Feedback on a couple Chinese schools

[IntHopeful]

(copied from members forum editing out school names/identifying info)

Hello,

I am looking at offers from the following schools. I am more concerned about which position will open more future doors, than I am which one gives a 10% (or whatever) better standard of living at the moment. Both provide health insurance, I believe only the second provides free lunch. Both provide a legal work visa, it's not clear to me if "cover" means assist with or actually pay for the costs (I will be following up on this).

1. School is located in Dongguan, has a mutual-diploma agreement program with a US high school.

Salary: 17,000 RMB/month, 10,000 bonus for completion of contract. 3 weeks paid leave during winter break, 2 weeks paid leave during summer.

Teachers requires to work 40 hours/week. Up to 25 teaching hours, the rest are office hours. No days longer than 8 hours unless teacher and school agree.

Grade level/subject: High school students, unknown (??). They told me they are thinking about adding a math program this year, but asked if I would be open to other subjects (I said I would to ones like Am. Govt. and History, no to ones like British Lit. that I have no business teaching).

Housing: Provided by the school. I've seen photos, it's nothing lavish but seems fine, comes with Western-style amenities. 15 mins. walk or 5 min. cab-ride from the school. Housing is not on school grounds, but is rented out by the school so most of the western teachers are in the same area. There is wording in the contract saying that any family or guests at the apartment need to be approved by the school administrator, which seems odd to me.

Flight: only covered up to $500 USD, reimbursed in first paycheck (this won't cover the full flight).

Curriculum: They tell me Common Core, though school is listed on IB website's list of schools. I guess they only use IB for certain grades?

Misc: Regular teleconferencing with teachers from the US school with which the dual-diploma agreement exists.

2. Bilingual school in Qingdao.

Salary: 18,000 RMB/m

Schedule is 7:50am - 4:30pm, one hour lunch included. No more than 22 teaching periods, 40 mins per period. Teachers can pick two days to leave at 3:30. For winter/summer breaks, teachers receive half of their salary.

Grade level, subject: Primary, Math

Housing: 3,000 RMB/m stipend pre-tax

Flight: Covered up to 9,000 RMB, reimbursed after completion of 1-year contract.

Curriculum: A-levels and IG.

--

My thoughts...

Pros for first school:

-Teaching high school aged students (my certification is MS Math, but would like to get my HS Math cert eventually).

-Cheaper cost of living based on my research

-Seems like there may be more support for new teachers (although it seems like there could be a lot of variance regarding the actual effect)

Pros for second school:

-Actually reimburses an amount that will cover the entire cost of the flight (but unlike the former, I have to wait until the end of contract for it)

-Friendlier schedule

-Qingdao seems like a nicer city

-Better, or at least more marketable curriculum

-I will be teaching the subject I'm certified to teach

Thoughts?

[PsyGuy]

Neither they are both turds. Your asking us to choose which pile of poo is better, poo is poo.

Your benefits lists dont really address your issue of which one is better for your future marketability (flight differentials have nothing to do with your marketability).
In this scenario IS 1 is the better choice. IS 2 is IGCSE/A* but your a primary maths IT so you dont get to benefit from that experience, whereas IS 1 is an IB IS, they likely only have IB for DIP and your grade levels would be lower secondary or non-SLL, you are still closer to saying you have IB experience from IS 1 than you are having BS NC experience from IS 2. Even without the IB, IS one is still closer to SLL which is important for a secondary IT. Otherwise non of the other factors/descriptors effect future marketability.

IS 2 has a higher probability of being a train wreck than IS 1, though I wouldnt get on board either of them.

[Helen Back]

I would keep looking for option 3.

[IntHopeful]

PsyGuy wrote:

> Your benefits lists dont really address your issue of which one is better
> for your future marketability (flight differentials have nothing to do with
> your marketability).

This is a fair point, maybe I should should backtrack/re-phrase my objective. Future marketability is not my only priority, but it's my biggest priority. If one place gives me significantly better value going forward, I'm willing to sacrifice significant quality of life.

If however the future utility is essentially the same and one is only better in this regard by some technicality that is very unlikely to make a real difference (I'm not saying this is the case here, I don't know), then quality of life/budget stuff matters.

[IntHopeful]

PsyGuy wrote:
> Neither they are both turds. Your asking us to choose which pile of poo is
> better, poo is poo.

Helen Back wrote:
> I would keep looking for option 3.

Do you think I should keep looking for option 3 given:

a) I have no experience other than 3 months field experience
b) My certification is in Middle School Math (with non-related degree)
c) I need a job for this school year and I strongly prefer finding an IE spot over DE

?

