PGCE vs Teach Now

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Will402
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Joined: Tue Jun 18, 2019 8:57 am

PGCE vs Teach Now

Post by Will402 »

Good evening/morning

I guess I’m looking for advice.

I’ve got a place booked on a PGCE course in September, which will mean I have to go home for a year and not earn.

Alternatively I’ve just discovered the teach now program as a possible alternative.

My question is, would a teach now graduate be less valuable than a PGCE graduate and by how much?

From what I understand teach now - Columbia District certification- QTS is an easy route. So is there any point to doing the PGCE?

I want to get into IB schools (PYP) eventually and stay in that curriculum. Would a teach now pathway block and chance of a tier one IS?

Appreciate any info I can get

Merci, Will
PsyGuy
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Post by PsyGuy »

Not any more, until very recently you could do Teach Now at an IS anywhere in the world, get the DC standard (professional grade) credential and then turn around and get QTS by completing an application and waiting about 2 weeks. Thats not true anymore, too many British ITs were using it to circumvent the QTS pathway. As a result the TCL/TRA made an interpretation that to qualify for QTS as an OTT the IT needs to do their actual training meaning field experience in the US, not just be prepared by a US provider. What will happen when your completing your OTT application for QTS is if you select DC as your credential issuer, and then write Teach Now you ill get a letter requiring you to verify the field experience as done in the US. If you dont they will deny your QTS. Its still possible to do Teach Now and get QTS but you have a couple choices to make.

The Short: If your willing to engage in some subterfuge and deception, its a very specific pattern that the TCL/TRA is looking for. You can do Teach Now, and then either once getting your credential and completing your application for QTS you can list a different provider than Teach Now, one of the DC Unis for example or you can just make up some letterhead with a US address and an email address that you did your field work in the US.

The Long: You can still get QTS without any type of subterfuge or deception but the process takes a much longer time and requires some additional resources. What you will be doing is getting the DC credential, and then you will have to teach for 3 years in IE on the DC credential and then you will apply for the Hawaii (HI) Standard (professional grade) credential. Once you have that you can then apply for an receive QTS as an OTT.

If you absolutely have to have QTS now/ASAP, than the PGCE is going to get you there faster than going Teach Now->HI. Both programs take a year but youll have to wait an additional 3 years teaching with the DC credential before you can get the HI credential and use that to get QTS, which is 1 year vs. 4 years in total. If QTS isnt something you need now, and your happy to work on a US credential in the meantime than going the Teach Now route will get you full QTS and you wont have to do induction allowing you to work your ITT/EPP year and not requiring you to find a DS or a BSO to do your induction year, assuming you dont want to be a NQT forever.

What do you mean by "value"? A PGCE is an academic qualification thats half a Masters degree of credits/units. If you were going to do a Masters degree in edu, those credits/units have a lot of value compared to the Teach Now program which is only worth credits/units at their own Masters program. Both routes will get you a credential. The Teach Now program will get you a professional grade credential, though you will have to renew it every 4 years or transition it to HI and then possibly CA to avoid the PD renewal requirements. The PGCE will get you NQT QTS, which is an entry grade credential, but its a lifetime credential you dont have to do PD for, but you will have to do induction if you want full QTS.
If your going to stay in IE for your career being an NQT isnt going to be a problem until you get to the 1st/elite tier BSs where being an NQT means your going to be up against ITs who did induction and have full QTS, and little things matter more the higher the tier. Both BSs and ASs hire ITs from the other side of the pond, but there is a preference for those who have familiarity and experience with those NC programs and curriculum.
If your going to return to the UK and you want to teach in a maintained DS than getting full QTS is very important, youre more marketable if you dont require an induction program. If thats what you want to do though, and thats your eventual end game, id consider doing your PGCE/PGDE in Scotland or Ireland as opposed to England. Its a lot easier to go from Scotland or Ireland to England for QTS than it is to go from England to Scotland/Ireland. England will give you full QTS one you have full registration with the GTC, even after you have full QTS from England you will only get provisional registration and have to do a provisional teaching year with the GTC to get full registration. Otherwise, again it depends on your timing requirements, your going to be in IE for 3 years teaching on the DC credential until you can qualify for the HI credential and can get QTS, thats basically two contracts or 4 years teaching in IE, before you can go back or get full QTS.

