Let's say that one teacher has a track record of 5, 10, 2, 4 years in successive jobs and another has 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2.
Nothing wrong with either - contracts have been completed etc.
I know the questions this would prompt for me about possible longevity of stay and this would have an influence on decision making.
Are there any ex-teachers on this board?
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secondplace
- Posts: 191
- Joined: Thu Apr 14, 2016 12:40 pm
Reply
@Thames Pirate
You completed a contract showing your commitment, you have a positive reference letter showing you see things through, and having an intelligent response for the moving around, shows its not aimless. All covered by 1) You complete your contract. 2) Have a positive reference. 3) Have a reasonable response for the movement in an interview.
@secondplace
Yeah, the second teacher is the preferred IT.
You completed a contract showing your commitment, you have a positive reference letter showing you see things through, and having an intelligent response for the moving around, shows its not aimless. All covered by 1) You complete your contract. 2) Have a positive reference. 3) Have a reasonable response for the movement in an interview.
@secondplace
Yeah, the second teacher is the preferred IT.
Discussion
Its a process to get QTS without the need for induction, but its a lot easier and cost efficient compared to doing AO or another QTS route.
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MusicTravel30
- Posts: 28
- Joined: Fri May 18, 2018 8:52 am
Re: Are there any ex-teachers on this board?
Thank you for the responses.
1. True. They have all been very different experiences.
2. I started to feel the burnout last year, to be honest.
3. The students are awesome. Actually, in reference to #2, a large part of the burnout is from parents and, as far as parents, just a small minority. Some are awesome (20%), most are there for the major school events and that is it (70 or 75%) but there are the occasional ones (5 or 10%) who really become exhausting and sadly, those occasional ones take up way too much energy, at least for me personally.
As far as students, just in this past week I've enjoyed conversations with students who have reflected on their favorite assignments from the year such as a recycling project I did with them or past tense photo album. One student told me I was his "best teacher friend in the school" and two other students left me very beautiful notes. I was amazed at how insightful the letters were considering they are in 5th grade.
In the previous school my wife worked in high school and an 11th grader with a history of aggression nearly broke her arm. The lack of response from admin really disgusted me and really marred the rest of the year. I was ready to quit the day of the incident and talked to my wife about my intention, assuming she was ready to quit too. To my shock, she actually convinced me to stay and she wanted to finish the contract too. This year I have had a difficult relationship with another member of admin, as I mentioned before, which I think is another reason for the burnout (admin the past two years).
4. I see what you mean. But at the same time I wanted to make sure I was doing things according to the philosophy of the school. Every school has those little differences. Or in some cases really big, for example, a few years ago I worked at a Choice Theory school and I was very vocal in letting admin know "This is my first experience with choice theory, please visit my class early and often to make sure I am implementing this theory properly in class." That was an extreme example but I feel like first year teachers should be observed at least once a month for the first few months to make sure they are adapting to the school culture and how things are done. Or at least observed more often than vets. Maybe I need to be more confident in my abilities but I also prefer to let admin know I am transparent more than fishing for anything.
5. Thanks for the input on point 5. There was one member of admin who was awesome to talk to, which was a huge positive. Just someone who would listen to me vent and offered great advice.
6. Thank you for your point of view on point number 6!
7. Oh I know! Sorry if I gave information to the contrary. One of the things I enjoyed in my last job was how independent we all were and how everyone was cool with that. I know not everyone can be your friend and, in fact, I feel like one thing some teachers did not like about me at this school was I liked to grade and plan by myself. I mean, I would check in with them when needed, share resources and check quizzes they made (and vis versa) but largely just preferred the silence of my class compared to the library where there was more talking than planning.
Well, thank you for all that you said. I don't think I remembered every point so sorry if I missed responding to something specific.
1. True. They have all been very different experiences.
2. I started to feel the burnout last year, to be honest.
3. The students are awesome. Actually, in reference to #2, a large part of the burnout is from parents and, as far as parents, just a small minority. Some are awesome (20%), most are there for the major school events and that is it (70 or 75%) but there are the occasional ones (5 or 10%) who really become exhausting and sadly, those occasional ones take up way too much energy, at least for me personally.
As far as students, just in this past week I've enjoyed conversations with students who have reflected on their favorite assignments from the year such as a recycling project I did with them or past tense photo album. One student told me I was his "best teacher friend in the school" and two other students left me very beautiful notes. I was amazed at how insightful the letters were considering they are in 5th grade.
