curriculum design seems a lot more convoluted), and with the first school I may or may not get some AP experience (they said they have 1 student who's on track for AP Calc now, with the possibility of others). Am I correct in thinking the first school will be better on my CV in the long run?
PsyGuy
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Post by PsyGuy »

Well thats quality for you, the quality of the coin isnt very quality. How comfortable are you with their mastery approach and their culty ethos? Is IS #1 offering a full OSH package, or LH?

That aside yes, IS #1 provides better potential marketability to your resume, IF you actually get SLL and AP courses and more than one student in the next couple of years or however long you stay. If the SLL amounts to all of 1 student (assuming this student stays on track) its not worth very much.
If savings though really is important to you, than Im sure you realize that IS #2 is the better option. Thats pretty good coin they are offering especially with a low COL. Are they also offering an OSH package? If they are thats really good coin given the utility of your resume and experience.
Whats the course load and preps? IS #2 will be a cushy job as far as planing and prep goes, you can coast through that for years, all the while banking some serious coin, and with coin like that you can carve out a number of years and be picky about the next IS your looking for because steel meet stone you dont need to move on too other tiers, youre kind of their. The only point to upper elite tier ISs is the coin and/or the prestige and as far as coin goes youll be banking more at higher levels on the salary scale at IS #2 than you will entering the salary scale even at cap at the highest tier ISs in the region. Its very powerful when looking at ISs and recruiting when you know and they know that you dont need them, then youre more interviewing them then they are interviewing you. If your building experience to hit cap, doing it with high coin is better than well lower coin.
If youre at IS #1 and youve got one AP prep and 2 other preps ( years 11 and 12) thats not bad, you can spin that into SLL even if its not AP (because those non AP students are still at SLL); but if your responsible for prepping years 7-12 plus AP or anything close to it (four would be be a good limit) than your just churning in an IS for 2 years at low coin just so you can get a line item on your resume (that consists of one AP student), thats fine if you have a lack of options and many ITs at your class wouldnt have those options but assuming IS #2 results in an offer you have much better options (the rule though is only offers matter).

Whos repping these ISs? Is IS #2 not repped by one of the premium agencies? Are you repped by one of the premium agencies? If theres some combination of 'no' than you can pretty comfortably accept IS #1s offer and wait until the February for IS #2, without putting any pressure on them, and if they offer decide if youd rather have that appointment or IS #1s and you can even continue recruiting and wait to dump either one of them when your comfortable with it later down the road.
eion_padraig
Posts: 408
Joined: Sat Dec 11, 2010 8:18 pm

Re: International vs Bilingual school in China

Post by eion_padraig »

Neither of these schools are long-term prospects if you're hoping to climb the ladder of in terms of pay or better schools, you probably don't want to stay more than 3 years at either of the places you describe. Once you have a couple more years under your belt, you should be able to move to a better place with IB or AP teaching options if you have a degree in math and can teach more advanced classes.

I think the trade off is less the possibility of getting to teach 1 student AP calculus, and more about the relative stability of the quality place versus a Chinese-run school. If you end up getting that salary at the bilingual that's great. I've seen and heard of things changing quickly at Chinese-run schools for little to no-reason or because enrollment isn't there. I'm wary of places that are Chinese-run as a result, though I've also had colleagues be happy for short stints at those types of places. But on the other hand recruiters are not so enamored at quality places either. I don't think it will help your CV that much.

Either can be a gateway to something better, but you're probably looking at 3 years to get to that place. What does help you bridge to other and better schools is having former colleagues vouch for you when they move onto other places. If you have a good reputation with peers who move on, they'll be important along with good experience, cover letters, and interviews. Network with people you meet at other schools in your city or those people you meet when doing training. This frustrates some people, but it's important nonetheless.

Good luck.

Eion
idonteven
Posts: 42
Joined: Sun Feb 12, 2017 4:37 am

Re: International vs Bilingual school in China

Post by idonteven »

IS #1 is offering a full OSH package.

IS/BS #2 is offering roundtrip airfare and housing, but they don't have all the extra "allowances" (overseas allowance, contract completion bonus, extra baggage allowance, etc...) included in IS #1.

Just realized I made a really dumb mistake with this. #1 is net salary, #2 is gross salary. So the net salary for #2 would, I believe, be something more like 310k RMB (I think). Thought I mentioned that in my post but now realized I didn't, whoops.

For #1 I would indeed be responsible for Gr.7-12 math.

