@secondplace
Diogenes knocking on your door, getting your honest man award soon. Everyone lies, and anyone who says they dont is lying.
@psyguy
Yes, we all lie from time to time. But these lies are part of maintaining the social fabric of life - 'Yes, that dinner was delicious' to 'No, it's no problem at all, it's not out of my way' to 'think nothing of it' etc. etc.
Also, I don't doubt that people lie about bigger things including work experience and qualifications.
I am taking a position that they shouldn't. And I am comfortable with that position because I know that I don't.
Do I think less of people who lie and cheat to get ahead? Yes. I don't think they are being smart and clever, I think that they are lacking in moral character. I doubt they care about this.
We are all responsible for our own actions and have our own moral codes.
Breaking Contracts
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Psychometrika
- Posts: 74
- Joined: Sun Nov 20, 2016 10:08 pm
Re: Breaking Contracts
@Sid
I'm curious. How do people prove what they have done 10+ years ago in an international setting? Lots of teachers have bummed around the world doing odd jobs, tutoring, or just traveled before they got serious about their career. How do prove something like that when everyone related has moved on? I doubt a random travel buddy can just vouch for you.
I get the need for child protection, but why is a clean criminal background check not sufficient? Also, where does this end? I'm going on vacation to the Philippines in a few weeks. Am I going to need to document every vacation I ever take complete with proof that I was not up to something nefarious?
I'm curious. How do people prove what they have done 10+ years ago in an international setting? Lots of teachers have bummed around the world doing odd jobs, tutoring, or just traveled before they got serious about their career. How do prove something like that when everyone related has moved on? I doubt a random travel buddy can just vouch for you.
I get the need for child protection, but why is a clean criminal background check not sufficient? Also, where does this end? I'm going on vacation to the Philippines in a few weeks. Am I going to need to document every vacation I ever take complete with proof that I was not up to something nefarious?
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wrldtrvlr123
- Posts: 1173
- Joined: Sat Feb 06, 2010 10:59 am
- Location: Japan
Re: Breaking Contracts
Psychometrika wrote:
> @Sid
>
> I'm curious. How do people prove what they have done 10+ years ago in an international
> setting? Lots of teachers have bummed around the world doing odd jobs, tutoring,
> or just traveled before they got serious about their career. How do prove something
> like that when everyone related has moved on? I doubt a random travel buddy can
> just vouch for you.
>
> I get the need for child protection, but why is a clean criminal background check
> not sufficient? Also, where does this end? I'm going on vacation to the Philippines
> in a few weeks. Am I going to need to document every vacation I ever take complete
> with proof that I was not up to something nefarious?
========================
Not Sid, but probably because a number of people are all too willing to lie about their experiences to cover up a bad situation. Possibly because of some other .'s unprofessionalism/wrong doing (e.g. incompetent/bullying leadership, horrible students/unreasonable parents, etc.) but possibly because of some wrong doing on their part (e.g. child safety issues, incompetence, bad attitude, etc.).
> @Sid
>
> I'm curious. How do people prove what they have done 10+ years ago in an international
> setting? Lots of teachers have bummed around the world doing odd jobs, tutoring,
> or just traveled before they got serious about their career. How do prove something
> like that when everyone related has moved on? I doubt a random travel buddy can
> just vouch for you.
>
> I get the need for child protection, but why is a clean criminal background check
> not sufficient? Also, where does this end? I'm going on vacation to the Philippines
> in a few weeks. Am I going to need to document every vacation I ever take complete
> with proof that I was not up to something nefarious?
========================
Not Sid, but probably because a number of people are all too willing to lie about their experiences to cover up a bad situation. Possibly because of some other .'s unprofessionalism/wrong doing (e.g. incompetent/bullying leadership, horrible students/unreasonable parents, etc.) but possibly because of some wrong doing on their part (e.g. child safety issues, incompetence, bad attitude, etc.).
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secondplace
- Posts: 191
- Joined: Thu Apr 14, 2016 12:40 pm
Re: Breaking Contracts
@psyguy
Yeah, that's the key takeaway from this:
Yes, we all lie from time to time. But these lies are part of maintaining the social fabric of life - 'Yes, that dinner was delicious' to 'No, it's no problem at all, it's not out of my way' to 'think nothing of it' etc. etc.
Also, I don't doubt that people lie about bigger things including work experience and qualifications.
I am taking a position that they shouldn't. And I am comfortable with that position because I know that I don't.