The thing is I didn't know how much difficulty I would have finding a job, so with the recruiting agency I signed up with I listed my min. acceptable salary as $2500/mo. Maybe I should have gone higher? (agency is only for China)

[IntHopeful]

I just got a request to interview for a high school math position in Hangzhou (grade 12 actually)...The curriculum looks like something from Australia, I looked at a PDF to review some material they asked me to look at to verify it's something I can teach. It's stats, which is my strongest area and I think I would be comfortable teaching it.

Salary is a little gross at 12-20k/m range (I assume I'm at the bottom without experience), but I think this look best going forward no? They contacted me today and already want to interview tomorrow...

[eion_padraig]

It doesn't hurt to pursue it and see what happens. Teaching grade 12 students would be the right age group for what you want to do. The question really becomes is what level of math can you teach well. If other high school math courses opened up the following year teaching algebra or calculus, would you be able to step in. If you're only teaching statistics that is less useful transferring into other system's curriculum. AP statistics is at best an elective class in US style curriculum. I haven't seen a clear breakdown of what math is taught in the new IB curriculum. Statistics will be a part of all of them, but I suspect it will be a bigger part in the IB Math Applications curriculum. Even then, I don't know how big.

I read back through some of your previous posts. You're right that you need some teaching experience and your options will be limited to start. You need 2 - 3 years of teaching experience before you can get to the next rung on the ladder. For what it's worth, I would the cities in order of where I'd want to live like this Hangzhou > Qingdao > Dongguan for day-to-day quality. Hangzhou and Qingdao have more outdoors stuff. Hangzhou and Dongguan have better access to bigger, more international cities (Shanghai for Hangzhou, Shenzhen/Hong Kong for Dongguan) for weekend trips.

Wherever you go, do get involved in some after school activities (coaching, running math clubs, etc) so you can be more competitive for your next job.

Good luck.

Eion

[wrldtrvlr123]

It's true that the salaries are all pretty low, especially if that is gross. I would give a hard pass on the most recent offer if they are putting you near the bottom of that range.

As I say, those salaries are very low for a certified/experienced teacher, but as you point out, you are not both of those things. You would likely be able to field more offers before the start of the year, but many/most of them are likely to be from the same types of schools. There is the off chance that a better school could need someone very late in the year and take a chance on you, but you can't really predict or count on those opportunities.

At the end of the day, you need a job and working at any of these schools for two years would likely lead to a somewhat better chance at better schools in your next recruitment adventure. If you are going to take one of these, do your best to get the best possible deal and then put your head down and pay your dues.

You could probably stall a little while and these jobs would still likely be there (or very similar offers). Have you checked out Math positions on TES lately? There are quite a few listed in various parts of the world (e.g. China, ME, Mexico, Europe, etc.).

[PsyGuy]

@IntHopeful

All of the offers you have gotten are ESOL coin, the BOTTOM of IE in China is RMB¥20K/mth, full flight, housing and medical, thats the bottom. Your offers are below the bottom and not even competitively complete packages.
I get you think youre not going to get a job, so take the best of the three that you like and put it in your back pocket and keep looking, this way you have a safety appointment if nothing better comes up, then when August comes around make your choice of actual options in front of you. Your recruiter isnt a premium agency so it doesnt matter what they think.

If the year 12 position is SLL than thats more valuable than the others, even if it is stats though thats not calculus which is usually the gold standard for a SLL maths IT. You would need the max (RMB¥20k/mth housing, full flight and medical). It would be the best then going forward but you should still keep looking, youre still at the bottom, and you have a credential in maths.

Have you considered now or in the near future obtaining a full secondary (up to year 12) credential?

[expatscot]

They all look a bit rubbish, TBH. (And as a Maths teacher, why would American Govt & History be any easier for you to teach than British Literature? That's like saying to me as a History teacher, why not teach elementary Maths, because, after all, you can count....)

These look like TEFL schools masquerading as full international schools. Looking at the salaries, they'll also be lower than you expect - is that monthly amount your annual salary divided by 12, or is that the amount you get when you work for a full month with deductions in the summer and winter, for example?)

In the case of the second school, I don't know what the Qingdao market is like, but I suspect that for housing you will either end up sharing or topping up the 3000RMB from your own salary.

If you are not able to look for an option 3, then I would consider option 1 but try to push them a bit on the air fares and also the content you would be teaching. IB is great, but you simply won't be able to teach IB History or Global Politics if that's not your qualification, in the same way as you'd never let me near maths.

