contract back out repercussions

Illiane_Blues
Posts: 201
Joined: Thu Dec 06, 2018 10:56 pm

Re: contract back out repercussions

Post by Illiane_Blues »

I'm sure h1275 understands that his advice is worthless, but he's nothing more than a troll.
Also, I think it's actually PsyGuy.

brillo
Posts: 18
Joined: Tue Jan 30, 2018 9:30 am

Re: contract back out repercussions

Post by brillo »

Hi All

Thanks for the responses, they have made for interesting reading!

Ultimately, I'm pretty happy at my current school, but of the 'interesting' positions, one really was a 'dream' job. Ended up contacting them and telling them that I would be pulling out of an existing contract to go to them. They seem fine with it so shall go ahead with the application, if my current place decide to fire me if/when they get a reference request, then so be it. HOD is aware that I've applied and thinks that backing out wouldn't be too bad as long as I go to a different country.

In this case, I'm not too worried by the 'moral' aspect of things. My school employ people who've ghosted (and I really mean ghosted as in just didn't show up after the holidays, not just backing out of a contract) their previous schools and we do have a notice period. Backing out of the contract with 7 months to go is surely preferable to using the much shorter notice period?

Anyways, I'm hoping to have my cake and eat it, but we'll see.

(Legally, I'm totally fine as the country I'm in has strong worker protections, the school is shady on this front and tells expats that said protections don't apply to us...they do. They shouldn't even ask for intent, let alone signing, this far in advance.)

Heliotrope
Posts: 686
Joined: Sun May 13, 2018 1:48 am

Re: contract back out repercussions

Post by Heliotrope »

If your current HOD is fine with it, then you can indeed have your cake and eat it too.
Good luck with the application!

brillo
Posts: 18
Joined: Tue Jan 30, 2018 9:30 am

Re: contract back out repercussions

Post by brillo »

Thanks! Though i'll be screwed if the Head somehow gets wind of it.

I guess the only thing they can do is give me a bad reference and ditch me for next year?

Heliotrope
Posts: 686
Joined: Sun May 13, 2018 1:48 am

Re: contract back out repercussions

Post by Heliotrope »

Sorry, I thought I read and wrote HOS, and not HOD (a mistake I've made before with me missing an appointment as a result).

From what I've heard, there's a reasonable chance they'll contact your HOS in the process, even if he's not your reference, but I'm not a recruiter so maybe someone else can confirm this (@Sid?).
I always have both my HOD and HOS from my most recent school as a references, along with the HODs from my other schools.

If your current Head finds out and is not amused, you could be let go on immediately (and not wait until end of year), but that depends on their personality.

brillo
Posts: 18
Joined: Tue Jan 30, 2018 9:30 am

Re: contract back out repercussions

Post by brillo »

Oh it wouldn't be that bad. Worst thing they could do is let me go at the end of the year OR pay me 3 months in lieu. There's nothing in our contract about applying for other jobs being gross misconduct/grounds for dismissal.

HOS is actually pretty chill and realistic. He knows that this isn't the type of school that people stay in forever. I just don't want to put him in an awkward position if I'm not even shortlisted. I don't think he'll be hugely surprised as I've brought the 'dream' school up in previous meetings. If he knows theres a vacancy for my subject, he may even suspect that I'm applying...so hopefully that would head off any knee jerk firings!

Fingers crossed!

PsyGuy
Posts: 9402
Joined: Wed Oct 12, 2011 9:51 am
Location: Northern Europe

Reply

Post by PsyGuy »

@Heliotrope

We have differing experiences regarding the time period for notice of intent.

No you wont have to cancel the contract. You can just take the better offer and ghost the current IS, thus leaving nothing for anyone to contact.
Your claim that the new IS will drop the IT because they are currently with another IS is untrue. There are ISs that are happy to poach the ITs of other ISs. Ther are also ISs that are happy to ignore a bad reference based solely on breaking contract. Your just conjuring this off the wind arent you? The idea that either of those behaviors is universally unacceptable isnt something you can support is it?

@h1275

I concur, the idea that a piece of paper is some how a blood bond or oath is almost unique to IE. In no professional field would someone be faulted for taking a better opportunity.

@brillo

What an HOD thinks really doesnt matter. A youve discovered the doom and gloom far mongering of breaking contract is neither absolute no universal. Many ISs want great teachers and just as great guys are often taken (in another relationship) they may not be proud of poaching someone elses they arent going to fret about it if it betters their position.