In the previous school my wife worked in high school and an 11th grader with a history of aggression nearly broke her arm. The lack of response from admin really disgusted me and really marred the rest of the year. I was ready to quit the day of the incident and talked to my wife about my intention, assuming she was ready to quit too. To my shock, she actually convinced me to stay and she wanted to finish the contract too. This year I have had a difficult relationship with another member of admin, as I mentioned before, which I think is another reason for the burnout (admin the past two years).
4. I see what you mean. But at the same time I wanted to make sure I was doing things according to the philosophy of the school. Every school has those little differences. Or in some cases really big, for example, a few years ago I worked at a Choice Theory school and I was very vocal in letting admin know "This is my first experience with choice theory, please visit my class early and often to make sure I am implementing this theory properly in class." That was an extreme example but I feel like first year teachers should be observed at least once a month for the first few months to make sure they are adapting to the school culture and how things are done. Or at least observed more often than vets. Maybe I need to be more confident in my abilities but I also prefer to let admin know I am transparent more than fishing for anything.
5. Thanks for the input on point 5. There was one member of admin who was awesome to talk to, which was a huge positive. Just someone who would listen to me vent and offered great advice.
6. Thank you for your point of view on point number 6!
7. Oh I know! Sorry if I gave information to the contrary. One of the things I enjoyed in my last job was how independent we all were and how everyone was cool with that. I know not everyone can be your friend and, in fact, I feel like one thing some teachers did not like about me at this school was I liked to grade and plan by myself. I mean, I would check in with them when needed, share resources and check quizzes they made (and vis versa) but largely just preferred the silence of my class compared to the library where there was more talking than planning.
Well, thank you for all that you said. I don't think I remembered every point so sorry if I missed responding to something specific.
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Heliotrope
- Posts: 1167
- Joined: Sun May 13, 2018 1:48 am
Re: Are there any ex-teachers on this board?
secondplace wrote:
> Let's say that one teacher has a track record of 5, 10, 2, 4 years in
> successive jobs and another has 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2.
The first one (5, 10, 2, 4) would have a better chance at tier 1 or 2 IS, all other things being equal.
> Let's say that one teacher has a track record of 5, 10, 2, 4 years in
> successive jobs and another has 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2.
The first one (5, 10, 2, 4) would have a better chance at tier 1 or 2 IS, all other things being equal.
Reply
@MusicTravel30
Sounds more like in summary this specific IS experiences just isnt your best and most positive. That would be alleviated with moving into hotel management, but it can also be alleviated with a new IS as well. You need a better fit that grows you as an IT.
@Heliotrope
We disagree, the second one has better marketability for an upper tier IS.
Sounds more like in summary this specific IS experiences just isnt your best and most positive. That would be alleviated with moving into hotel management, but it can also be alleviated with a new IS as well. You need a better fit that grows you as an IT.
@Heliotrope
We disagree, the second one has better marketability for an upper tier IS.
Re: Are there any ex-teachers on this board?
Dave, you do talk such cobblers. No Top Tier school would hire a teacher who's had ten successive 2-year contracts. The only reason I can imagine you'd write such fatuous tripe is that you're looking at your own track record and sending up a silent prayer that someone, somewhere will find your resume worth a punt.
In the meantime, for the more intelligent of our readers, please understand that no serious school is interested in "tourist teachers" or "hoppers". Doubtless, Dave will try to turn this advice into "admin-fear-mongering"; this is his standard riposte to people who know what they are talking about.
Fact is that, from a school's perspective, a teacher who stays in a post for only two years really doesn't make much of a contribution when you factor in the time it takes to bed in during Year 1 and the time (and interest) it takes to find a new job in Year 2. If you're looking for a job in a good school, you need to be able to demonstrate that you have enough talent for previous schools to offer you repeat contracts and that you have stuck around long enough to make a mark.
In the meantime, for the more intelligent of our readers, please understand that no serious school is interested in "tourist teachers" or "hoppers". Doubtless, Dave will try to turn this advice into "admin-fear-mongering"; this is his standard riposte to people who know what they are talking about.
Fact is that, from a school's perspective, a teacher who stays in a post for only two years really doesn't make much of a contribution when you factor in the time it takes to bed in during Year 1 and the time (and interest) it takes to find a new job in Year 2. If you're looking for a job in a good school, you need to be able to demonstrate that you have enough talent for previous schools to offer you repeat contracts and that you have stuck around long enough to make a mark.
Re: Are there any ex-teachers on this board?
