Are there any ex-teachers on this board?

Thames Pirate
Posts: 1150
Joined: Fri Jul 05, 2013 8:06 am

Re: Rep

Post by Thames Pirate »

PsyGuy wrote:
> @Thames Pirate
>
> You can know an IS and city in weeks, its doesnt take years and nothing
> magical happens that extra third year. I push my practice everyday from day
> one, maybe you wait until; the second term, and maybe thats why YOU ned a
> third year. None of that has any bearing on your claim that you have to do
> an extra third year or more or you wont be valuable to future ISs, and your
> career will stagnate and be doomed.


Leaving aside your deliberate misunderstanding of my claims, if you actually believe you can (or should) come in ready to write all new curriculum for a school, you are both a reckless fool and a pompous and proud soloist. Neither is good for a school. To be a team player, you need to know the team, and to write a curriculum or program that works for students, you need to know both what they have and what they need. Both of those things take time.


> You dont need more than two years to get good at "writing new units,
> particularly collaboratively, or building lasting systems or
> programs". Maybe you do, but thats TPF. You can start a service
> project legacy your first term, plan field trips, the same with a
> science-history-librarian program.

Again, you can do this in the latter half of year one, typically for the material in that time. However, for it to be systemic, it needs buy-in, and teachers with one foot out the door don't have that.


You can build over two years but even if
> we assumed you couldnt even if that as impossible, than ISs can offer
> longer contracts and incentivize ITs to stay longer and increase their
> value add.

The two-year protects the IS from having that pompous solo fool sticking around long enough to destroy too much of what was working. If the school wants more time with a teacher, they can and do offer it. If the teacher never takes it at any posting, it's a sign of the teacher's weakness, not the schools'. If it wasn't offered, it's a sign of the teacher's weakness as well. At least that is how recruiters see it.

A leader can sit down with an IT and say, you dont have any
> complaints but you havent done much while your here, I can write a
> reference with hat you have or e can extend your contract another year and
> really give you an opportunity to add value, or whatever. The other ITs who
> ere super awesome an amazing who did all that in 18 months with time to
> spare, they dont have to prove anything with a third or longer year.


Having good or even excellent classroom practice is generally enough for the strong reference and the next two-year contract. If you really want to leave your mark on a school, you need a minimum of three years, probably more unless it's a very young or developing school. Top schools can choose between strong classroom practitioners and strong classroom practitioners who know how to build lasting programs and work as part of a team toward the school's vision. The latter takes time to develop, and top schools will prefer the latter.


Of
> course ISS would like to retain and keep those ITs, theres a way of doing
> that its called "adding value" for the IT.

And a string of two year contracts demonstrates that even this is not enough for the teacher, meaning the next school is also unlikely to entice the person to stay--so they will move on to someone whom they can entice if they want and who has demonstrated buy-in and an investment into the school.

>
> @GrumblesMcGee
>
> We already have terms for those:
>
> Tourist IT is the IT who enters IE and works a couple years (1-4), show the
> spouse a different lifestyle, get the kids an IS diploma, and then they
> leave IE going back to their HOR.
>
> Backpacker IT is the IT who spends less than a year and moves from IS to
> IS. That doesnt mean its illegitimate there are ITs who focus on the
> supply/relief/substitute aspect of IE, and they typically move between IE
> and EE. They might be a month here, a term there, then they move on down
> the trail.
>
> Traveler IT is the IT that does there contract and then moves on to another
> country or region. They come see the sights, live the culture and then move
> on to something new.
>
> House IT is the IT who works for one IS/DS for there contract and then
> staying in the same location because they reside there, typically have
> economic reasons for moving on, move to another IS in the same region.
>
> Dispatch ITs live in a given region and IE is just some portion of their
> work schedule. They combine various less than FTE appointments from one IS
> to another.
>
> We just dont use the backpacker, traveler, dispatch and house IT because
> thy dont come up often and tourist and traveler ITs got commingled.

