PsyGuy wrote:
> Good to hear you agree they have different definitions, because they arent
> the same thing.
'Job' and 'occupation' do mean the same. The definition of 'occupation' even says it 'job':
'occupation: a job or profession'.
You usually turn to questioning definitions when you see no other way to further your argument.
Not sure why, as the only 'disagreement' we had is that I like my job/work/occupation/profession, and may prioritise the quality of the school over its location, where you prioritise location over anything else.
> AND Im saying the reputation matches the reality.
I've seen too many examples where a schools reputation wasn't matched by reality, and usually it wasn't until quite a few years later before the word got out to enough people and the school's reputation slowly changed to match reality.
Location, Location, Location!
Re: Location, Location, Location!
and to think I once thought this thread would die a quick death
-
Heliotrope
- Posts: 1167
- Joined: Sun May 13, 2018 1:48 am
Re: Location, Location, Location!
mysharona wrote:
> and to think I once thought this thread would die a quick death
Haha, yeah, it actually did die, as the current back-and-forth has not much to do anymore with what the OP originally asked.
@PsyGuy has a tactic where he keeps responding, even when confronted with evidence that makes clear to anyone but himself that he's in the wrong, assuming the other person will eventually just give up, which in his mind signals 'defeat'.
I (and some others like @Thames Pirate) keep responding for longer than we perhaps should, partly because I don't want people unfamiliar with @PsyGuy to think that he really knows what he's talking about (although he does where it concerns certification issues), but to be honest, also because I'm too stubborn to let it go and take the high road.
Like in this case, where everyone but @PsyGuy will probably understand that job, work, occupation and profession are all used for the same thing, in this case for being a teacher.
Data doesn't matter to him. For example, he keeps saying rent for a 3BR in The Hague is €1,900-2,500, even after I posted this link: https://www.funda.nl/en/huur/den-haag/0-1250/3+kamers/ that shows 183 places you can rent right now for €1,250 or less. And since data doesn't matter to him (except his own sources that he always refuses to share), he needs to wear us down by replying ad infinitum, by moving the goal post, get technical about things that aren't really relevant to the issue, insult @Thames Pirate with an acronym that he often uses incorrectly, offering Diogenes' 'honest man award' to anyone who dares to say that lying to recruiters is wrong, etc.
There are way too many topics that should have been only 1 page and ended up being 5 or 6 instead because of stubbornness, ego, and the deepfelt conviction that the truth will set us all free.
Actually, the forum would be a lot more quiet, maybe a bit too quiet, if we didn't have these back-and-forths. However, I do apologise to any topic starters that feel offended, although I can't promise I won't respond the next time around.
> and to think I once thought this thread would die a quick death
Haha, yeah, it actually did die, as the current back-and-forth has not much to do anymore with what the OP originally asked.
@PsyGuy has a tactic where he keeps responding, even when confronted with evidence that makes clear to anyone but himself that he's in the wrong, assuming the other person will eventually just give up, which in his mind signals 'defeat'.
I (and some others like @Thames Pirate) keep responding for longer than we perhaps should, partly because I don't want people unfamiliar with @PsyGuy to think that he really knows what he's talking about (although he does where it concerns certification issues), but to be honest, also because I'm too stubborn to let it go and take the high road.
Like in this case, where everyone but @PsyGuy will probably understand that job, work, occupation and profession are all used for the same thing, in this case for being a teacher.
Data doesn't matter to him. For example, he keeps saying rent for a 3BR in The Hague is €1,900-2,500, even after I posted this link: https://www.funda.nl/en/huur/den-haag/0-1250/3+kamers/ that shows 183 places you can rent right now for €1,250 or less. And since data doesn't matter to him (except his own sources that he always refuses to share), he needs to wear us down by replying ad infinitum, by moving the goal post, get technical about things that aren't really relevant to the issue, insult @Thames Pirate with an acronym that he often uses incorrectly, offering Diogenes' 'honest man award' to anyone who dares to say that lying to recruiters is wrong, etc.
There are way too many topics that should have been only 1 page and ended up being 5 or 6 instead because of stubbornness, ego, and the deepfelt conviction that the truth will set us all free.
Actually, the forum would be a lot more quiet, maybe a bit too quiet, if we didn't have these back-and-forths. However, I do apologise to any topic starters that feel offended, although I can't promise I won't respond the next time around.
Reply
@Heliotrope
No they dont. Similar is not identical.
No, I resort to definitions when they matter.
