Saying No Politely

Heliotrope
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Joined: Sun May 13, 2018 1:48 am

Re: Saying No Politely

Post by Heliotrope »

Also you won't be able to use the the agency organising the fair anymore in the future.
And furthermore I think it's just plain wrong, morally speaking.

Nexttrip
Posts: 15
Joined: Fri Feb 08, 2008 4:29 pm

Re: Saying No Politely

Post by Nexttrip »

Doctor wrote:
> Since you are new to international school teaching let me tell you: accept
> all interviews and sign all contracts. Its the ABCs of international school
> teaching: Always Be signing Contracts.

This is laughable advice and will quickly end your chance to work at any school above a Tier 3. Schools and administrators talk all the time and the international school world is very small. If you are signing multiple contracts at quality schools and then reneging on some or even one, you are taking a major risk if your long-term goals includes a career in international education at the better schools.

I had a situation at a fair where I was offered a job by two Tier 1 schools on the same day, but one had catch. The school I slightly preferred said I had the job if the current person in the position (the job was still listed as tentative) decided to leave (this person had until that night to decide and the school would let me know after "leaning" on the guy for a final decision). The other school, another fantastic school, but in a region I slightly less preferred was waiting 48 hours for my decision. In the end, at my preferred school, the guy ended up staying, so I took the other one. It was still a great school in an interesting country so I am very satisfied with it.

However, 3 weeks later, at my preferred school (the one where the guy ended up staying), another position in my area at a different level suddenly and unexpectedly appeared. I know they really liked me and even though I was very satisfied with the job I committed to, it did cross my mind to perhaps reach out to this school about the new opening. I have no doubt that there are people like Psyguy and Doctor who would have made the short-sighted decision to approach the preferred school again to see if they would be willing to consider them for the position, even though they had committed to another school. Crap, mostly for-profit schools might actually not mind but the better schools will. A lot. One post on Headnet or otherwise, could really tarnish your name and reputation.

Alos, schools that your renege on could also potentially call up your references to let them know that you reneged (especially if there was a prior connection there). So there are definitely some consequences for trying to play the game this way.

PsyGuy
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Location: Northern Europe

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Post by PsyGuy »

@twofromusa

Strongly disagree with @Nexttrip.
First the vast majority of ISs are third tier ISs and the world of IE isnt defined by the first/elite tier ISs.
Second, ISs and leaders dont talk all the time, its not even very often and the subject of who is working for who doesnt come up often, and even when it does there is no clearing house of IT appointments.
Third, the IE world isnt small even if you use the ISC data its over 10K ISs.
Fourth, there just isnt a lot of risk if done right. There is a major gap in results between telling an IS to take a flying leap your going to your dream ISs thats also repped by the same premium agency and feigning a family tragedy or playing some other angle to get out of a contract and going to another ISs thats not repped by the same agency.
Fifth, theres nothing short sighted, just fear mongering by leaders. Smart people are open to changing their minds when given new data. The "your word is your bond" mantra isnt a suicide pact.
Sixth, neither Headnet nor AISH are that big and there is no black list.

Always be signing contracts mans that 1) No one is going to look after or protect your interests more than you, and most everyone in IE leadership would leave you twisting in the wind if it served their interests. An IS that appoints you in January and then has the IT whose position your assuming decides to stay and there isnt anything the IS can do about it, they are just going to send you an email withdrawing the offer and wishing you good luck. They arent going to give you anything, even if they have to they are likely going to bet you dont know that and wont be able to enforce them complying with whatever regulation would require them to give you compensation.

I wouldnt recommend signing multiple contracts at a fair, especially a premium agencies fair. Its a lot easier for the agency and ISs to monitor and thus police that kind of activity. Its much, much easier if its outside of the fair or more specifically if the ISs arent repped by the same agencies. It depends on the fair as well, GRC for example doesnt monitor multiple appointments and members arent barred from doing so. There isnt a global clearing house of IT appointments.

Usually when this scenario come up its one of two situations. The IT signed with an IS but something closer to or their dream offer/IS becomes available or the IT wants a safety net to fall back on in case the appointment falls though. The only real issue of the two is having a plan in case the first scenario happens and deciding if you want to have a backup and safety IS in case the primary IS dissolves the contract and your left without a job. Either one is manageable.
What you want to start with is your exit story some family tragedy (goldfish died) or abrupt development (hey we just found out were pregnant with twins so Ill be bringing a trailing spouse and two new young infants), apologize a lot and the appointment goes away. In the second you just want to pursue a backup IS or use your current IS as a backup while you continue to search for a better opportunity this can mean having to do so essentially without the use of a premium agency, but without that barrier there isnt a lot of risk if any.

twofromusa
Posts: 13
Joined: Mon Jul 22, 2019 10:42 am

Re: Saying No Politely

Post by twofromusa »

Good point. I was wondering what happens (not sure how frequently it happens) if a school notifies you that the job for which you signed a contract is no longer available for whatever reason.
I have known of programmers in high-end jobs (at Google, Amazon, Facebook, e.t.c.) jump places within a month of signing contracts at other places and behaving as if it were normal. Of course, programmers don't have kids sitting in a classroom waiting for good instruction. Wondering if there is more guilt involved in jumping jobs in IE world.