As long as your not breaking the law, all that matter is you have options and as soon as you have options than hat a previous or current IS/leadership thinks doesnt matter.

I agree with @Heliotrope that if an IS is going to contact someone at your current IS they are going to contact the HOS even if not one of your designated references. At that point is depends hat the HOS says. If they say you were a strong practitioner but obviously a poor employ on the basis of braking contract than youre fine if thats fine with the new IS. It wouldnt be uncommon though for an HOS to trash you completely on any and all aspects based on you braking contract, thats where other references come in.

Contracts even in those regions with strong labor protections arent guarantees. If an IS wants too they can make it look like gross misconduct or any number of rationals for immediate dismissal. Your HOS could dismiss you immediately and then make you fight for the three months and how is that going to effect the new position that your going to have to leave for and if it doesnt, how long can you stay in country and fight over that three months, which could take a lot longer than three months.

Heliotrope
Posts: 686
Joined: Sun May 13, 2018 1:48 am

Re: Reply

Post by Heliotrope »

PsyGuy wrote:
> We have differing experiences regarding the time period for notice of
> intent.

Clearly.


> No you wont have to cancel the contract. You can just take the better offer
> and ghost the current IS, thus leaving nothing for anyone to contact.

And lose two years of experience, and make it harder to get employed.
Also, your reference from the ghost prior to the current will know which school you went to (the current) and might bring it up, thus making the truth come out.


> Your claim that the new IS will drop the IT because they are currently with
> another IS is untrue. There are ISs that are happy to poach the ITs of
> other ISs.

Yes, it could go either way. Most schools I know would be less than fine employing someone who will break contract, but those are all tier 2 and 1.
Seems the OP is fortunate that his potential new school doesn't mind that we would be breaking contract.


> Ther are also ISs that are happy to ignore a bad reference based
> solely on breaking contract. Your just conjuring this off the wind arent
> you? The idea that either of those behaviors is universally unacceptable
> isnt something you can support is it?

If a HOS whose contract you broke and is pissed because of it will be called for a reference, chances are they will speak badly of you in general, and maybe not just about the breaking contract part. They might be professional and give you an honest reference. It could go either way. But if they're genuinely pissed I think they will do anything to prevent you from getting hired. And your other (older) references can only undo so much damage done by your most recent reference.


> @h1275
>
> I concur, the idea that a piece of paper is some how a blood bond or oath
> is almost unique to IE. In no professional field would someone be faulted
> for taking a better opportunity.

In plenty of fields they will hold you to a signed contract.

brillo
Posts: 18
Joined: Tue Jan 30, 2018 9:30 am

Re: contract back out repercussions

Post by brillo »

So, they contacted my HOS - and it turns out that I've never given him enough credit.

He first gave me the benefit of the doubt and assumed it was an application submitted from before I signed my contract. When I said that it wasn't, he called me in for a meeting and I assumed that he was confirming that I wouldn't be coming back at the end of the year (I was 100% sure that he wouldn't fire me, I knew he was too decent to do that).

Instead he said I could go forward with the interview and they'd hold my place at the school, but made it clear that I wouldn't be allowed to do this again. He even gave me advice as he's familiar with the school I'm interviewing at.

So I guess I do get to have my cake and eat it?

I better go and write up a nice review for him!

Thank you guys for all of your advice throughout this.

Heliotrope
Posts: 686
Joined: Sun May 13, 2018 1:48 am

Re: contract back out repercussions

Post by Heliotrope »

Nice, enjoy your cake!
Your HOS sounds like a very relaxed person, and way more reasonable than he has to be. Be sure to give him a nice bottle of whisky if you land the job.

brillo
Posts: 18
Joined: Tue Jan 30, 2018 9:30 am

Re: contract back out repercussions

Post by brillo »

Thanks! It's honestly such a nice position to be in, will be good to interview without the spectre of unemployment looming above me. Means I can genuinely assess whether or not the school will be a good fit. It sounds brilliant but I also love my current school so wouldn't mind staying another year (sadly the city isn't one that my partner and I can tolerate for more than that).

Yes, he is being very kind. I was pleasantly surprised. People say some relatively unkind things about him, but I've never seen him be unreasonable. Went to write a review for him here, and the existing ones are terrible! Feel bad for him if I'm honest. Maybe he's turned over a new leaf for 2020? Shall be getting him something either way!

PsyGuy
Posts: 9402
Joined: Wed Oct 12, 2011 9:51 am
Location: Northern Europe

Reply

Post by PsyGuy »

@Heliotrope

It may only be trivially harder to get employed or may not be hard at all. You can do anything for a year and not effect your marketability an extra year isnt that much more of a problem.