No, there is no such scenario where an IS functions under a reputation it doesnt have. Things are what they are. Second tier ISs are of second tier quality, first tier ISs are of first tier quality. Thats how classifications work. Thee is no such thing where a yellow crayon is a blue crayon, because the yellow crayon is functioning in terms and specifics as the color blue. Yellow is yellow, blue is blue.
Your use of "job, work, occupation and profession" as the same thing is your position, that doesnt make it accurate.
because its €1900
Only data matters.
@mysharona
I know right, where not even arguing perception anymore its now just preference. A number of contributors are under the assumption that their claims of being right are self authenticating. Its just TPF.
No they dont. Similar is not identical.
No, I resort to definitions when they matter.
No, there is no such scenario where an IS functions under a reputation it doesnt have. Things are what they are. Second tier ISs are of second tier quality, first tier ISs are of first tier quality. Thats how classifications work. Thee is no such thing where a yellow crayon is a blue crayon, because the yellow crayon is functioning in terms and specifics as the color blue. Yellow is yellow, blue is blue.
Your use of "job, work, occupation and profession" as the same thing is your position, that doesnt make it accurate.
because its €1900
Only data matters.
@mysharona
I know right, where not even arguing perception anymore its now just preference. A number of contributors are under the assumption that their claims of being right are self authenticating. Its just TPF.
-
Heliotrope
- Posts: 1167
- Joined: Sun May 13, 2018 1:48 am
Re: Reply
> No they dont. Similar is not identical.
If you read my last reply again, you'll see that I'm not saying they're identical, I said they're all used for the same thing: being a teacher:
"... job, work, occupation and profession are all used for the same thing, in this case for being a teacher."
> No, I resort to definitions when they matter.
Often you use it to shift the focus from points put forward by others that you know disprove your position.
It's a well-known debating tactic: deflect the other person from their main point.
> No, there is no such scenario where an IS functions under a reputation it
> doesnt have. Things are what they are.
Harvey Weinstein used to have a good reputation, until the truth finally came out.
People had no reservations leaving their kids to spend the night at Neverland, because of Micheal Jackson's reputation. Now we know better. Things are what they are, but things are not always as the seem. Reputations are not always deserved, or are no longer deserved.
> Second tier ISs are of second tier
> quality, first tier ISs are of first tier quality. Thats how
> classifications work.
You still not reading correctly: it's about schools that a large group of people think are tier 1, but have actually slipped and are now tier 2. And vice versa. People in the know will assign the proper tier, but it takes a while before word gets around (through ISR reviews or otherwise), and until then the school still profits from its reputation based on former greatness.
I assume you know some schools go from tier 1 to tier 2? And you must realise it take a while before everyone knows that they've gone down a tier. That's all I'm saying: there's a period of time where people might assign the wrong tier to a school based on dated information.
> because its €1900
The link shows you're wrong.
> Only data matters.
Not to you, or you wouldn't say €1900.
If you read my last reply again, you'll see that I'm not saying they're identical, I said they're all used for the same thing: being a teacher:
"... job, work, occupation and profession are all used for the same thing, in this case for being a teacher."
> No, I resort to definitions when they matter.
Often you use it to shift the focus from points put forward by others that you know disprove your position.
It's a well-known debating tactic: deflect the other person from their main point.
> No, there is no such scenario where an IS functions under a reputation it
> doesnt have. Things are what they are.
Harvey Weinstein used to have a good reputation, until the truth finally came out.
People had no reservations leaving their kids to spend the night at Neverland, because of Micheal Jackson's reputation. Now we know better. Things are what they are, but things are not always as the seem. Reputations are not always deserved, or are no longer deserved.
> Second tier ISs are of second tier
> quality, first tier ISs are of first tier quality. Thats how
> classifications work.
You still not reading correctly: it's about schools that a large group of people think are tier 1, but have actually slipped and are now tier 2. And vice versa. People in the know will assign the proper tier, but it takes a while before word gets around (through ISR reviews or otherwise), and until then the school still profits from its reputation based on former greatness.
I assume you know some schools go from tier 1 to tier 2? And you must realise it take a while before everyone knows that they've gone down a tier. That's all I'm saying: there's a period of time where people might assign the wrong tier to a school based on dated information.
> because its €1900
The link shows you're wrong.
> Only data matters.
Not to you, or you wouldn't say €1900.
Reply
@Heliotrope
Yes you are, claiming they are all used for the same thing is claiming their identical.
No, I resort to definitions when they matter.