If you go the short route, Teach Now, immediate QTS, they arent asking for visa copies yet, but thats probably the next interim step with any DC credential applicant applying for QTS. The long term next step after that will be requiring a letter of completion from the IS/DS for field experience for all US credential holders for QTS.
Will402
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Re: PGCE vs Teach Now

Post by Will402 »

Thank you for your fantastically detailed and helpful reply.

I would like to follow up on a few things;

The deceptive way you mentioned, do you know of folk who have tried this method? I don't mind going down this path but I would be cautious to do it if it carried risks.

It's not essential for me to get QTS, i'm British and would feel a little more secure in the knowledge that I have it. Maybe also I'm concerned about future employers being puzzled as to why a Brit has a US teaching certificate. Do you think this could have an effect? But really I have no plans to return to the UK. In fact I would like to get into IB schools and stay there so not even overly concerned with British curriculum schools.

This is also what I meant by the value of the certificate. Would a future employer value the fact I have done a PGCE over someone who has gained the certification via Teach Now? Is education looked at a few schools down the line (in experience terms?) Again coming from a non American.

Aren't asking for visa copies? What do you mean? Do you think in the future the 'teachnow and teachready' methods will be easily worked out by potential employers and devalued? This is my concern.

Thank you again,

Will
PsyGuy
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Post by PsyGuy »

@Will402

Th TCL/TRA change for Teach now as very, very recent, in the last 6 months of this year, and its not even official, its someone in management made an interpretation and issued a memo. When official statutory guidance is issued with the next revision (coming up soon) it will probably have a formal requirement to provide evidence of completing field experience within the US/CAN/AUS/. Ive advised some others about the deceptive/subterfuge option, but bragging about it is not something smart people do when they want to get away with something.

Youre going to have recruiters an leadership ask you why youre English and you have a US credential, its not a hard question to answer, and theres nothing wrong with it, but recruiters do have preferences and being English with a US credential you arent taking advantage of being English and having a PGCE and full QTS, thats the path your going to maximize your utility with. Incidentally, it seems counter intuitive but you can do them in reverse. You can get the US credential get QTS and then complete a PGCE.

While there are certainly IB "world schools" (IBWS) int he classical definition of them term in which an entire ISs grade level curriculm is comprised of IB programs, its much more common for an NC, such as BS to use IB DIP as a SLL program instead of A* or IGCSE or as an honors track along with their SLL certificate, such that while they have IB programs they asre still very much BSs and ASs in regard to their non IB NCs. Just because Hogwarts BS has an IB DIP program the rest of the BS both curriculum, meds/peds/asst, and ethos are still very much a BS.

Well yes there is some bias and preference for a PGCE as an academic pathway to a credential. There are not a trivial number of recruiters and leadership (more so in BSs than ASs) that strongly believe that ITs/DTs are best prepared by a series of traditional courses and studies. The Teach Now program is a skills based pathway, there are no courses that result in graduate or undergraduate units that you can take to another Uni. Teach Nows credits are for practical purposes only useful if you do their Masters program, whereas your PGCE units are half a Masters that if your going to stay in IE, your probably going to be looking at a Masters at some point to increase your resumes utility and marketability, and those PGCE units/credits are going to be worth something in a lot more Unis in the future. QTS doesnt have PD requirements to renew, its valid for life (currently) most US credentials require renewal about every 5 years and most states require PD coursework to renew them.

