PsyGuy wrote:
> Not every IT starts out at the bottom
No, but most do.
PsyGuy wrote:
> its entirely possible to get a tier 1 appointment with no prior IE experience
But very unlikely, and more likely with 4 years of IE experience.
PsyGuy wrote:
> You ghost them, complete a contract with a positive reference, ... ,and then you put those four years previously ghosted back on your resume
At all my job applications, references from the last two schools were contacted, sometimes from the last three. So you'd have to ghost it longer than that. Also, the recruiter might reference those ghosted 4 years to that school when calling them for the reference, who might tell them they've never heard about those 4 years since you've ghosted these for them. Then you have some explaining to do (not likely but possible).
PsyGuy wrote:
> likely at a better IS than the one the IS is at
Why better? If you ghost your experience, you start from the same position as you did before you got the job at the current school, so likely a school quite similar.
PsyGuy wrote:
> we dont have all the data from the LW.
Indeed we don't.
Breaking Contracts
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Spawnboy99
- Posts: 138
- Joined: Sat Jun 21, 2014 9:14 pm
Re: Breaking Contracts
@Hellotrope/@PsyGuy.
Thanks for your insight, please note I do have my contract sitting right in front of me know. It clearly spells out the termination aspect, but as PsyGuy wrote, its the principal that I have already completed a two contract and they are asking for penalties that are wrong as they aren't honouring the terms in the first contract, I haven't cost the school anything in renewing, have had to pay myself to get new visas as our family passports got renewed so hence needed to pay from them myself. My contract does finish in December but recruitment happens at any time of the year and leaving can too as long as you give six months notice. Why should they ask me to reimburse for shipping and airfares coming into the country as I have completed the first two-year contract? Can understand they don't pay for airfares leaving and also shipping. The two months salary without pay is steap too. My Primary Head, HOS, Line leaders have already filled out confidential reference through ISS and SA, so wouldn't be asking them for reference again. Futures school will doubt contact them but at what stake do you let schools get away with this type of behaviour.
Thanks for your insight, please note I do have my contract sitting right in front of me know. It clearly spells out the termination aspect, but as PsyGuy wrote, its the principal that I have already completed a two contract and they are asking for penalties that are wrong as they aren't honouring the terms in the first contract, I haven't cost the school anything in renewing, have had to pay myself to get new visas as our family passports got renewed so hence needed to pay from them myself. My contract does finish in December but recruitment happens at any time of the year and leaving can too as long as you give six months notice. Why should they ask me to reimburse for shipping and airfares coming into the country as I have completed the first two-year contract? Can understand they don't pay for airfares leaving and also shipping. The two months salary without pay is steap too. My Primary Head, HOS, Line leaders have already filled out confidential reference through ISS and SA, so wouldn't be asking them for reference again. Futures school will doubt contact them but at what stake do you let schools get away with this type of behaviour.
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secondplace
- Posts: 191
- Joined: Thu Apr 14, 2016 12:40 pm
Re: Breaking Contracts
@psyguy
The contract is renewed, but did they renew for 1, 2, 3...years? And whatever terms and conditions are in the signed contract will apply. There is a point to argue about expenses to do with the teacher being hired for the initial contract being rendered moot after renewal.
I think this school's approach sounds overly punitive, but it may be to do with the difficulties of getting teachers in. Some countries can require up to 6 months for visa processing for new staff, so really do need to be appointing no later thanJanuary.
But, benefits like shipping on departure, medical, flights out etc. are likely to be penalised under the terms of the new contract.
If you give notice this late in the school year, assuming the school year is coming to an end, then it's not surprising that these benefits can be withdrawn.
The contract is renewed, but did they renew for 1, 2, 3...years? And whatever terms and conditions are in the signed contract will apply. There is a point to argue about expenses to do with the teacher being hired for the initial contract being rendered moot after renewal.
I think this school's approach sounds overly punitive, but it may be to do with the difficulties of getting teachers in. Some countries can require up to 6 months for visa processing for new staff, so really do need to be appointing no later thanJanuary.
But, benefits like shipping on departure, medical, flights out etc. are likely to be penalised under the terms of the new contract.
If you give notice this late in the school year, assuming the school year is coming to an end, then it's not surprising that these benefits can be withdrawn.
Re: Breaking Contracts
Re ghosting, let’s remember that recent years have seen a huge uptick in expectations re child protection, including the need for applicants to have a fully documented background. It’s a requirement in our school’s recruitment policy for me to explore thoroughly where people have been since graduating uni. I turned down an applicant this past season because she had spent time working off the books a decade ago and couldn’t prove where she had been. She reported that she had been likewise turned away from multiple schools for the same reason and was quite concerned about whether she would find any job. It’s getting tougher. Ghosting could haunt you for the rest of your career.
