Question about license options in US - have PGCE, failed QTS

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r135
Posts: 3
Joined: Tue Jul 02, 2019 7:57 am

Question about license options in US - have PGCE, failed QTS

Post by r135 »

Might be a sensitive subject, but anyway...

I took a UK based PGCE five years ago. The qualification was setup so that if you passed the academic exams you were awarded a PGCE, and if you passed the school based placements you were awarded QTS. It was possible to obtain one without the other. I passed the academic exams, but failed the school placements. What can I say, UK kids are horrible and the staff at these state schools are even worse.

I was duly awarded a PGCE. On the transcript, there's no indication that I'd failed to get QTS - it just lists the academic modules I passed, and says Postgraduate Certificate in Education on the front. Of course, I don't have my teacher number from the DoE, or a QTS certificate.

I was able to use that certificate to get employment at a fairly well paying school. Not saying exactly where for obvious reasons. They never asked directly about QTS status, but as part of the interview they did ask about my experiences of student teaching, and I drew upon those experiences to answer their questions. I've no doubt whatsoever that the school I'm currently employed at believes I have QTS. All the other teachers do, when I was hired the Head of Department actually made a comment that they get lots of people applying with PGCEi's that the school won't accept as they're not really qualified etc. Clearly I slipped through the net and the school never actually dug that deep to find out if my PGCE can with QTS, but I know they assumed it did.

I'm saying this just so it's clear I cannot do an assessment only route to get qualified. I've worked here for four years with no problems and no complaints, but I can't have an assessor come in and observe my classes to get QTS because the school already thinks I have it. That's if I'd even pass it this time around which is no guarantee.

Ideally I'd like to move somewhere else next year, since I'd like to see new places and new things, and four years here seems like long enough. That means the license issue might raise its head again...I might not get as lucky 2nd time around when recruiting.

What options are there for me to get a teaching licence under these conditions? I've heard on here that some people have been able to use PGCEi's to get a license in the US, which is essentially what I have right now - a piece of paper that says PGCE on it along with a transcript which lists my academic passes.

Anyone about to come in here and say I should tell my current school and face the consequences because honestly is the best policy etc - save your text, because it's not going to happen. You have to look out for yourself, no one else will in this world.
PsyGuy
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Joined: Wed Oct 12, 2011 9:51 am
Location: Northern Europe

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Post by PsyGuy »

What does the TCL/TRA have on record of your dossier?

There has to be something, you did field work, you worked in a KS/K12 environment. Even if you dont know your DOE number theres got to be something on file for you, though there is a very narrow chance there isnt.

What you have is an academic PGCE, a relatively new program scheme that is the academic portion of a PGCE. Its why very few leadership at BSs dont know about it.

I dont know hat your dossier with the TCL/TRA says. It might say youre barred (I assume your IS did a DBS CRB, but that it came back clean) which would indicate you havent been barred. But just as induction is a non-recoverable failure preventing you from getting QTS, your field experience would be the same, if thats what the dossier states. If it does, than nothing is going to help you get QTS. You cant do AO, you cant do OTT, because as soon as you apply your dossier is going to come up and their going to see you were unsuccessful in field experience and your application will be denied. Now there are other identifiers in your TCL/TRA dossier that wouldnt keep you from getting QTS.

You could use the US to get a US credential, but again depending whats in the TCL/TRA dossier it may not help you eventually get QTS out of it, and to warn you in advance an English IT with a PGCE (not a PGCEi) who presents a US credential and not a QTS certificate at a BS is going to be a red flag. The deciding factor is going to be hat the NACES evaluation states, its possible they might make the same mistake and conclude that your PGCE includes QTS, absent a QTS certificate, which would change the scenario:
You basically have four options:
1) You can apply for a MA (Massachusetts) provisional (entry grade) credential, you take some exams for most subjects and you get an effective lifetime credential out of it.
2) You could use your PGCE and apply for a CT (Connecticut) credential, which may get you their provisional (professional grade) credential or their initial (entry grad credential). The provisional credential is valid for 8 years and non-renewable, but youd be able to use it to get HI standard (professional grade) credential which is renewable. The initial credential is renewable every 3 years for a total of 18 years.
3) You could do another EPP/ITT program through Teach Now which would get you a DC standard (professional grade) credential, its valid for 4 years and is renewable with PD.
4) If the NACES evaluation comes back that your PGCE is a professional edu credential, than you could apply straight away for the HI (Hawaii) standard (professional grade) credential, its renewable every 5 years. Once you have this you can take the ESOL and academic core PRAXIS and apply for the CA CLEAR credential. Its a 5 year credential thats renewable but unlike the HI credential it requires no PD to renew.
This is eventually the route you want to take combined with one of the previous routes. After you get those credentials you teach three years on them and then can apply for the HI standard credential, which you can then use to obtain the CA CLEAR credential.