For a foreign IT/DT to have studied in the US to get the DC credential they would have either needed a student visa to study at a DC Uni or would have had a work visa to have done field experience in the US. Its easy enough for the TCL/TRA to ask for a copy/scan of the visa page in your passport, permitting you to have done that. The TCL/TRA doesnt rally care all that much where Americans are doing their field experience, what concerns them is circumventing the EPP/ITT pathway of obtaining QTS domestically for UK DTs/ITs.

No, your DC credential doesnt indicate which pathway you used to obtain it. It matters more early in your career, but as you build experience and success how you got your credential becomes less important. At some point your going to get a Masters anyway and no ones going to care ho you got your credential.
Will402
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Re: PGCE vs Teach Now

Post by Will402 »

So in short.

US credential won't market me favourably

Teach now to QTS is up in the air and potentially closed off.

Damn not the news I wanted but appreciate your knowledge and honestly.

Can I ask why do you mention I will likely complete a masters in the future?
SideOut
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Joined: Sun Mar 03, 2019 7:33 pm

Re: PGCE vs Teach Now

Post by SideOut »

@PsyGuy,

Sorry to slightly hijack the thread. However, to clarify, what in particular is raising the red flag regarding Teach Now with the TCL/TRA? Is it simply the fact that it is a TPI (and would all TPI routes now face the same scrutiny?)? Or has the Teach Now program in particular been singled out?

I ask because I recently completed the TeacherReady program and had planned on applying for QTS as soon as my Florida credential is issued. I'm just wondering if I should expect the same reply when I make my application.

Thanks,

SideOut
PsyGuy
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Post by PsyGuy »

@Will402

A US crdential ill market you a lot more favorably than a PGCEi or something else, teach Now still provides a full professional grade credential, but for a British IT who has the option of a PGCE course and QTS, thats better marketability and utility. Some ITs cant do that though, they cant go back and take a year to do a course, some need to or want to keep working and Teach Now provides options to do that.

Just statistics, the percentage of ITs ho have or get a Masters who are on a career path in IE is around 75%, though its higher for US ITs over UK ITs.

@SideOut

The OTT pathway of mutual recognition was attractive enough that it was circumventing the TCL/TRA pathway of PGCE -> Induction -> QTS for a foreign pathway that provided a more attractive option to full QTS with less risk, less time, lower financial costs, and less work. It started a couple years ago with a US company that was working with or for Teach Now as a QTS provider in the UK.

Its specifically Teach Now, theres basically three pathways for a foreigner, non-US citizen to do an EPP/ITT program OS and get a credential. The first, is the MA provisional route, its an assessment based route, but it only grants you an entry grade credential the TCL/TRA wont accept for QTS. The second is the CT route that has an experiential pathway that an IT who did a PGCEi could potentially use, that if they have enough experience to get the provisional credential than the TCL/TRA is likely to award QTS. Its possible though unlikely the TCL/TRA would award QTS based on the experiential pathway to an initial certificate. The third is Teach Now and the DC standard credential. The other to common pathways the Utah (UT) APT credential and the Florida (FL) Teach Ready program dont award an actual credential to foreign applicants and candidates. Be a non-US Citizen, permenant resident and all you get at the end of Teach Ready is a letter of eligibility, which isnt a credential and wont get you QTS.
The practice guideline effecting Teach Now isnt a concern to the TCL/TRA currently, they dont care about Americans and where they did their field experience to get a FL credential and giving them QTS. They care about Brits and to a lessor extent Europeans circumventing assessment against the UK NC teaching standards getting into UK DE DSs without UK formation and preparation. The Teach Now pathway was a one year program, you really couldnt fail, had no connection to the UK teaching standards, meds/peds and saved the DT induction.

I doubt very much at this time you will have an issue with Teach Ready and the FL credential.
SideOut
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Re: PGCE vs Teach Now

Post by SideOut »

PsyGuy,

Cheers, thanks for that reply.