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chiliverde
- Posts: 101
- Joined: Tue Jan 02, 2018 8:45 am
- Location: Europe
Re: Breaking Contracts
@sid
Yes, this.
Yes, this.
Reply
@Heliotrope
But most isnt all.
Both are still in the realm of unlikely, especially when those 4 years are at a bottom third tier IS.
We disagree, your experience is not congruent with mine. Even so, eventually at some point your going to be able to add the lost experience back in, and will be immaterial compared to recent IE experience.
Because not everyone starts at the bottom. This isnt a rank hierarchy, there are other elements and factors that contribute to an appointment.
@secondplace
Possibly, my assumption is it as a one year renewal, but it could have been more. Its not just a point to argue. Does good faith negotiation mean anything or not.
Difficulties mean nothing, every IS has difficulties recruiting and its costly.
The school year ends in December, which this June (now) is the 6 month deadline to provide notice.
@Sid
No they havent, the system is still the same, some names have changed, but there is still no clearing house in global child protection. Whats further fearmongering is your inference that contract negotiation, whether a teacher is a good employee as some leader defines it has nothing to do with protecting children. Its protecting ownership.
Your ISs policy and your position is nothing more than that, no one has to prove anything to you because you say so. Its doom and gloom fear mongering.
@Spawnboy99
They arent pursuing damages they are trying to punish you. It costs something to recruit someone, but ISs have to always recruit someone, two months wages as a penalty isnt real costs, they will have to recruit someone at some point anyway. The same for the flights and other benefits you already earned in the first contract. From their POV you have one contract, that has had nothing more than the end date changed with each successive renewal. Unless thats what the IS explained and you agreed too, your entitled to the full performance of their obligations. Of course the problem with that is enforcing that.
If you want to leave provide them your notice and leave with all your benefits, because if you pull a runner your probably going to lose something even if you just pull a fade in the middle of the night after getting the most benefits you can. Your going to lose flights at the least, and probably a portion of your pension.
But most isnt all.
Both are still in the realm of unlikely, especially when those 4 years are at a bottom third tier IS.
We disagree, your experience is not congruent with mine. Even so, eventually at some point your going to be able to add the lost experience back in, and will be immaterial compared to recent IE experience.
Because not everyone starts at the bottom. This isnt a rank hierarchy, there are other elements and factors that contribute to an appointment.
@secondplace
Possibly, my assumption is it as a one year renewal, but it could have been more. Its not just a point to argue. Does good faith negotiation mean anything or not.
Difficulties mean nothing, every IS has difficulties recruiting and its costly.
The school year ends in December, which this June (now) is the 6 month deadline to provide notice.
@Sid
No they havent, the system is still the same, some names have changed, but there is still no clearing house in global child protection. Whats further fearmongering is your inference that contract negotiation, whether a teacher is a good employee as some leader defines it has nothing to do with protecting children. Its protecting ownership.
Your ISs policy and your position is nothing more than that, no one has to prove anything to you because you say so. Its doom and gloom fear mongering.
@Spawnboy99
They arent pursuing damages they are trying to punish you. It costs something to recruit someone, but ISs have to always recruit someone, two months wages as a penalty isnt real costs, they will have to recruit someone at some point anyway. The same for the flights and other benefits you already earned in the first contract. From their POV you have one contract, that has had nothing more than the end date changed with each successive renewal. Unless thats what the IS explained and you agreed too, your entitled to the full performance of their obligations. Of course the problem with that is enforcing that.
If you want to leave provide them your notice and leave with all your benefits, because if you pull a runner your probably going to lose something even if you just pull a fade in the middle of the night after getting the most benefits you can. Your going to lose flights at the least, and probably a portion of your pension.
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secondplace
- Posts: 191
- Joined: Thu Apr 14, 2016 12:40 pm
Re: Breaking Contracts
@psyguy
Difficulties mean nothing, every IS has difficulties recruiting and its costly.
The level of difficulty that a school has in recruitment will sometimes be reflected in the timelines they choose to impose and the penalties they apply for breaking contract. A school that needs a minimum 6 months to bring someone in, due to visas and red tape etc., is going to be adversely affected by a late notice departure than a school that can get someone in country and working in a month.
I'm not suggesting that the penalties in this instance are fair, just providing some extra context.
Difficulties mean nothing, every IS has difficulties recruiting and its costly.
The level of difficulty that a school has in recruitment will sometimes be reflected in the timelines they choose to impose and the penalties they apply for breaking contract. A school that needs a minimum 6 months to bring someone in, due to visas and red tape etc., is going to be adversely affected by a late notice departure than a school that can get someone in country and working in a month.
I'm not suggesting that the penalties in this instance are fair, just providing some extra context.