Heliotrope
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Joined: Sun May 13, 2018 1:48 am

Re: Saying No Politely

Post by Heliotrope »

Yes, I have heard amongst the tier 1 and upper tier 2 schools, some names float around of teachers that have broken contract without a proper reason, or have done something else that would be a reason not to hire them. Not so much an actual blacklist, but recruiters talk amongst each other, and what's more juicy than a good story about how this weird teacher broke contract for this bizarre or stupid reason? (well, some things are juicier, but almost everybody likes to gossip). I'm sure they have their own forum to discuss things, just like we have.

But for me, getting a bad reputation isn't the reason I wouldn't sign multiple contracts. My reason is simple: I wouldn't want schools to sign multiple candidates for the same job I signed a contract for, so I'm not going to do something similar.
I know there have been some schools (but a minority) that have done just that, but that doesn't mean I have to be an *sshole as well.
That doesn't make me a boy scout, it just makes me what I hope is still a normal somewhat decent human being.

twofromusa
Posts: 13
Joined: Mon Jul 22, 2019 10:42 am

Re: Saying No Politely

Post by twofromusa »

I’m sure there’s a variety of circumstances why people break contacts. Maybe it doesn’t make much sense when going from one low ranked school to another or from one high ranked school to another. What if after signing a contract (say at a fair), a week or a month later you were offered a significantly better one at a higher ranked school, better location and more money?

Heliotrope
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Re: Saying No Politely

Post by Heliotrope »

In my opinion, if you wanted a higher ranked, better paying school, then you shouldn't have signed the contract.
Some teachers take a risk by not signing a contract offered to them because they think they can still get into a better school, other sign early for peace of mind knowing they will be employed the next year.
If you sign at that better school and that school comes across a better candidate a week or month later and cancels on you, you would think they're screwing you over, right? I would. So I'm also not going to screw over a school after I signed the contract.

There are some schools that do cancel contracts, and there are some teacher that do the same. But those are *sshole schools and *sshole teachers, and they shouldn't turn you into one as well, and in the process ruin the process for the rest of us, as the more teachers go back on the word/contract, the more schools will do it as well (and vice versa).

Yes, you should be looking out for your own interest, but please have some dignity as well and stand by your word, just like you expect the schools to do. Don't sign contracts you don't plan to honor.

sid
Posts: 1117
Joined: Sat Dec 02, 2006 11:44 am

Re: Saying No Politely

Post by sid »

Yes. Thank you.

This repeating argument does get tiresome. Every few months, here we go again. My mind hasn't changed, and I don't think it will just because some new person pops up and uses slightly different words to say "You have to look out for yourself. Screw them before they screw you." I doubt very many people have had their minds changed. It's a personality and deep personal belief sort of thing.

It's slightly more interesting to ponder the type of personalities and belief systems that trend to the different viewpoints. But only slightly.

twofromusa
Posts: 13
Joined: Mon Jul 22, 2019 10:42 am

Re: Saying No Politely

Post by twofromusa »

Seems like there has been a lot more anger and increase in "Screw them before they screw you" mentality since the 2007-2008 financial ordeal (at least in the States) in many industries. Just wanted to hear what people have to say here.

reisgio
Posts: 203
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Re: Saying No Politely

Post by reisgio »

Don't put the cart before the horse...

PsyGuy
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Post by PsyGuy »

@twofromusa

Its not common but its not uncommon. What happens is you go back too job hunting and asking very nicely if SA will reactivate your job profile and give you access again, but SA has made ITs pay the registration fee again. Otherwise its entirely on the IT to make things work and recover its rare for an IS to offer anything in terms of compensation regardless of reason and based on the recruiting cycle ITs literally have nothing to go back too having given notice for their current job they can easily be left with nothing.

Well it is normal, thats how business works. Edu tends to heap a lot of guilt with words like accountability on DTs/ITs but thats just emotional manipulation, you can choose how much guilt to feel or whether to feel guilty at all. Guilt is different from empathy you can have empathy for the students and you can truly ant the best for them without having to fall on your sword and sacrifice yourself. Its the difference between a calling and a crusade, they arent the same thing.

Its rarely a scenario where an IT is going from a same tier IS within the region to another IS of equal tier in the same region. Its as described above to scenarios 1) the IT gets a dream offer or they get a substantially better IS or more desirable region.
In your scenario, smart people change their mind when confronted with new data and a contract isnt a suicide pact. You owe an IS nothing, if they ant to claim damages from breach thats their remedy to pursue.

The UK (England) isnt any different salaries are abysmal on the MPS and even the UPS and pensions will barely pay your basic costs if you retire out as a DT. One of the only agencies in England, the Dfe will be ecstatic if there is a hard (no deal) Brexit.

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