Michael Jackson and Harvey Weinstein arent ISs. IS tier is what it is. Youre not understanding, there are no tier 1 ISs that have slipped to tier 2 and are still considered tier 21. There are tier 1 ISs that have reputations of tier 1 ISs because they ARE tier 1 ISs. There is NO scenario that exists of a tier 1 IS functioning as a tier 2 IS. ALL the tier 1 ISs are earned tier 1 ISs and ALL the tier 2 ISs are earned tier 2 ISs.
The error of "people" is not an error of fact, ALL ISs with tier one reputations are tier 1 ISs, ALL ISs with tier 2 reputations are tier 2 ISs.
Its €1900, because only data matters.
Yes you are, claiming they are all used for the same thing is claiming their identical.
No, I resort to definitions when they matter.
Michael Jackson and Harvey Weinstein arent ISs. IS tier is what it is. Youre not understanding, there are no tier 1 ISs that have slipped to tier 2 and are still considered tier 21. There are tier 1 ISs that have reputations of tier 1 ISs because they ARE tier 1 ISs. There is NO scenario that exists of a tier 1 IS functioning as a tier 2 IS. ALL the tier 1 ISs are earned tier 1 ISs and ALL the tier 2 ISs are earned tier 2 ISs.
The error of "people" is not an error of fact, ALL ISs with tier one reputations are tier 1 ISs, ALL ISs with tier 2 reputations are tier 2 ISs.
Its €1900, because only data matters.
-
Heliotrope
- Posts: 1167
- Joined: Sun May 13, 2018 1:48 am
Re: Reply
> Michael Jackson and Harvey Weinstein arent ISs.
Glad they're not. Can you imagine?
I mentioned them because (for example) Weinstein was an asshole even when the public didn't know about it, until word got out. So his reputation was solid, but didn't reflect reality. Until people started talking.
> Youre not understanding, there are no tier 1 ISs that have slipped to tier
> 2 and are still considered tier 21. There are tier 1 ISs that have
> reputations of tier 1 ISs because they ARE tier 1 ISs. There is NO scenario
> that exists of a tier 1 IS functioning as a tier 2 IS. ALL the tier 1 ISs
> are earned tier 1 ISs and ALL the tier 2 ISs are earned tier 2 ISs.
> The error of "people" is not an error of fact, ALL ISs with tier
> one reputations are tier 1 ISs, ALL ISs with tier 2 reputations are tier 2
> ISs.
Yes, there are schools that once were tier 1, and are now tier 2 because they slipped on a few of the criteria that are generally used to assign tiers: pay, academic integrity, resources, leadership, student population, etc.
Tier 1 isn't a permanent status.
But ITs worldwide don't immediately drop all schools to the correct tier overnight when that happens, simply because they don't know that a school has been slipping, so they still think it's tier 1, also when it isn't anymore ad when they wouldn't call it tier 1 if only they had access to the most recent information that they use to assign tiers. So because of this, the school's reputation might stay intact for a few more years before it starts to crumble and word spreads that it's in fact tier 2 nowadays.
> Its €1900, because only data matters.
Well, the data shows otherwise.
Glad they're not. Can you imagine?
I mentioned them because (for example) Weinstein was an asshole even when the public didn't know about it, until word got out. So his reputation was solid, but didn't reflect reality. Until people started talking.
> Youre not understanding, there are no tier 1 ISs that have slipped to tier
> 2 and are still considered tier 21. There are tier 1 ISs that have
> reputations of tier 1 ISs because they ARE tier 1 ISs. There is NO scenario
> that exists of a tier 1 IS functioning as a tier 2 IS. ALL the tier 1 ISs
> are earned tier 1 ISs and ALL the tier 2 ISs are earned tier 2 ISs.
> The error of "people" is not an error of fact, ALL ISs with tier
> one reputations are tier 1 ISs, ALL ISs with tier 2 reputations are tier 2
> ISs.
Yes, there are schools that once were tier 1, and are now tier 2 because they slipped on a few of the criteria that are generally used to assign tiers: pay, academic integrity, resources, leadership, student population, etc.
Tier 1 isn't a permanent status.
But ITs worldwide don't immediately drop all schools to the correct tier overnight when that happens, simply because they don't know that a school has been slipping, so they still think it's tier 1, also when it isn't anymore ad when they wouldn't call it tier 1 if only they had access to the most recent information that they use to assign tiers. So because of this, the school's reputation might stay intact for a few more years before it starts to crumble and word spreads that it's in fact tier 2 nowadays.
> Its €1900, because only data matters.
Well, the data shows otherwise.