I love it when PsyGuy invents terms. Should we add these to the already nonsensical glossary thread?
PsyGuy
Posts: 10789
Joined: Wed Oct 12, 2011 9:51 am
Location: Northern Europe

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Post by PsyGuy »

@Heliotrope

I disagree, Ive seen 2 and go ITs who dont invest and Ive seen 3 and 4 and more ITs who dont invest. Do you have data that ALL ITs that stay an extra their or 4th year invest in their ISs. Lots of ITs beyond two years just mind the store and do the minimum. We have lots of those ITs/DTs here.

Well the first appearance of "tourist teacher" that fitting my use dates back to 2012:
https://internationalschoolsreview.com/ ... her#p16552

@Thames Pirate

Sticks and Stones. I didnt misunderstand you, I disagree with you, mainly because your wrong. I take less time than you, Im efficient, your not.

Again you can do this from day one, you dont have to wait until the latter half of the year or term two, because thats what it takes @Thames Pirate, thats just more TPF. Buy in for everyone else doesnt have to take as long as it takes @Thames Pirate, again, more TPF.

Two years protects no one from anything, if an IS has cause you just dismiss them prior to two years. No destruction required.
Its not an ITs weakness at all, if anything its the ISs inability or lack of willingness to add value to the IT extending their stay.

No, more TPF, YOU need a minimum of three years.

It demonstrates that ITs and ISs completed their contractual obligations and thy parted ways. If the IS had offered enough the IT would stay, if the IT didnt stay, the IS didnt offer enough.

Arent all terms "invented" isnt that how terms become terms?
Heliotrope
Posts: 1167
Joined: Sun May 13, 2018 1:48 am

Re: Reply

Post by Heliotrope »

PsyGuy wrote:
> Do you have data that ALL ITs that stay an extra
> their or 4th year invest in their ISs.

No, not all of course (duh!), but they are more likely to do so.



> Well the first appearance of "tourist teacher" that fitting my
> use dates back to 2012:
>
> https://internationalschoolsreview.com/ ... her#p16552

Haha, of course it fits your use, since it's YOU using the term in that post.



> Again you can do this from day one

As a recruiter, I would be extremely wary of any IT that would say this, as he/she is almost certainly grossly overestimating him/herself.
PsyGuy
Posts: 10789
Joined: Wed Oct 12, 2011 9:51 am
Location: Northern Europe

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Post by PsyGuy »

@Heliotrope

No they arent, if they didnt invest in two years what makes you think their going to invest in two more years, you think ITs change?

Yeah, back in 2012, do you have some citation of earlier usage that referenced some other meaning?

Or your underestimating them.
Heliotrope
Posts: 1167
Joined: Sun May 13, 2018 1:48 am

Re: Reply

Post by Heliotrope »

PsyGuy wrote:
> No they arent, if they didnt invest in two years what makes you think their
> going to invest in two more years, you think ITs change?

You're not reading correctly.
I said not all ITs that stay an extra 3rd or 4th year invest in their ISs, but the kind that sticks around past first contract is more likely to do so than the '2 and go'-IT.


> Yeah, back in 2012, do you have some citation of earlier usage that
> referenced some other meaning?

You're quoting yourself to prove a point.


> Or your underestimating them.

I tend to overestimate people rather than underestimate them. But I'm not a fool, so if someone says they don't need to get to know the school, the department, and the students at all, I will recognize them for what they are. And what they are is not a great IT, to put it mildly.
PsyGuy
Posts: 10789
Joined: Wed Oct 12, 2011 9:51 am
Location: Northern Europe

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Post by PsyGuy »

@Heliotrope

Im reading very well, I disagree with your claim that its more likely that ITs staying beyond two years invest more in their IS.

Im citing a date of usage that happens to be myself, do you have data that shows a different earlier usage?