Walter wrote:
> In the meantime, for the more intelligent of our readers, please understand that
> no serious school is interested in "tourist teachers" or "hoppers". Doubtless, Dave
> will try to turn this advice into "admin-fear-mongering"; this is his standard riposte
Two years is not a tourist,unless I've misunderstood the term all these years. I thought by tourist teacher, one meant like 3 - 6 months and then a runner. Two years is in fact a solid investment.
> In the meantime, for the more intelligent of our readers, please understand that
> no serious school is interested in "tourist teachers" or "hoppers". Doubtless, Dave
> will try to turn this advice into "admin-fear-mongering"; this is his standard riposte
Two years is not a tourist,unless I've misunderstood the term all these years. I thought by tourist teacher, one meant like 3 - 6 months and then a runner. Two years is in fact a solid investment.
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Illiane_Blues
Re: Are there any ex-teachers on this board?
Doctor wrote:
> Two years is not a tourist,unless I've misunderstood the term all these years. I
> thought by tourist teacher, one meant like 3 - 6 months and then a runner. Two years
> is in fact a solid investment.
An IT with only 2 year contracts is called a tourist teacher, as it's the minimum investment you can make at a school without breaking contract.
Good to great schools will prefer an IT that has made more than the minimum investment at least one but preferably more schools.
A teacher with 5, 10, 2, 4 years is way more competitive for a job than one with 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2 years.
If you're looking for a longterm committed relationship, you'll be more optimistic about someone who has had one or more of those already, then about someone who has only had one night-stands. Perhaps not the perfect metaphor but I'm tired.
> Two years is not a tourist,unless I've misunderstood the term all these years. I
> thought by tourist teacher, one meant like 3 - 6 months and then a runner. Two years
> is in fact a solid investment.
An IT with only 2 year contracts is called a tourist teacher, as it's the minimum investment you can make at a school without breaking contract.
Good to great schools will prefer an IT that has made more than the minimum investment at least one but preferably more schools.
A teacher with 5, 10, 2, 4 years is way more competitive for a job than one with 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2 years.
If you're looking for a longterm committed relationship, you'll be more optimistic about someone who has had one or more of those already, then about someone who has only had one night-stands. Perhaps not the perfect metaphor but I'm tired.
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Thames Pirate
- Posts: 1150
- Joined: Fri Jul 05, 2013 8:06 am
Re: Are there any ex-teachers on this board?
Doctor wrote:
> Two years is not a tourist,unless I've misunderstood the term all these years. I
> thought by tourist teacher, one meant like 3 - 6 months and then a runner. Two years
> is in fact a solid investment.
Not for the school. You don't have time to start new programs that will last, to upgrade or revamp anything--heck, even introducing a new choice of novel in lit class or introducing and refining a beloved project or field trip to the local environment won't happen in that time. For something to become part of the school in a positive and meaningful way, two years is not enough. If they are just looking for warm bodies, great--if you have a string of two year contracts, you are probably not the type to pull a runner. You come, see the local community for two years--enough to learn a bit of the language and how things like banking work and where the great bars are--and you move to the next destination to do the same. You aren't there to build the school culture/community and aren't interested in leaving your mark. To leadership you are taking what you can from a destination and not investing. Thus a string of 2 year contracts means you are a "tourist teacher."
Again, nothing wrong with honouring contracts, then moving on, especially early in the career or between two longer contracts. Just know that in the long run, schools get leery and wonder if you are worth the investment, particularly better schools with better/wiser leadership.
Illiane_Blues wrote:
> An IT with only 2 year contracts is called a tourist teacher, as it's the minimum
> investment you can make at a school without breaking contract.
> Good to great schools will prefer an IT that has made more than the minimum
> investment at least one but preferably more schools.
> A teacher with 5, 10, 2, 4 years is way more competitive for a job than one with 2,
> 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2 years.
>
> If you're looking for a longterm committed relationship, you'll be more optimistic
> about someone who has had one or more of those already, then about someone who has
> only had one night-stands. Perhaps not the perfect metaphor but I'm tired.
It's perfectly sufficient, especially when the only person who seems to disagree is someone who would probably change his tune and talk around his change if certain people here suggest the 2-2-2 model is better. Best not to spend much time going down the rabbit hole and finding other ways to state the obvious when you know he's just going to disagree because the initial point came from me and were supported by sid and Walter.
> Two years is not a tourist,unless I've misunderstood the term all these years. I
> thought by tourist teacher, one meant like 3 - 6 months and then a runner. Two years
> is in fact a solid investment.