Reply
@Heliotrope
No he wasnt, he was a great stand up guy, until he wasnt.
A tier 1 IS that becomes a tier 2 IS, has the reputation of a tier 2 IS. There are no tier 2 ISs with tier 1 reputations. There is no communication delay measurable in years.
But all thats a red hearing, thats not what the original claim of @Thames Pirate is, its that there are somehow tier 1 ISs that fell to tier 2 or lower, but their reputation doesnt change because they were once tier 1. That doesnt happen, an IS with a tier 1 reputation is a tier 1 IS. Likewise there is no tier 2 IS that hasnt been recognized and is some hidden gem that is really functioning as a tier 1 IS despite having a tier 2 reputation. That dosnt happen, there is no such scenario, an IS with a tier 2 reputation is a tier 2 IS.
No, its €1900 because only data matters.
No he wasnt, he was a great stand up guy, until he wasnt.
A tier 1 IS that becomes a tier 2 IS, has the reputation of a tier 2 IS. There are no tier 2 ISs with tier 1 reputations. There is no communication delay measurable in years.
But all thats a red hearing, thats not what the original claim of @Thames Pirate is, its that there are somehow tier 1 ISs that fell to tier 2 or lower, but their reputation doesnt change because they were once tier 1. That doesnt happen, an IS with a tier 1 reputation is a tier 1 IS. Likewise there is no tier 2 IS that hasnt been recognized and is some hidden gem that is really functioning as a tier 1 IS despite having a tier 2 reputation. That dosnt happen, there is no such scenario, an IS with a tier 2 reputation is a tier 2 IS.
No, its €1900 because only data matters.
-
Heliotrope
- Posts: 1167
- Joined: Sun May 13, 2018 1:48 am
Re: Reply
PsyGuy wrote:
> @Heliotrope
>
> No he wasnt, he was a great stand up guy, until he wasnt.
I'm not saying he wasn't when he was.
I'm saying for years when he wasn't, his reputation didn't reflect that.
Until the word got out.
> A tier 1 IS that becomes a tier 2 IS, has the reputation of a tier 2 IS.
> There are no tier 2 ISs with tier 1 reputations. There is no communication
> delay measurable in years.
> But all thats a red hearing, thats not what the original claim of @Thames
> Pirate is, its that there are somehow tier 1 ISs that fell to tier 2 or
> lower, but their reputation doesnt change because they were once tier 1.
> That doesnt happen, an IS with a tier 1 reputation is a tier 1 IS. Likewise
> there is no tier 2 IS that hasnt been recognized and is some hidden gem
> that is really functioning as a tier 1 IS despite having a tier 2
> reputation. That dosnt happen, there is no such scenario, an IS with a tier
> 2 reputation is a tier 2 IS.
Yes, there are schools that have the reputation of being tier 1, but are tier 2 when you forget about reputation and look at the parameters that most ITS use to define what a tier 1 or 2 is, and talk to people that work there or have worked there recently.
> No, its €1900 because only data matters.
Are you saying you can't rent 50+ 3BRs for €1250 in The Hague? Because that is what the data shows.
> @Heliotrope
>
> No he wasnt, he was a great stand up guy, until he wasnt.
I'm not saying he wasn't when he was.
I'm saying for years when he wasn't, his reputation didn't reflect that.
Until the word got out.
> A tier 1 IS that becomes a tier 2 IS, has the reputation of a tier 2 IS.
> There are no tier 2 ISs with tier 1 reputations. There is no communication
> delay measurable in years.
> But all thats a red hearing, thats not what the original claim of @Thames
> Pirate is, its that there are somehow tier 1 ISs that fell to tier 2 or
> lower, but their reputation doesnt change because they were once tier 1.
> That doesnt happen, an IS with a tier 1 reputation is a tier 1 IS. Likewise
> there is no tier 2 IS that hasnt been recognized and is some hidden gem
> that is really functioning as a tier 1 IS despite having a tier 2
> reputation. That dosnt happen, there is no such scenario, an IS with a tier
> 2 reputation is a tier 2 IS.
Yes, there are schools that have the reputation of being tier 1, but are tier 2 when you forget about reputation and look at the parameters that most ITS use to define what a tier 1 or 2 is, and talk to people that work there or have worked there recently.
> No, its €1900 because only data matters.
Are you saying you can't rent 50+ 3BRs for €1250 in The Hague? Because that is what the data shows.