Well you tend to be underestimating them in this example, we share different conclusions about hat ITs can and cant do in what frame of time and to what effect.
Heliotrope
Posts: 1167
Joined: Sun May 13, 2018 1:48 am

Re: Reply

Post by Heliotrope »

PsyGuy wrote:
> @Heliotrope
>
> Im reading very well, I disagree with your claim that its more likely that
> ITs staying beyond two years invest more in their IS.

Ok, let's agree to disagree.


> Im citing a date of usage that happens to be myself, do you have data that
> shows a different earlier usage?

Just 'happens' to be yourself? Not a happenstance. You're quoting yourself to prove a point.
Let's also agree to disagree here.


> Well you tend to be underestimating them in this example, we share
> different conclusions about hat ITs can and cant do in what frame of time
> and to what effect.

I don't think I am.
Let's also agree to disagree here.
PsyGuy
Posts: 10789
Joined: Wed Oct 12, 2011 9:51 am
Location: Northern Europe

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Post by PsyGuy »

@Heliotrope

Some 20% of all posts on this forum are singurley attributed as my contribution. Whose else would they be, and even if it wasnt happenstance how does that change that the term of usage seven years ago is any less valid whether its mine or someone elses. Would it be more valid if some other contributor used it in that form first.

I think you may be.

We disagree
Walter
Posts: 325
Joined: Tue Feb 07, 2012 10:39 am
Location: UK
Contact:

Re: Are there any ex-teachers on this board?

Post by Walter »

Hahahahahahahahahaha - priceless, Dave.
"We just dont use the backpacker, traveler, dispatch and house IT because thy dont come up often and tourist and traveler ITs got commingled."
Especially the word "We".
Thames Pirate
Posts: 1150
Joined: Fri Jul 05, 2013 8:06 am

Re: Reply

Post by Thames Pirate »

PsyGuy wrote:
> Well the first appearance of "tourist teacher" that fitting my
> use dates back to 2012:


Given that I had heard the term at job fairs from multiple people by that time, I would argue that your first use on the forum is hardly indicative of its meaning.


> @Thames Pirate
>
> Sticks and Stones. I didnt misunderstand you, I disagree with you, mainly
> because your wrong. I take less time than you, Im efficient, your not.


If bullying through a curriculum without regard to the people who would help implement it or the needs of the community is "efficient," I would say I am proud not to be that. Since that is not actually what efficient means, I am comfortable with being called inefficient (incorrectly to boot).


>
> Again you can do this from day one, you dont have to wait until the latter
> half of the year or term two, because thats what it takes @Thames Pirate,
> thats just more TPF. Buy in for everyone else doesnt have to take as long
> as it takes @Thames Pirate, again, more TPF.

Buy-in starts with the teacher initiating, but it must be created in others--leadership, team members, students--for a system to be lasting. This takes time and requires their trust in you more than yours in them, and that means it takes time regardless of how "efficient" one is. But I am guessing you don't have a lot of experience with earning trust.



>
> Two years protects no one from anything, if an IS has cause you just
> dismiss them prior to two years. No destruction required.
> Its not an ITs weakness at all, if anything its the ISs inability or lack
> of willingness to add value to the IT extending their stay.

Two years protects ISs, particularly in countries with strong labor laws. Sure, they can just fire anyone at will, but it's not the wisest course when a teacher is not a good fit but is otherwise fine; it leaves kids and staff in a lurch. But perhaps you do not understand what it's like to work at schools that actually have kids' best interest at heart. Or maybe you forgot that these teachers are also an investment, and a school that has paid relocation costs, etc. would be poorly served firing someone so quickly simply because they weren't a good fit. The two year contract protects schools from people doing the one-and-done thing (for those same reasons, frequently moving teachers are not good for the school) unless they break contract, thus giving the school some more freedom in its actions and efforts to recoup costs.

>
> No, more TPF, YOU need a minimum of three years.


Schools generally need three years for systems to become lasting, no matter how much of a wizard you are.