SideOut
GrumblesMcGee
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Joined: Wed Apr 17, 2019 7:53 pm

Re: PGCE vs Teach Now

Post by GrumblesMcGee »

1. I think we're going to need some updating on the acronyms page(s). They're really scant and just in this post I'm seeing plenty that aren't on the other (https://internationalschoolsreview.com/ ... nym#p51859) two (https://internationalschoolsreview.com/ ... ARY#p43795) PsyGuy lists that popped up when I searched. Right off the bat: TCL/TRA, GTC, TPI, OTT, APT...

2. Similar question to the OP and SideOut. Now that I'm jumping ship to IE, another former colleague is thinking of joining me. They have a Ph.D. and are going to get an ABCTE (American Board) certification. I doubt they'll need a state-issued license (I didn't, but it looks like I could've gotten one in WI), but what are the best state options for them if they want the license? Early research suggests WI, MA (although that would require additional exams), and maybe MO and HI (HI's wording was vague).
PsyGuy
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Post by PsyGuy »

@GrumblesMcGee

I updated the Glossary here:
https://internationalschoolsreview.com/ ... f=1&t=6123
but have reposted for your convenience:

TCL = Teachers College for Learning and Leadership, the precursor name of the regulating authority in England of QTS.
TRA = Teacher Regulation Agency; the current regulating authority in England for QTS (See TCL).
GTC = General Teaching Council; a generic term for the regulating authority in the UK outside of England. General Teaching Council is used in Scotland, General Teaching Council for Northern Ireland (GTCNI) is used in Northern Ireland, The Teaching Council (TC) is used in Ireland and in Wales its the Education Workforce Council (EWC), which used to be the General Teaching Council for Wales.
OTT = Overseas Trained Teacher; a term used by the TCL/TRA to indicate a current, professionally trained teacher from the USA, CAN, or AUS. Typically used in the forum when discussing the application for QTS by way of mutual recognition.
APT = Alternative Pathway to Teaching; an assessment route to a entry grade credential in Utah

They could, it would be a waste of resources and coin. Assuming their doctorate degree is in a teaching content subject MO offers an initial credential that they can renew without doing any sort of PD. Essentially your initial credential expires and you just apply for issuance of a new one, the MEGA examination validity doesnt expire. The requirement is passing the MO MEGA exam in 063 Professional Knowledge: Secondary and completing an application.
GrumblesMcGee
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Re: PGCE vs Teach Now

Post by GrumblesMcGee »

@PsyGuy

I appreciate you updating the glossary. I'm sure it will be a big help to many.

As for the U.S. state certification, I'm not sure they'll want to go through another examination process after completing the ABCTE.
PsyGuy
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Post by PsyGuy »

@GrumblesMcGee

So skip the ABCTE program. Its not accomplishing anything that isnt available from th MO doctoral route for an initial credential. Its cost and resources.
GrumblesMcGee
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Re: Reply

Post by GrumblesMcGee »

PsyGuy wrote:
> @GrumblesMcGee
>
> So skip the ABCTE program. Its not accomplishing anything that isnt
> available from th MO doctoral route for an initial credential. Its cost and
> resources.

Not to hijack the thread (despite the fact that I'm tempted to delve into the complicated balance between convenience and utility when it comes to non-traditional ITs), but I encouraged them to drop the ~$1,700 on ABCTE. I disagree that it's "not accomplishing anything" one wouldn't get from an MO initial credential. I have two reasons.

First, the idea that someone with a doctorate won't gain any subject area knowledge through a certification program is pretty silly. And I'm writing that as someone with a doctorate. Heck, you make a pretty big assumption that my colleague's doctorate "is in a teaching content subject." There are plenty of folks (especially the further away from STEM you go) whose graduate work really doesn't line up neatly with a K-12 subject area. For those folks, even if MO gives them a credential upon passage of their pedagogy test (MEGA), they're still stuck explaining to recruiters that they don't really have any direct subject-area training to prepare them for the positions they're seeking. My reading of the MO doctoral route is that the degree itself must be in the content area (from their website: "such as mathematics or English"), so all those anthropology and sociology and linguistics people can't even go that route anyway. But even for many people I know with Ph.D.s in fields like English, they're really not getting the breadth of subject-area training to prepare them for English Language Arts or English Literature. Their graduate course work is chosen with an eye very specific research programs. Even if they're aiming for a path in higher education, their research-focused departments are grooming them to be "college/university faculty," not "teachers." That means publish or perish, and do well enough in the classroom in your narrow area.