There were no premium agencies involved in my dealings with either school.
idonteven
Posts: 42
Joined: Sun Feb 12, 2017 4:37 am

Re: International vs Bilingual school in China

Post by idonteven »

eion_padraig wrote:
> Neither of these schools are long-term prospects if you're hoping to climb
> the ladder of in terms of pay or better schools, you probably don't want to
> stay more than 3 years at either of the places you describe. Once you have
> a couple more years under your belt, you should be able to move to a better
> place with IB or AP teaching options if you have a degree in math and can
> teach more advanced classes.
>
> I think the trade off is less the possibility of getting to teach 1 student
> AP calculus, and more about the relative stability of the quality place
> versus a Chinese-run school. If you end up getting that salary at the
> bilingual that's great. I've seen and heard of things changing quickly at
> Chinese-run schools for little to no-reason or because enrollment isn't
> there. I'm wary of places that are Chinese-run as a result, though I've
> also had colleagues be happy for short stints at those types of places. But
> on the other hand recruiters are not so enamored at quality places either.
> I don't think it will help your CV that much.
>
> Either can be a gateway to something better, but you're probably looking at
> 3 years to get to that place. What does help you bridge to other and better
> schools is having former colleagues vouch for you when they move onto other
> places. If you have a good reputation with peers who move on, they'll be
> important along with good experience, cover letters, and interviews.
> Network with people you meet at other schools in your city or those people
> you meet when doing training. This frustrates some people, but it's
> important nonetheless.
>
> Good luck.
>
> Eion

I don't have a degree in math or anything relevant, I just completed the Teach Now program and took the Praxis tests for Math. I feel comfortable teaching Calc, but I'm a little worried about finding ways to prove that to recruiters/schools (the catch-22 about needing IB experience to get into IB schools, or whatever).

I have a good relationship/references with my current colleagues/boss in China, so-so with my school in the US. But appreciate your points and am making a point to network more actively now.
PsyGuy
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Joined: Wed Oct 12, 2011 9:51 am
Location: Northern Europe

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Post by PsyGuy »

@idonteven

How much are those one time allowances at IS #1 worth, somewhere between RMB¥5K-10K at most, spread out over 2 years? If so it amounts to pocket change in your monthly salary.

That does take the luster out of IS #2, but thats still USD$7.5K/yr and IS #2 sounds like it has a significant lower COL, especially for an Entry class IT, youre getting tier two coin but mainly its what you have to do for that coin. IS #2 is going to be a vastly easier job as far as tasking goes. They are all Chinese kids and this is primary maths in a corporate host nationals IS, they already are going to know everything you have to teach them (and you wont have any behavior problems since the IS is probably selective). Look at the text five minutes before going in, demo the skill, hand out a worksheet and once a week play a game (IE. math Olympia). Marking/grading can be spot checked. Lesson planing can be basic (you can make a template and all you have to change is the specifics). Youre basically teaching numeracy and the earliest pre-algebra concepts in upper primary.
Compare that to IS #1 and all of secondary with its mastery approach, with only one student thats AP ready. You know maths isnt one of there strengths, youre going to frustrate yourself coming up with a fourth way to teach a skill to a student such that you just make the assessment easy enough for them to succeed. Youre going to be grinding out two years at less coin and unless little to prove your capable and accomplished in SLL maths from an IS (both ISs actually) that dont impress the IE circuit very much. Neither one of these ISs is going to mean much when approaching IB ISs unless you can make a strong case and spin the AP experience.

You dont have to worry though you can accept IS #1s offer after negotiating a bit and then wait for IS #2 to make an offer and probably negotiate a bit. Having both offers you can figure out where to go from there, and if IS #2 doesnt make an offer or you cant reach a deal, you have the safety and security of having IS #1 in your pocket.
mysharona
Posts: 210
Joined: Thu Jan 13, 2011 1:25 am

Re: International vs Bilingual school in China

Post by mysharona »

Having worked for #1 I can attest to the frustration one can feel dealing with the issue of Mastery, however #2 could frustrate you as well as the schedule will change on a whim and holidays while seemingly generous will be offset by having to work weekends to make up the lost time. I also think your net will be less than what you think, I currently pay 30% of my salary in China in taxes. School #1 makes good on all their promises.
PsyGuy
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Location: Northern Europe

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Post by PsyGuy »