Do I think less of people who lie and cheat to get ahead? Yes. I don't think they are being smart and clever, I think that they are lacking in moral character. I doubt they care about this.
We are all responsible for our own actions and have our own moral codes.
I'm talking about, as you well know, the difference between those 'white lies' that often help polite, normal society function - I fear I may have lost you at this point - and people lying to seek and gain advantage. Some people, and organisations, are happy to that. I'm not. Do I expect any rewards or awards? No, but I take comfort in doing what I believe is the right thing.
xx
Yeah, that's the key takeaway from this:
Yes, we all lie from time to time. But these lies are part of maintaining the social fabric of life - 'Yes, that dinner was delicious' to 'No, it's no problem at all, it's not out of my way' to 'think nothing of it' etc. etc.
Also, I don't doubt that people lie about bigger things including work experience and qualifications.
I am taking a position that they shouldn't. And I am comfortable with that position because I know that I don't.
Do I think less of people who lie and cheat to get ahead? Yes. I don't think they are being smart and clever, I think that they are lacking in moral character. I doubt they care about this.
We are all responsible for our own actions and have our own moral codes.
I'm talking about, as you well know, the difference between those 'white lies' that often help polite, normal society function - I fear I may have lost you at this point - and people lying to seek and gain advantage. Some people, and organisations, are happy to that. I'm not. Do I expect any rewards or awards? No, but I take comfort in doing what I believe is the right thing.
xx
Reply
@secondplace
So its okay to lie for social advantage but not professional advantage because @secondplace says so? Thats how morally compromised individuals rationalize their actions by compartmentalization. Pot meet kettle.
So its okay to lie for social advantage but not professional advantage because @secondplace says so? Thats how morally compromised individuals rationalize their actions by compartmentalization. Pot meet kettle.
Re: Breaking Contracts
Background checks are about doing the best we can to establish that our employees are safe to have around children.
A clean criminal record from one country isn’t enough for many of us because it doesn’t account for enough of our past. Take me. I’ve lived in six countries other than my passport country, with at least three years in each, and my time overseas exceeds my time in my passport country (most of which was as a minor anyway).
How do we prove? Or something in the direction of proof? A full record of everything we’ve been doing since probably university graduation, give or take. Every full time job, with dates backed up by a letter of recommendation or statement from the employer. (Many of us have a bunch of short term jobs early on, probably less related to education, generally in our passport country, so a criminal record check covers those without need for documenting each individually.) But the “real” jobs, and definitely the overseas ones, all need confirmation.
Short travel, just a few weeks, doesn’t need explanation. Presumably if you did something truly nasty on that vacation, you would have been incarcerated, so it wouldn’t have been just a few weeks. And sadly, since pg will be around to poke holes, I’ll admit that yes, one could simply have not been caught, but as with everything, we’re doing the best we can, and we refuse not to try just because we know perfection is unobtainable.
Longer stays, like residency in any country, should be documented. That’s easy enough.
Longer travels and generally bumming around are starting to pose problems for some. And that’s sad. We have genuinely good people who did these things back when nobody cared. They kept nothing to establish what they were doing, and, to be blunt, demonstrate that they were not in prison during that period. As recruiters we try to be understanding of such things, knowing that most people are perfectly legit. But if it rises above a certain level, many schools simply won’t make job offers. It’s too much of a risk. As with this year’s candidate- about two years in her thirties that she can’t legitimately account for. Working under the table while residing illegally in a tricky country. There’s no employer to verify, no police clearance available. It’s sad, but I can’t offer in that situation.
I’ve already advised a few others, and I’ll repeat here. If you’re going out to bum around for a while, spend a year touring the world with a backpack, have a great time. (I’m a little jealous.) And keep some records. Boarding passes. Photocopies of passport stamps. A blog. Enough to plausibly establish, if not downright prove, you were moving around and having fun.
A clean criminal record from one country isn’t enough for many of us because it doesn’t account for enough of our past. Take me. I’ve lived in six countries other than my passport country, with at least three years in each, and my time overseas exceeds my time in my passport country (most of which was as a minor anyway).
How do we prove? Or something in the direction of proof? A full record of everything we’ve been doing since probably university graduation, give or take. Every full time job, with dates backed up by a letter of recommendation or statement from the employer. (Many of us have a bunch of short term jobs early on, probably less related to education, generally in our passport country, so a criminal record check covers those without need for documenting each individually.) But the “real” jobs, and definitely the overseas ones, all need confirmation.