Once you have the HI standard credential you can apply for QTS, assuming there isnt a pediment in the TCL/TRA database. You used to until very recently be able to do this with Teach Now and DC, but not anymore, unless you obfuscate how you got the DC credential by selecting another EPP/ITT provider other than Teach Now.

You could also consider again depending on what your TCL/TRA dossier states possibly find a short term IS for a 1-2 year contract and do AO, which is the more marketable option. Youre most marketable to BSs and an IT with a PGCE thats not a PGCEi with a US credential and not QTS is going to be a glaring red flag.
r135
Posts: 3
Joined: Tue Jul 02, 2019 7:57 am

Re: Question about license options in US - have PGCE, failed

Post by r135 »

Thanks for the help,

The last time I checked, the DfE had on record that I was a 'student teacher' - with pretty much no other information. It certainly didn't list that I'd failed to get QTS, and definitely nothing about being 'barred'. I think you only get officially barred if you fail induction or if you fail for a reason that suggested you would be a danger around the kids - I failed for classroom management reasons so just 'being a bad teacher' I guess (UK kids in state schools, like I say are awful. Thankfully nothing like this in the school I'm at now). I do have a Department for Education number actually (got that wrong in my first post, we were issued them shortly before we started our student placements), but of course, no QTS certificate.

Yes I needed to do a DBS CRB for my current school which came back clean - I didn't fail for any 'criminal' reasons, they just basically said I sucked at the job. My school currently is a British School, not an American one - would that impact my chances of getting any of the US credentials you listed?

Looking at my transcript itself, it would be very difficult for anyone to know that I failed anything unless they were an alumni of the same university or specifically inquired about the QTS certificate. The transcript has on it the academic modules I took exams in (and passed). It also has on it a number of other modules which were required to complete the course but not assessed by exam - my school placements fall into this section, with no indication that I failed them (only the actual assessed coursework has a grade mark next to it, all the other modules and the placements are just listed under a separate heading indicating they were attended and 'completed').

Under such circumstances, it would seem like it would be best to do a NACES evaluation to see if they would also be fooled that it was a 'true' PGCE with QTS. What actually happens in these NACES evaulations? Do they just look at the transcript (in which case I'd be very confident they'd conclude it was a 'legit' PGCE) or do they actually phone your university to ask them about your track record?

So basically, if I have this right - NACES evaulation, if it comes back positive, get the HI Standard Credential, then use that to apply for QTS right away?
PsyGuy
Posts: 10789
Joined: Wed Oct 12, 2011 9:51 am
Location: Northern Europe

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Post by PsyGuy »

@r135

When was the last time you checked? Its very difficult to imagine a dossier that has identifying information, an issuance date of a Dfe number and a date of student teaching and then nothing else. Its possible, this is British bureaucracy were talking about. Four years its possible it escaped audit, its possible the dossier was not completed, its just really hard to envision that.

No being a BS wont matter, as long as the IS is accredited by a western accreditation agency, has your current IS been inspected by Ofsted or one of its associate agencies as a BSO? Even if its accredited by the local MOE its probably okay. What the regulating authorities are weary of is ESs that have a business license and other types of ESs like kindergartens, etc.

Well they could always just verify with the University as well though your university is likely just to say that you were conferred a PGCE, the TCL/TRA will quickly and easily verify you dont have QTS. Once the TCL.TRA implements their public database lookup, it wont even require contacting the TCL/TRA.

The NACES process is pretty straightforward. You register an account with them online, and initiate an evaluation. You then either have your Uni transfer electronically your transcript or arrange for the transcript to be sent to them. Normally you would send a copy of your QTS certificate which they would then verify. The evaluator will take the transcript and then consulting their tables make determinations about what your degree equates too both in terms of length, type and honors. They then can do a course by course evaluation about your courses and what they would be equivalent to in terms of subject, level, and unit equivalencies. They usually dont contact the Uni unless theres a problem or issue, which they might do. The NACES service agencies generally have accounts or access to accounts with the TCL/TRA to check QTS, but an evaluator may simply make the assumption that you have a true PGCE and thus must have QTS.

Yes, thats essentially the pathway, you get the results of the NACES and assuming they indicate a professional edu credential, submit an application and documents to the HI DOE and they issue you either the initial (entry grade) credential or the standard (professional grade) credential depending if they accept your experience or not.