Reply
@secondplace
Some context then. Again, these penalties are punishment not damages. Contracts describe relationships, and injured parties are entitled to compensation for damages, they arent entitled to punish employees past or present. Operating an organization based on punishment as an outcome, instead of among other things being the type of IS that ITs want to stay at.
Again, the ISs choices are just that their choices, and arbitrary is arbitrary.
Your assumption is that ALL new hires must be recruited OSH and not LHs. Its also a moot point, if an IT leaves they leave, the penalty isnt going to reduce the time required to secure new immigration and labor permissions. Its not connected to any type of harm or damage.
Some context then. Again, these penalties are punishment not damages. Contracts describe relationships, and injured parties are entitled to compensation for damages, they arent entitled to punish employees past or present. Operating an organization based on punishment as an outcome, instead of among other things being the type of IS that ITs want to stay at.
Again, the ISs choices are just that their choices, and arbitrary is arbitrary.
Your assumption is that ALL new hires must be recruited OSH and not LHs. Its also a moot point, if an IT leaves they leave, the penalty isnt going to reduce the time required to secure new immigration and labor permissions. Its not connected to any type of harm or damage.
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Spawnboy99
- Posts: 138
- Joined: Sat Jun 21, 2014 9:14 pm
Re: Breaking Contracts
Well, will be writing up a review of this school which is based in Kuala Lumpur. After asking the question to HR, I was asked to speak to the HOS who kindly informed me that my contract is not going to be renewed, which finishes at the end of December. When asked why the response was that I'm not committed to the school and a member of staff complained to him. WOW
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secondplace
- Posts: 191
- Joined: Thu Apr 14, 2016 12:40 pm
Re: Breaking Contracts
Some context then. Again, these penalties are punishment not damages.
Agreed, in this instance it seems overly punitive. However, schools choosing to include return of costs incurred, in the instance of departure before completion of first contract, or witholding leaving benefits if leaving early seems reasonable and is common practice.
Again, the ISs choices are just that their choices, and arbitrary is arbitrary.
Yes, independent schools will make their own choices.
Your assumption is that ALL new hires must be recruited OSH and not LHs. Its also a moot point, if an IT leaves they leave, the penalty isnt going to reduce the time required to secure new immigration and labor permissions. Its not connected to any type of harm or damage.
Yes, all hires aren't from overseas but in some places there isn't a ready market of local hires to do the job. And I disagree about it being a moot point if a teacher leaves etc. The point of such contract clauses is to deter teachers from leaving.And if they don't leave they don't need to be replaced.
Agreed, in this instance it seems overly punitive. However, schools choosing to include return of costs incurred, in the instance of departure before completion of first contract, or witholding leaving benefits if leaving early seems reasonable and is common practice.
Again, the ISs choices are just that their choices, and arbitrary is arbitrary.
Yes, independent schools will make their own choices.
Your assumption is that ALL new hires must be recruited OSH and not LHs. Its also a moot point, if an IT leaves they leave, the penalty isnt going to reduce the time required to secure new immigration and labor permissions. Its not connected to any type of harm or damage.
Yes, all hires aren't from overseas but in some places there isn't a ready market of local hires to do the job. And I disagree about it being a moot point if a teacher leaves etc. The point of such contract clauses is to deter teachers from leaving.And if they don't leave they don't need to be replaced.
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Heliotrope
- Posts: 1167
- Joined: Sun May 13, 2018 1:48 am
Re: Reply
@PsyGuy
Most isn't all, but it's still most, so a lot more ITs start there.
Having the 4 years of experience of your CV significantly increases your chances to get hired by a better school than without that experience, all other things being the same.
It isn't until later in your career that the number of years under your belt begins to become less important to schools, after you've reached 8 or 10 years or so, but a the start, those 4 years are very important. The very rare cases of someone getting hired by a tier 1 straight out of uni doesn't change that.
Yes, at some point you can add it back in, but that will be at least three schools later (schools will likely check your last two schools), by which time those 4 years are less important to get hired anyway. And at those two schools after the one you've ghosted, you will have been lower on the salary scale for all those years, and at some schools that could be $1500+ per year (although $1000 is more likely).
Yes, you can still get hired if you ghost it, but saying that having those 4 years on your CV will not increase your chances of getting hired by a better school is nonsense.
Most isn't all, but it's still most, so a lot more ITs start there.
Having the 4 years of experience of your CV significantly increases your chances to get hired by a better school than without that experience, all other things being the same.
It isn't until later in your career that the number of years under your belt begins to become less important to schools, after you've reached 8 or 10 years or so, but a the start, those 4 years are very important. The very rare cases of someone getting hired by a tier 1 straight out of uni doesn't change that.
Yes, at some point you can add it back in, but that will be at least three schools later (schools will likely check your last two schools), by which time those 4 years are less important to get hired anyway. And at those two schools after the one you've ghosted, you will have been lower on the salary scale for all those years, and at some schools that could be $1500+ per year (although $1000 is more likely).