Short travel, just a few weeks, doesn’t need explanation. Presumably if you did something truly nasty on that vacation, you would have been incarcerated, so it wouldn’t have been just a few weeks. And sadly, since pg will be around to poke holes, I’ll admit that yes, one could simply have not been caught, but as with everything, we’re doing the best we can, and we refuse not to try just because we know perfection is unobtainable.
Longer stays, like residency in any country, should be documented. That’s easy enough.
Longer travels and generally bumming around are starting to pose problems for some. And that’s sad. We have genuinely good people who did these things back when nobody cared. They kept nothing to establish what they were doing, and, to be blunt, demonstrate that they were not in prison during that period. As recruiters we try to be understanding of such things, knowing that most people are perfectly legit. But if it rises above a certain level, many schools simply won’t make job offers. It’s too much of a risk. As with this year’s candidate- about two years in her thirties that she can’t legitimately account for. Working under the table while residing illegally in a tricky country. There’s no employer to verify, no police clearance available. It’s sad, but I can’t offer in that situation.
I’ve already advised a few others, and I’ll repeat here. If you’re going out to bum around for a while, spend a year touring the world with a backpack, have a great time. (I’m a little jealous.) And keep some records. Boarding passes. Photocopies of passport stamps. A blog. Enough to plausibly establish, if not downright prove, you were moving around and having fun.
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secondplace
- Posts: 191
- Joined: Thu Apr 14, 2016 12:40 pm
Re: Breaking Contracts
@secondplace
So its okay to lie for social advantage but not professional advantage because @secondplace says so? Thats how morally compromised individuals rationalize their actions by compartmentalization. Pot meet kettle.
@psyguy
Not telling Mrs. Secondplace that her new haircut isn't actually amazing is hardly social advantage. It does keep my marriage ticking over though...
Professionally I know that I don't lie, or lie on behalf of my employers, to gain positions or to attract people to our school.
Does that make me morally compromised? Well, it makes me 'normal', happily married and morally content.
And not a sociopath.
x
So its okay to lie for social advantage but not professional advantage because @secondplace says so? Thats how morally compromised individuals rationalize their actions by compartmentalization. Pot meet kettle.
@psyguy
Not telling Mrs. Secondplace that her new haircut isn't actually amazing is hardly social advantage. It does keep my marriage ticking over though...
Professionally I know that I don't lie, or lie on behalf of my employers, to gain positions or to attract people to our school.
Does that make me morally compromised? Well, it makes me 'normal', happily married and morally content.
And not a sociopath.
x
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Spawnboy99
- Posts: 138
- Joined: Sat Jun 21, 2014 9:14 pm
Re: Breaking Contracts
Even though the advice you all give services it purpose, it's truly amazing how you get off the topic that I posted. Just stick to the question which was asked.
Discussion
The @Sid comment is an absurdity, its leadership smoke and mirrors and fear mongering. Apparently leadership wants us to believe that on one side theres everyone has to have a reference on the other side some twitter and social media posts are just fine and a vacuum in between. Which speaks to nothing that the issue thus is insufficient CRBs not references, because that is the mandate of enhanced child protection measures, which safety around children a CRB addresses, and a reference answers whether youre a good employee or not in some leaders mind. This is leadership attempting to equate the two, which they arent.
Then we have arbitrary being arbitrary. A few weeks here to "longer stays" and travels just bumming around, something around residency, which again is just an arbitrary @Sid definition.
The idea there is no CRB available is utter bunk, contact the location the IT claims to have been in, do they have an arrest record for the IT. If they dont then the working illegally under the table was pretty successful, if the did something wrong, they probably had the originating charges and the illegal working charge as well, if there is no record, then they kept their nose clean.
What would a boarding pass prove other than air travel from point A too B, what would passport stamps prove other than passing through immigration. Whats a blog going to prove, nothing.
Oh and an IT could just not have gotten caught, prosecuted, convicted, and sentenced.
Then we have arbitrary being arbitrary. A few weeks here to "longer stays" and travels just bumming around, something around residency, which again is just an arbitrary @Sid definition.
The idea there is no CRB available is utter bunk, contact the location the IT claims to have been in, do they have an arrest record for the IT. If they dont then the working illegally under the table was pretty successful, if the did something wrong, they probably had the originating charges and the illegal working charge as well, if there is no record, then they kept their nose clean.