>
> It demonstrates that ITs and ISs completed their contractual obligations
> and thy parted ways. If the IS had offered enough the IT would stay, if the
> IT didnt stay, the IS didnt offer enough.

Oh, so the IT has demonstrated that they are only available at the highest price? Yeah, that's attractive to recruiting schools--when an IT says, "Well, I could have stayed, but they didn't offer me enough."

>
> Arent all terms "invented" isnt that how terms become terms?

Sure, but then they must also be used. I could also make up a random string of phonemes and assign it meaning, but it's useless for communication if nobody actually assigns it the same meaning or understands what idea is being represented by that string of phonemes.
blinky
Posts: 48
Joined: Tue Mar 19, 2013 1:49 pm
Location: Germany

Re: Are there any ex-teachers on this board?

Post by blinky »

OP, I think your question is answered: There are no ex-teachers on this board. There are plenty of bumbling and petty teachers who enjoy reading their own words, however. I recommend going on Reddit for more professional and pertinent advice.
PsyGuy
Posts: 10789
Joined: Wed Oct 12, 2011 9:51 am
Location: Northern Europe

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Post by PsyGuy »

@Thames Pirate

I "heard" well before 2012 its use in the form I described.

I used efficiently correctly. No bullying required, just effective, efficient, competence.
Ive worked with lots of efficient, effective, and competent leadership, team members, students, parents, community and government members.
Three years is a degree, if you and your previous and current "leadership, team members, students," cant successfully get a project done in less than three years, maybe you shouldnt be doing projects.

Why do ISs need protection, they have all the power. If they arent a good fit, how are they otherwise fine. A third of the job fit. Recognizing sunken costs and getting out of a bad investment sooner rather than later is good business practice. How are they saved relocation costs? If an IT is departing now or 2 years from now the relocation costs are the same, your just delaying the cost and at a loss of value. Better to take those costs now and add value with a new IT.

No, systems can be long lasting much much sooner than three years. Saying they cant be done doesnt make it true, theres nothing self authenticating about @Thames Pirate claims.

Thats how business works. Goods and services cost coin, if theyre too expensive for you, dont buy them. The IS bought X years of service at Y price, if they want longer they negotiate a new price Y for additional X years of service.

They are used, thats why the debate over their use and meaning, because we use them. If we didnt use them there would be no argument over their meaning.
Thames Pirate
Posts: 1150
Joined: Fri Jul 05, 2013 8:06 am

Re: Are there any ex-teachers on this board?

Post by Thames Pirate »

Whatever you say.

I think we can all tell that there are good reasons admin might want someone with more experience. Those admin won't hire the 2-2-2-2-2 folks. For those who want to keep their options open, they can act accordingly and stay longer in a place. Those just wanting to travel who care less about the quality of the job will do the 2 and out. But people are aware of the reasoning of admin and can act as works for them.
PsyGuy
Posts: 10789
Joined: Wed Oct 12, 2011 9:51 am
Location: Northern Europe

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Post by PsyGuy »

@Thames Pirate

Yes, I think we can all tell that the IT whose working 2-2-2-2-2 contracts over ten yars is doing something right and marketable to ISs and recruiters. We can all see its fear mongering absurdity that if you again 1) Complete your contract, 2) Have a positive reference and 3) Have an explanation for the movement your in the same place marketability wise as some IT that buys into this story that a to year contract somehow means 3 or more years.
Heliotrope
Posts: 1167
Joined: Sun May 13, 2018 1:48 am

Re: Reply

Post by Heliotrope »

Good ISs (and most ISs in general) prefer to retain staff for longer than 2 years, assuming it's a solid IT.
Even if you don't believe they add more value to the school if they stay longer (which I believe they do), they will cost less (employing one IT for 10 years is cheaper than hiring five 2 year-ITs).

Someone who has a long string of 2 year contracts will be more likely to leave after 2 years again than someone who has demonstrated longer commitments at a previous schools.
Therefore, good (or most) ISs will prefer IT #2, as he/she is more likely to stick around.
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