@idonteven

That could very well be true, youve had a year in chinese ISs, youre probably aware that a contract is more a starting point to negotiations than anything. Youre schedule could change at a whim, but it could also change at IS #1, and primary maths is something you can teach off the top of your head compared to seven preps of all secondary (7-12, +AP). You may have to make up holidays on the weekend, you may not, IS #2 may have a different approach or ethos. Your tax may well be closer to 30%. All of these aspects though are things you can easily verify and confirm. If the IS make an offer you can ask them if the schedule is fixed and set, and if the work week is M-F and if includes Saturdays how many? You can find out what the tax rate will be and how much it will effect your salary (the IS might qualify for some tax advantages).
IS #1 does keep its promises, you will get to the letter what is awarded to you in the contract.
National
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Joined: Sun Jan 20, 2013 3:00 am

Re: International vs Bilingual school in China

Post by National »

One consideration for #1 is that you can transfer within their system. They have schools that teach IB so you might be able to teach a year or two at the current school and then transfer into an IB math position at another one of their schools. They will put teachers with no IB experience into those positions. Then you get your IB experience, boost your resume and move on. The schools don’t do much for your resume but the IB experience does. I started my international career at one of these schools and with the IB experience was able to move to a much better school next hire. Also as other posters say you won’t have problems with pay or getting what’s in your contract. There are definitely annoyances, but it’s a means to an end...
idonteven
Posts: 42
Joined: Sun Feb 12, 2017 4:37 am

Re: International vs Bilingual school in China

Post by idonteven »

National wrote:
> One consideration for #1 is that you can transfer within their system. They
> have schools that teach IB so you might be able to teach a year or two at
> the current school and then transfer into an IB math position at another
> one of their schools. They will put teachers with no IB experience into
> those positions. Then you get your IB experience, boost your resume and
> move on. The schools don’t do much for your resume but the IB experience
> does. I started my international career at one of these schools and with
> the IB experience was able to move to a much better school next hire. Also
> as other posters say you won’t have problems with pay or getting what’s in
> your contract. There are definitely annoyances, but it’s a means to an
> end...

Regarding the transfer option, correct me if I'm wrong about this but: after two more years of teaching secondary math anywhere, wouldn't I likely be able to find someplace that would be willing to train me for IB anyway? I've talked with a school recently that had this on the table but ultimately decided to go another direction because of my lack of experience.
eion_padraig
Posts: 408
Joined: Sat Dec 11, 2010 8:18 pm

Re: International vs Bilingual school in China

Post by eion_padraig »

I do think if you have another 2 - 3 years of teaching secondary math then you can find options to get into IB.

I don't think the IB thing is as much of a Catch-22 as people make it out to be. Both my old school (Tier 2) and my current school (Tier 1) take experienced teachers and give them the option of teaching IB. Yes, once you have the experience you're more competitive, but there are places that give people the chance.
Psychometrika
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Re: International vs Bilingual school in China

Post by Psychometrika »

I currently work at a quality school as a math teacher, and while you can transfer there is no guarantee you can get what you want. I have more experience than you and have several years in the system, but was not offered a position at an IB school last year when I put in for a transfer. There are only a few schools with IB and it is a matter of luck on whether there are both openings and you are first in line to get an offer. Ultimately I decided to stay put for another year as I did not mind my current location.

Next year I am moving to a non-quality school in Shenzhen that pays substantially better. As others have mentioned quality schools do follow their contracts to the letter, but mastery learning at the secondary level can be quite taxing. Also, if you are at a small school you could be teaching multiple levels simultaneously (e.g. in one period you could be teaching Alg 1, Alg 2, and Geometry all at the same time). Granted the class sizes would be small, but that one-room schoolhouse experience is definitely not for everyone.
PsyGuy
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Joined: Wed Oct 12, 2011 9:51 am
Location: Northern Europe

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Post by PsyGuy »

@idonteven

There is a prolific trend for comfortable IB ISs to only be inserted in those with IB experience but the vast majority of IB ITs didnt have IB experience before becoming IB ITs. There is a reasonable probability that you will find some IS at some tier, somewhere that will offer to train you.

It would be more difficult to transfer into an IB IS through IS #1 than it would be to find an IB IS that would train you. IS #1 uses the small number of its popular ISs (such as Germany and Italy and its few IB ISs) through its transfer program as a benefit incentive and reward system to lure ITs into their ISs, when in reality it very difficult to get into those positions. There is always a long list of current ITs who want those positions and any particular combination of role and availability, means they dont come up often.
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