Unfortunately I doubt you will be able to use it to get QTS, your going to run up against the kiwi stone. Several years ago, a DT from England failed induction after a personality conflict with their head teacher, it was kind of scandalous. So the DT gets this idea to use mutual recognition to get QTS. She goes to NZ and after a couple years gets registration, and then applies for QTS, what she doesnt realize is she has QTS, shes just barred, and another form of QTS isnt going to absolve the barring. The outcome of that however was that a "teacher once established" can not use mutual recognition or some other system process to avert an "unsuccessful outcome" of "teacher regulation". The three parts to that in quotes mean that: First, its well established that a student teacher is a teacher, its also evident that you, yourself established yourself by entering the teaching profession. Second, along the same lines its evident that this is an issue of teacher regulation. Third, whats going to be at the primary issue is whether this is an unsuccessful outcome of teacher regulation or is this just failing at an academic module. Usually the standard is an issue of finality. If you could repeat the field work through your previous Uni or another Uni, or though some other scheme than its not final and this is just a matter of academic perseverance. If however your Uni prohibited you from trying again, and other similar programs would prohibit you as well, than this would have finality and more likely to be an unrecoverable unsuccessful outcome.
Regardless, this is going to happen, you already have a dossier and short of a fake identity, when this comes up, and it will, theres going to be questions that will need to be answered. They might email HI or you and ask about details of your preparation/training and HI is very likely to say we issued the credential based on the applicant having your credential. They might contact your Uni and find out what happened, because well they have to, they have to make sure your student teaching didnt end in something 'torrid', and it didnt, but they are likely to determine that you arent eligible for mutual recognition because you werent trained/prepared OS.
Of course it could be your the last file on the last day before a holiday and the evaluator just issues the QTS certificate.
r135
Posts: 3
Joined: Tue Jul 02, 2019 7:57 am

Re: Question about license options in US - have PGCE, failed

Post by r135 »

OK, I managed to check with the TRA again (had forgotten my teacher reference number, but they just sent it to me now so I've been able to check).

A couple of years ago it seems my fail was updated to show a record of 'fail' next to the 'initial teacher training' section on 'course outcome'. It doesn't outright say I'm barred, but yeah, might be a bit of an issue getting QTS even if I did get a license in the US.

Alright so next question...how common is it for an IS to actually check on QTS status when making new hires, providing the PGCE certificate looks totally legit? My current school never checked - is this more the exception or the norm?

Basically, would I be better off just counting my blessings that I do actually have a decent job, and dig in here for the long haul? Or is it more likely that a new school, four years post-PGCE, is probably only going to ask my HoD and Headteacher for a reference, and assume that I have QTS as I'm already employed in an IS?
PsyGuy
Posts: 10789
Joined: Wed Oct 12, 2011 9:51 am
Location: Northern Europe

Reply

Post by PsyGuy »

@r135

Thats going to be a problem, you cant use mutual recognition to circumvent the outcome of your ITT program (there is no way they are going to waive induction, which mutual recognition does for a ITT fail). You cant even use AO, and very, very likely cant use one of the SCD options (salaried, nonsalaried, school centered, etc.). Your best option is finding a Uni with a top up program that would take your essentially academic PGCE and let you complete ITT to obtain QTS as an NQT. Doing that is going to involve a frank and in depth conversation of why you failed, and how you intend to overcome the kids in English DSs are $hite, mainly ho your recent experience as an IT has deepened or hardened you to such behavior.

As for getting a US credential either you ghost it and complete a US EPP/ITT program, or you try for US mutual recognition and hope the NACES evaluation provides you the equivalent of QTS, because they overlook/assume you have it based on the PGCE qualification and absent the QTS certificate.

Its more the exception rather than the norm, but this varies based on tier of IS, there are certainly ISs in the lower tier that dont care if you have a QTS credential, they would hire you even if you didnt have one, that becomes less and less likely quickly as you move up in tiers.
Its not an easy process checking QTS, some ISs just dont do it, they put the paired PGCE, QTS and CRB/DBS certificates in the personnel folder of the IT and move in. The process of checking since the TCL/TRA doesnt have a public portal involves writing an email to the TCL/TRA with the names and Dfe numbers and waiting a week for a reply email that they match the record and thus are valid or dont, and are invalid. Better ISs Usually do that, some, typically lower tier ISs dont.

You mostly slipped through a crack, that could continue for the length or your career, its likely a better tier will check, its also possible theres a change in leadership or a change in your current IS of some kind and someone does an audit at your current IS and finds out you dont have QTS. Its possible, but low on the likelihood scale that you continue to benefit from oversight and obscurity.

Hope really isnt a plan, strongly consider getting some kind of credential, even a US credential, so that if your lack of QTS is discovered your not looking at immediate dismissal, such as the MA provisional credential, which would require the least amount of resources and not require field experience from your current IS, and thus not involve that ISs leadership. The next more involved step but still risk less in terms of your current IS is to get the NACES evaluation done and see what it says. If actual QTS is your goal, you really only have one pathway available to you, and its going to require going back to England, and a Uni and doing a top up program which if your going to do, you may as well go to Ireland or Scotland and do a EPP/ITT program there from the beginning and getting a PGDE to get registration/credentialing. You still wont be able to use that to get QTS in England, but registration is the credential, and you dont seem like you ever ant to actually go back to England and teach in DE there anyway.
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