So there is definitely value in some content-area training. Admittedly, that value is going to vary for each individual based on both their training and their desire to grow (vs. just get credentialed easily).

Second, there's the pedagogy training. I'm not sure what your background is, but let me assure you that pedagogy training in higher education is nothing like the pedagogy training K-12 teachers receive. It's not about better or worse (spoiler: it's almost always worse), it's about function. Graduate students are often thrown into classrooms with only a brief crash course in teaching their department's lower-level courses. They'll get some continuing pedagogy training (e.g., a half-credit, once-a-week seminar for the first-year cohort), and the department will do other things to encourage pedagogy training, and maybe the college/university will offer some (voluntary) campus-wide programs. But it's clear what a graduate student's priorities are. Teaching is not at the top of the list, and the training one gets is designed to get you through the courses you're needed in. Beyond that, it's modelling what you see and borrowing from colleagues. Perhaps most importantly, the college classroom and K-12 classroom are radically different.

So even if a Ph.D. can cram/fake their way through a MEGA exam or another pedagogy assessment, there's value in actually getting *some* real training before pivoting to such a different environment.

If I were jumping fully into the tangent (this reply has already gone on longer than I anticipated), I'd flesh this out in terms of the balance between convenience and utility. There are certainly more thorough training programs out there, but they're far less convenient (time and coin). And there are clearly a few somewhat easier paths out there to a license, but you're getting very little in terms of preparation. I'm sure for some Ph.D.s (and other career-changers), convenience outweighs utility so much that they'd get a license from any state/country/warlord possible if the standard were "advanced degree (or X) = instant license." Failing that, I suspect a lot of us are in the "we're going to have to pay and jump through hoops anyway, so let's get some meaningful preparation out of it" mindset.

TLDR: "cost and resources" aren't the only factors, even if you're right about the availability of the path
PsyGuy
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Post by PsyGuy »

@GrumblesMcGee

ABCTE isnt going to provide them with subject matter content, its all meds/peds/asst. You have a doctorate and your a content specialist in it, sure you could have a professor with a different research or content focus than you, but your going to find that everywhere. You could take a course at Harvard and find the prof. is in your same area and learn nothing, and you could find a monk with vast new ideas and concepts on the steps of a museum thats really really worthwhile, but the Harvard course has utility the monk doesnt.
You have a doctorate your supposed to know how to explore the epistemology of knowledge and add to and evaluate the work in your field, so go and do that, pick up a journal, a paper, a book, but your not selling that ABCTE is some grail of teaching.

Lots of DTs and ITs come out of EPP/ITT programs and even Masters programs without direct subject area training or preparation. Its a very common position, that ITs/DTS get subject matter preparation from one department and get the professional education preparation from another.

Anthropology and sociology would be in social studies, linguistics would be ESOL unless it was a modern language such as french.
Thats why MO has the exam so that doctoral candidates can demonstrate that they can do more than publish.

Sure theres value in content area training, but again ABCTE isnt the sole place to get it and its not even a good place to get it.

Oh I know the pedagogy training isnt the same, again thats what the MEGA exam determines. Sure they can cram and fake their way through the exam but they can cram and fake their way through the ABCTE program as well. You can just as easily and in most cases even get better preparation outside of a structured program.

Your costs and resources are very very far apart in terms of getting the MO credential by taking the MEGA exam and going though the ABCTE program.
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