Reply
@Heliotrope
Im saying your claim that he wasnt a stand up guy, but had the reputation that he was, he WAS actually a stand up guy. He is still a stand up guy, I am not aware hes been convicted of anything and I believe his pending charges are in the US where the system of jurisprudence is innocent until proven guilty or something like that. Until then its just a bunch of gossip and slander. Unless thats your definition of data?
No, there arent ISs with a reputation of tier 1 but are tier 2.
No, because its €1900
Im saying your claim that he wasnt a stand up guy, but had the reputation that he was, he WAS actually a stand up guy. He is still a stand up guy, I am not aware hes been convicted of anything and I believe his pending charges are in the US where the system of jurisprudence is innocent until proven guilty or something like that. Until then its just a bunch of gossip and slander. Unless thats your definition of data?
No, there arent ISs with a reputation of tier 1 but are tier 2.
No, because its €1900
-
Heliotrope
- Posts: 1167
- Joined: Sun May 13, 2018 1:48 am
Re: Reply
Would you like to defend Bernie Madoff then?
Who had a solid reputation even when he was actively conning people, until the truth came out.
Or do think there are no cases where the reputation doesn't match reality?
Jimmy Saville?
Who had a solid reputation even when he was actively conning people, until the truth came out.
Or do think there are no cases where the reputation doesn't match reality?
Jimmy Saville?
Re: Location, Location, Location!
PG doesn’t share typical views on behavior and social norms. Not for himself and not for others. He is very demeaning towards anyone in leadership, but other than that, he considers any sort of bad behavior just fine: it’s ok to lie, cheat, steal and (we now learn for the first time) sexually harass.
Nor does he believe anyone has committed a crime or done a bad thing unless they have been convicted. Except school leaders. We are inherently evil and are presumed to have committed every possible sin.
Nor does he believe anyone has committed a crime or done a bad thing unless they have been convicted. Except school leaders. We are inherently evil and are presumed to have committed every possible sin.
-
Thames Pirate
- Posts: 1150
- Joined: Fri Jul 05, 2013 8:06 am
Re: Location, Location, Location!
sid wrote:
> PG doesn’t share typical views on behavior and social norms. Not for
> himself and not for others. He is very demeaning towards anyone in
> leadership, but other than that, he considers any sort of bad behavior just
> fine: it’s ok to lie, cheat, steal and (we now learn for the first time)
> sexually harass.
> Nor does he believe anyone has committed a crime or done a bad thing unless
> they have been convicted. Except school leaders. We are inherently evil and
> are presumed to have committed every possible sin.
And me. I am not evil, just apparently to be disagreed with and disparaged at every turn, regardless of what I am saying. But I now have my own forum abbreviation, so there's that.
But regular readers know he is not to be trusted and is basically a troll who knows how to get certifications.
> PG doesn’t share typical views on behavior and social norms. Not for
> himself and not for others. He is very demeaning towards anyone in
> leadership, but other than that, he considers any sort of bad behavior just
> fine: it’s ok to lie, cheat, steal and (we now learn for the first time)
> sexually harass.
> Nor does he believe anyone has committed a crime or done a bad thing unless
> they have been convicted. Except school leaders. We are inherently evil and
> are presumed to have committed every possible sin.
And me. I am not evil, just apparently to be disagreed with and disparaged at every turn, regardless of what I am saying. But I now have my own forum abbreviation, so there's that.
But regular readers know he is not to be trusted and is basically a troll who knows how to get certifications.
Reply
@Heliotrope
I would not, Bernie was convicted, Harvey has not.
This isnt a case of an IS conning ITs, is that what youre claiming that these first tier ISs with second tier reputations are conning ITs into thinking their reputation is unearned? There isnt. Second tier ISs have second tier reputations, first tier ISs have first tier reputations. What @Thames Pirate is trying to persuade is that there are first tier ISs that she doesnt like for whatever reason that arent as good as she thinks they should be, which isnt true. That scenario just doesnt happen for years on end, even if it did happen.
@sid
Thats how the whole innocent until proven guilty thing works.
I would not, Bernie was convicted, Harvey has not.
This isnt a case of an IS conning ITs, is that what youre claiming that these first tier ISs with second tier reputations are conning ITs into thinking their reputation is unearned? There isnt. Second tier ISs have second tier reputations, first tier ISs have first tier reputations. What @Thames Pirate is trying to persuade is that there are first tier ISs that she doesnt like for whatever reason that arent as good as she thinks they should be, which isnt true. That scenario just doesnt happen for years on end, even if it did happen.
@sid
Thats how the whole innocent until proven guilty thing works.
Re: Location, Location, Location!
No, actually not.