Not for the school. You don't have time to start new programs that will last, to upgrade or revamp anything--heck, even introducing a new choice of novel in lit class or introducing and refining a beloved project or field trip to the local environment won't happen in that time. For something to become part of the school in a positive and meaningful way, two years is not enough. If they are just looking for warm bodies, great--if you have a string of two year contracts, you are probably not the type to pull a runner. You come, see the local community for two years--enough to learn a bit of the language and how things like banking work and where the great bars are--and you move to the next destination to do the same. You aren't there to build the school culture/community and aren't interested in leaving your mark. To leadership you are taking what you can from a destination and not investing. Thus a string of 2 year contracts means you are a "tourist teacher."
Again, nothing wrong with honouring contracts, then moving on, especially early in the career or between two longer contracts. Just know that in the long run, schools get leery and wonder if you are worth the investment, particularly better schools with better/wiser leadership.
Illiane_Blues wrote:
> An IT with only 2 year contracts is called a tourist teacher, as it's the minimum
> investment you can make at a school without breaking contract.
> Good to great schools will prefer an IT that has made more than the minimum
> investment at least one but preferably more schools.
> A teacher with 5, 10, 2, 4 years is way more competitive for a job than one with 2,
> 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2 years.
>
> If you're looking for a longterm committed relationship, you'll be more optimistic
> about someone who has had one or more of those already, then about someone who has
> only had one night-stands. Perhaps not the perfect metaphor but I'm tired.
It's perfectly sufficient, especially when the only person who seems to disagree is someone who would probably change his tune and talk around his change if certain people here suggest the 2-2-2 model is better. Best not to spend much time going down the rabbit hole and finding other ways to state the obvious when you know he's just going to disagree because the initial point came from me and were supported by sid and Walter.
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wrldtrvlr123
- Posts: 1173
- Joined: Sat Feb 06, 2010 10:59 am
- Location: Japan
Re: Are there any ex-teachers on this board?
I would agree that a history of 2 and out and is not necessarily a deal breaker or even a huge red flag for many schools. I do think though it is one factor that can be compared unfavorably to other candidates who have a history of longer stays with at least one school (and I say that as someone whose longest stay was only two years before being hired with DoDEA).
It does make sense if you are honest with yourself. If you leave after two years, then it generally means that you started looking for a new job after one year (or so) at the school. While that doesn’t always mean that you would be totally checked out after one year, it’s human nature to not be totally engaged and committed mentally and/or emotionally if you know you have one foot out the door already (and current/prospective admin types are aware of this).
It does make sense if you are honest with yourself. If you leave after two years, then it generally means that you started looking for a new job after one year (or so) at the school. While that doesn’t always mean that you would be totally checked out after one year, it’s human nature to not be totally engaged and committed mentally and/or emotionally if you know you have one foot out the door already (and current/prospective admin types are aware of this).
Reply
@Doctor
A tourist teacher isnt an IT who does successive 2 year contracts, nor is it an IT who spends a couple months and pulls a runner. A tourist IT is one who is looking to spend a couple years in the EU or somewhere desirable, travel a bit, give the spouse the expat lifestyle for a bit, get the kids a diploma from a private/independent IS and then go back to whatever they were doing before hand. They arent there for the students, or the program or the IS, or even the profession.
Two years and done your value neutral to an IS, but if an IS wanted value positive they would offer only longer contracts. Again, 1) You complete your contract. 2) Have a positive reference. 3) Have a reasonable response for the movement in an interview, then your fine.
If an IS wanted you to stay around and put more value into the IS, or make your mark bolder, or whatever than the IS would incentivize you to stay instead of this fear mongering that your career is doomed or crippled for completing your obligations, based on some absurdity that ITs owe the IS some value positive, but the IS doesnt owe you anything more than the contract. Its fear mongering, and smoke and mirrors.
I absolutely agree if your leaving after 2 years you started looking after your first year, and if thats an issue to an IS, they should have made that first year worth staying around for, and then they would get more value, but fear mongering is cheap.
A tourist teacher isnt an IT who does successive 2 year contracts, nor is it an IT who spends a couple months and pulls a runner. A tourist IT is one who is looking to spend a couple years in the EU or somewhere desirable, travel a bit, give the spouse the expat lifestyle for a bit, get the kids a diploma from a private/independent IS and then go back to whatever they were doing before hand. They arent there for the students, or the program or the IS, or even the profession.