Yes, you can still get hired if you ghost it, but saying that having those 4 years on your CV will not increase your chances of getting hired by a better school is nonsense.
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secondplace
- Posts: 191
- Joined: Thu Apr 14, 2016 12:40 pm
Re: Breaking Contracts
Ghosting...
I think that schools get a sense of when something doesn't quite add up on a CV and then will dig around more thoroughly and that can often lead to the uncovering of things people have tried to hide.
Also, basic honesty...no?
I think that schools get a sense of when something doesn't quite add up on a CV and then will dig around more thoroughly and that can often lead to the uncovering of things people have tried to hide.
Also, basic honesty...no?
Reply
@secondplace
Yes, agreed, but thats not whats happening here. We have an IT that completed their obligations of the initial contract and the IS is obligated to fully perform their obligations including any and all leaving benefits.
An ISs choices are just that, their choices, they arent an agreement, the IT is under no obligation to comply or concur with the ISs choices of X, Y, or Z.
So lack of a hiring pool permits an IS to punish an IT for something thats also out of their control. Th IS has a problem, so that entitles them to make it the ITs problem?
We disagree the point of these contract clauses isnt to deter people from leaving, its to recover damages as a result of the IT leaving.
Whats their to dig into, ISs, leadership, recruiters only know what you tell them.
@Heliotrope
So we both understand the difference between most and all?
No it doesnt, it increases your marketability but not significantly. Its not a trivial increase either, but its not unrecoverable, especially given the tier of the IS. This isnt the case of an IT going straight to tier 1, these 4 years at this third tier IS arent going to make that happen either.
Its not 8-10 years, its more like 2-4 years. No, it isnt its one IS later you can add them add back in, maybe two at the most. ISs arent likely to check beyond the last and most recent IS.
The loss in salary is minimal as its only a couple years.
Claiming those four years are going to break an IT is nonsense.
Yes, agreed, but thats not whats happening here. We have an IT that completed their obligations of the initial contract and the IS is obligated to fully perform their obligations including any and all leaving benefits.
An ISs choices are just that, their choices, they arent an agreement, the IT is under no obligation to comply or concur with the ISs choices of X, Y, or Z.
So lack of a hiring pool permits an IS to punish an IT for something thats also out of their control. Th IS has a problem, so that entitles them to make it the ITs problem?
We disagree the point of these contract clauses isnt to deter people from leaving, its to recover damages as a result of the IT leaving.
Whats their to dig into, ISs, leadership, recruiters only know what you tell them.
@Heliotrope
So we both understand the difference between most and all?
No it doesnt, it increases your marketability but not significantly. Its not a trivial increase either, but its not unrecoverable, especially given the tier of the IS. This isnt the case of an IT going straight to tier 1, these 4 years at this third tier IS arent going to make that happen either.
Its not 8-10 years, its more like 2-4 years. No, it isnt its one IS later you can add them add back in, maybe two at the most. ISs arent likely to check beyond the last and most recent IS.
The loss in salary is minimal as its only a couple years.
Claiming those four years are going to break an IT is nonsense.
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secondplace
- Posts: 191
- Joined: Thu Apr 14, 2016 12:40 pm
Re: Breaking Contracts
We disagree the point of these contract clauses isnt to deter people from leaving, its to recover damages as a result of the IT leaving.
Actually, I think it is both. But again, in this instance it seems entirely punitive. I think that more reasonable clauses aim to both recover costs and also serve as a deterrent. The application of them also serves as a warning to others. Now, a different discussion is one about what it says about a school that they feel the need to have these clauses.
Whats their to dig into, ISs, leadership, recruiters only know what you tell them.
Basic chronology of events might expose any nefarious acts such as ghosting.
Actually, I think it is both. But again, in this instance it seems entirely punitive. I think that more reasonable clauses aim to both recover costs and also serve as a deterrent. The application of them also serves as a warning to others. Now, a different discussion is one about what it says about a school that they feel the need to have these clauses.
Whats their to dig into, ISs, leadership, recruiters only know what you tell them.
Basic chronology of events might expose any nefarious acts such as ghosting.
Reply
@secondplace
A warning to others, so now its punishment and the threat of punishment, why not just put the IT paddle or cat O nine tails in the IT work. Sounds like the exact type of IS you want to get all the coin you can and pull a runner, if an ISs contracts have to be that draconian to staff their classrooms.
Only if you dont craft the ghosting to not look nefarious.
A warning to others, so now its punishment and the threat of punishment, why not just put the IT paddle or cat O nine tails in the IT work. Sounds like the exact type of IS you want to get all the coin you can and pull a runner, if an ISs contracts have to be that draconian to staff their classrooms.
Only if you dont craft the ghosting to not look nefarious.