How would they know what IS they went too? All they know is one IS contacted them for a reference, it doesnt mean the IT was offered an appointment or the IT accepted. Leaders dont really keep track of this information and how would thy bring it up too the next IS. What do they say "Hey X IS contacted me to years ago for a reference". X could have been several or many ISs.

I agree, they could trash an IT entirely based on breaking contract, they also could honestly identify the bad reference based solely on breaking contract. Its a coin flip.

Hold you to a signed contract how? Hold against you in a hallway and not let you leave by force? What you burned a bridge with us and you can never come back to this organization/company? Besides that not being true, companies and executives and manager change, what else are they going to do say mean things behind your back.

@brillo

So he said you cant do it again. Hos that decent, can you recruit with a safety spot or not? (Sounds like you cant except for this one position). It sounds contrived, hes already talked to the other principal and they have already made some kind of deal or reached some kind of understanding.

wander
Posts: 14
Joined: Mon Mar 11, 2019 12:05 pm

Re: contract back out repercussions

Post by wander »

Maybe talk with your supervisor and be up front about it? I did this during my last search. I told him that I wanted to explore a few possibilities and he agreed to try and fill my job last. That bought me a couple of extra months to look around before I gave a firm yes or no to returning.

I ended up staying with the school until for a couple of extra years before finally landing my dream job this recruiting cycle.

Heliotrope
Posts: 686
Joined: Sun May 13, 2018 1:48 am

Re: Reply

Post by Heliotrope »

PsyGuy wrote:
> @Heliotrope
>
> It may only be trivially harder to get employed or may not be hard at all.
> You can do anything for a year and not effect your marketability an extra
> year isnt that much more of a problem.

*affect
More years of teaching experience equals better chances, all other things being the same.
Of course, there's a limit - having either 16 or 17 years of experience doesn't make a whole lot of difference.


> How would they know what IS they went too? All they know is one IS
> contacted them for a reference, it doesnt mean the IT was offered an
> appointment or the IT accepted. Leaders dont really keep track of this
> information and how would thy bring it up too the next IS. What do they say
> "Hey X IS contacted me to years ago for a reference". X could
> have been several or many ISs.

I'm quite sure my last two Heads know where I went after I left their school, and my former HODs definitely know where I went. This isn't true for all or even most Heads, but there's a chance they will know. It also depends on the size of the school and how involved the Head is. HODs will know more, and are also likely to be contacted.
Also, during one interview it became clear the recruiter had Googled me, because he referenced an activity I had organized that was mentioned in an online Newsletter of a former school. It's becoming harder to hide things. Not everyone may search, but when they do there will be more and more to find with a simple Google search.

> I agree, they could trash an IT entirely based on breaking contract, they
> also could honestly identify the bad reference based solely on breaking
> contract. Its a coin flip.

Yep, as I said it could go either way.


> Hold you to a signed contract how? Hold against you in a hallway and not
> let you leave by force? What you burned a bridge with us and you can never
> come back to this organization/company? Besides that not being true,
> companies and executives and manager change, what else are they going to do
> say mean things behind your back.

I responded to the statement that 'in no professional field would someone be faulted for taking a better opportunity.'
But in reality, in plenty of fields they will if you signed a contract. Also, look up 'contract law'.

PsyGuy
Posts: 9402
Joined: Wed Oct 12, 2011 9:51 am
Location: Northern Europe

Reply

Post by PsyGuy »

@Heliotrope

*effect.

More years of experience increases the marketability of an IT, that doesnt make it harder. An IT with four years experience is just as marketable to a third tier floater IS as an IT with six years experience. Marketability doesnt equal difficulty.
All other factors rarely exists.
Having two years vs. four years doesnt make a whole lot of difference either. Your error is thinking this is an ordinal scale when its an interval scale, the differences at points between units of measure is the same, neither the tails, nor the center of the scale are amplified compared to some other area or point along the scale.

Are you sure or are you guessing again? HODs dont matter, but if they do know thats only because you told them or informed them in some other way, thats your decision not an unavoidable outcome.
So stay out of the news. Lesson learned.

Yes, Im agreeing with you, but if youd like one superfluous point youre welcome to it and such point is hereby bestowed.

Already know contract law and dont need to look it up, oh wait which one of the many, many, many, countries and legal jurisdictions that ITs and ANYONE can move in and through should I have looked up. Not that there is anything to look up. This has been discussed before theres very little a contract from any field can really do.

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