Two years and done your value neutral to an IS, but if an IS wanted value positive they would offer only longer contracts. Again, 1) You complete your contract. 2) Have a positive reference. 3) Have a reasonable response for the movement in an interview, then your fine.
If an IS wanted you to stay around and put more value into the IS, or make your mark bolder, or whatever than the IS would incentivize you to stay instead of this fear mongering that your career is doomed or crippled for completing your obligations, based on some absurdity that ITs owe the IS some value positive, but the IS doesnt owe you anything more than the contract. Its fear mongering, and smoke and mirrors.
I absolutely agree if your leaving after 2 years you started looking after your first year, and if thats an issue to an IS, they should have made that first year worth staying around for, and then they would get more value, but fear mongering is cheap.
Re: Are there any ex-teachers on this board?
PsyGuy wrote:
> @Doctor
>
>
> Two years and done your value neutral to an IS, but if an IS wanted value positive
> they would offer only longer contracts. Again, 1) You complete your contract. 2)
> Have a positive reference. 3) Have a reasonable response for the movement in an
> interview, then your fine.
>
It's hard to dispute this point: if the IS wants to ensure value - added they should offer three year contracts. I would sign sign a 3 year contract if I liked the school.
> @Doctor
>
>
> Two years and done your value neutral to an IS, but if an IS wanted value positive
> they would offer only longer contracts. Again, 1) You complete your contract. 2)
> Have a positive reference. 3) Have a reasonable response for the movement in an
> interview, then your fine.
>
It's hard to dispute this point: if the IS wants to ensure value - added they should offer three year contracts. I would sign sign a 3 year contract if I liked the school.
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Thames Pirate
- Posts: 1150
- Joined: Fri Jul 05, 2013 8:06 am
Re: Are there any ex-teachers on this board?
Doctor wrote:
> PsyGuy wrote:
>
> It's hard to dispute this point: if the IS wants to ensure value - added they should
> offer three year contracts. I would sign sign a 3 year contract if I liked the
> school.
I don't think anyone is disputing the fact that if an IS wants you, they would offer a third year. What we are saying is that when they do, one should take it from time to time to show that you a) had the opportunity to stay, and b) are willing to value-add to the school. If you don't have anything but a string of 2s, a director will think that you were either never offered to stay or were so picky you hated everywhere and would end up being. Negative Nancy on campus and unwilling to invest/pull your weight.
Also, the tourist teachers I have known have been overwhelmingly single, often young people wanting their adventure, and preferring SE Asia because travel is cheap. Families prefer stability and investment, particularly as the kids get older.
> PsyGuy wrote:
>
> It's hard to dispute this point: if the IS wants to ensure value - added they should
> offer three year contracts. I would sign sign a 3 year contract if I liked the
> school.
I don't think anyone is disputing the fact that if an IS wants you, they would offer a third year. What we are saying is that when they do, one should take it from time to time to show that you a) had the opportunity to stay, and b) are willing to value-add to the school. If you don't have anything but a string of 2s, a director will think that you were either never offered to stay or were so picky you hated everywhere and would end up being. Negative Nancy on campus and unwilling to invest/pull your weight.
Also, the tourist teachers I have known have been overwhelmingly single, often young people wanting their adventure, and preferring SE Asia because travel is cheap. Families prefer stability and investment, particularly as the kids get older.
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interteach
- Posts: 210
- Joined: Wed Nov 29, 2006 2:25 pm
Re: Are there any ex-teachers on this board?
As a former recruiter, a string of 2 year contracts is definitely a tourist teacher.
Even two 2 year contracts in a row requires explanation. Schools are looking for teachers willing to commit to the school and to take their time exploring the location. There are some legitimate reasons for a couple of short term contracts in a row, but it will certainly be explored in following up on references.
There are those interested in a career in international teaching. There are those who want to travel while holding down a job in a foreign country. You can often spot them easily at a hiring fair or a Skype interview. Unless you are desperate to fill a position, these types aren't usually going to make the commitment to the school that justifies the investment in them. As teachers they are generally mediocre at best.
Even two 2 year contracts in a row requires explanation. Schools are looking for teachers willing to commit to the school and to take their time exploring the location. There are some legitimate reasons for a couple of short term contracts in a row, but it will certainly be explored in following up on references.
There are those interested in a career in international teaching. There are those who want to travel while holding down a job in a foreign country. You can often spot them easily at a hiring fair or a Skype interview. Unless you are desperate to fill a position, these types aren't usually going to make the commitment to the school that justifies the investment in them. As teachers they are generally mediocre at best.