What would a boarding pass prove other than air travel from point A too B, what would passport stamps prove other than passing through immigration. Whats a blog going to prove, nothing.
Oh and an IT could just not have gotten caught, prosecuted, convicted, and sentenced.
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secondplace
- Posts: 191
- Joined: Thu Apr 14, 2016 12:40 pm
Re: Breaking Contracts
@psyguy
An IT could just not have gotten caught, prosecuted, convicted, and sentenced.
Agreed and actually, that's really what the police clearance from a country amounts to - the fact you were accrued no criminal record during the time you were in the country.
I think that the best advice to give people is to get police clearances done each time you finish working in a country, so that you can take them with you when you. More and more it's what schools are asking for, and what countries are requiring teachers to provide for visa issuance.
There's very little you can do beyond getting the police clearance, but it is imperative that you do.
I have them going back 14 years and 3 countries, but not further back than that, and hopefully that won't be an issue in the future.
I would argue though that 'gaps' on your CV timeline due to essentially illegal work aren't helpful when applying for jobs, and may actually make getting the police clearance tricky.
An IT could just not have gotten caught, prosecuted, convicted, and sentenced.
Agreed and actually, that's really what the police clearance from a country amounts to - the fact you were accrued no criminal record during the time you were in the country.
I think that the best advice to give people is to get police clearances done each time you finish working in a country, so that you can take them with you when you. More and more it's what schools are asking for, and what countries are requiring teachers to provide for visa issuance.
There's very little you can do beyond getting the police clearance, but it is imperative that you do.
I have them going back 14 years and 3 countries, but not further back than that, and hopefully that won't be an issue in the future.
I would argue though that 'gaps' on your CV timeline due to essentially illegal work aren't helpful when applying for jobs, and may actually make getting the police clearance tricky.
Reply
@secondplace
Its not imperative, but I would agree its a good idea and its not difficult or time consuming. Its also not immune to manipulation.
I would argue its not problematic at all, dont tell them you were working, but that you were traveling on a tourist via, since you likely were. If you were illegally working and your IS requires a CRB for any stay of 30 days or more. They dont care, if they provide such a service they will take your coin, and give you the document.
Its not imperative, but I would agree its a good idea and its not difficult or time consuming. Its also not immune to manipulation.
I would argue its not problematic at all, dont tell them you were working, but that you were traveling on a tourist via, since you likely were. If you were illegally working and your IS requires a CRB for any stay of 30 days or more. They dont care, if they provide such a service they will take your coin, and give you the document.
Re: Breaking Contracts
My advice is out there, and has been added to by the excellent point that we should all get a criminal record check as we finish in each country. I should have mentioned that.
I won't bother addressing PG's vague laundry list of grievances, except for 2 points: 1) it is not possible in all countries to get a criminal record check unless you had residency, so anyone just visiting or residing illegally would not be able to get it. 2) It is not the school's job to get all these checks - it is the responsibility of the individual. Indeed, it is not even possible, in many countries, for a third . (a school) to request a check. It must be done by the individual.
Anyway, people will do what they do. My advice is to keep records that confirm your employment and clean police record. Not doing so is at your own risk. PG can scream and rant all he wants, but it won't make my school offer jobs to people without clear and safe records.
I won't bother addressing PG's vague laundry list of grievances, except for 2 points: 1) it is not possible in all countries to get a criminal record check unless you had residency, so anyone just visiting or residing illegally would not be able to get it. 2) It is not the school's job to get all these checks - it is the responsibility of the individual. Indeed, it is not even possible, in many countries, for a third . (a school) to request a check. It must be done by the individual.
Anyway, people will do what they do. My advice is to keep records that confirm your employment and clean police record. Not doing so is at your own risk. PG can scream and rant all he wants, but it won't make my school offer jobs to people without clear and safe records.
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Thames Pirate
- Posts: 1150
- Joined: Fri Jul 05, 2013 8:06 am
Re: Breaking Contracts
Of course anyone can manipulate records, but most of us don't need to. If I show up to an interview with a complete resume, references from prior jobs (particularly admin), and background checks ready to go, it's much more likely the school will take me seriously. I am demonstrating my organisation and awareness of the school's needs. It is the school's job to check the references, of course. If all of my references are good and there is one missing, I would imagine a good administrator would a) ask why it was missing, and b) have some understanding of the fact that there are bad admin and that not everyone likes everyone. A stellar reference from 4/5 admin and a good one from say a HOD or parent from school 5 (and clean background checks) probably isn't a problem.