[PsyGuy]

@IntHopeful

This is an important issue that @expatscot brought up and that is the annual terms of the contract. Contracts generally come in three lengths 9 mts, 10 mths, and 12 mts. In a 9 month contract you are not paid for summer or winter breaks and are not paid for holidays ('day' salary, the IS calculates the actual work days in the month and pays you the daily rate for each of those days). A 10 mth contract means you are not paid for summer and winter breaks but are for holidays ('monthly' salary based on the first to last day of the month for months that are work periods according to the IS calendar ). A 12 mth contract means you are paid for all 12 months of the year.
ISs can be deceptive with this, they can say a 10 month contract excluding holidays means its really a 9 month contract. They can offer a 10 month contract but annualize it over 12 months, meaning they just spread out the 10 month salary over 12 months, resulting in less pay each month. ISs of this type also like to 'hold backs', meaning they withhold a certain portion of your salary until the end of the year to keep you from pulling a runner, or they withhold a portion of your salary between AYs to ensure you come back next year.

You also need to ask about taxes, and if this salary is gross or net, and if its gross what the taxes will be.

You can find housing in Qingdao for RMB¥3000/mth it will likely be a 1K though, meaning you get a bedroom a kitchen and a bathroom, plastic furnishings, a mattress on a box for a bed and a shower.

@expatscot

If you can count you could teach year 1 primary maths, if you can do standard operations (addition, subtraction, multiplication and division) you can teach years 2-3 primary maths, add fractions and you can teach year 4 maths. I would hopefully assume that having a secondary education completion certificate/diploma that you know those things.

[Heliotrope]

Agree with @eion_padraig that the cities should be ranked Hangzhou > Qingdao > Dongguan. Hangzhou is so much nicer than Dongguan.
They all offer a very low salary, so go with the one that seems most professional, and is least likely to screw you over.
Ask if you can talk to other ITs at the school before deciding.
Lots of teachers start at a crappy school, but some turds smell a lot more foul than others.

[GrumblesMcGee]

IntHopeful wrote:
> (copied from members forum editing out school names/identifying info)

This whole dance about censoring the names of schools here is just laughable. I get that the site wants to earn some coin, and I'd gladly contribute via Patreon if I thought it was worthwhile, but the fig leaf is really showing. If the site truly is committed to improving the IS community and making sure prospective teachers don't get blindsided by bad schools/directors, then the information needs to there, not hidden behind a paywall.

> Hello,
>
> I am looking at offers from the following schools. I am more concerned
> about which position will open more future doors, than I am which one gives
> a 10% (or whatever) better standard of living at the moment. Both provide
> health insurance, I believe only the second provides free lunch. Both
> provide a legal work visa, it's not clear to me if "cover" means
> assist with or actually pay for the costs (I will be following up on this).
>...
>
> Thoughts?

Congratulations on the offers!

As usual, PsyGuy takes your joy and pulls a Debbie Downer, so you can ignore his overall assessment (although some of his internal - is still worth considering). He (and others) are right that these are fairly low-paying, and that you might want to consider holding out. But it's all about your risk tolerance. If you think these are good schools that can open doors, then turning them down might be difficult. I think you're getting these lower offers in part because you opened that door yourself (see #2 below), and it might be a challenge to dig out from that.

Also, bear in mind that you're probably a really tough sell for most established ISs due to your lack of experience. This is a point some of the criticisms of the offer seem to gloss over. You'll see this in job postings and from major agencies: schools strongly prefer teachers with 2+ years experience. On another level, you'll see schools expressly indicating that they want x# years INTERNATIONAL experience. Plus your non-related degree (and presumably just a bachelor's?) are making you less marketable (and keeping you at the bottom of the scale).

A few thoughts:

1. It's impossible to get at the root of your question ("which position will open more future doors") with school names (and therefore reputations) withheld. If you get diverse enough feedback in the Executive Washroom (members area), trust it.

2. I'm struck by something you wrote in a response: "I didn't know how much difficulty I would have finding a job, so with the recruiting agency I signed up with I listed my min. acceptable salary as $2500/mo. Maybe I should have gone higher? (agency is only for China)." I have a suspicion who the agency is, and you need to be careful. Some of these agencies are really good at going out and find you *A* job, but they're going to prey on your desperation. They're incentivized to place you at the lower-paying schools, because those jobs are harder to fill with qualified candidates. So they're going to press you on that minimum acceptable salary. You'll see higher-paying jobs listed on their databases (and maybe they actually exist), but you're going to have a hard time getting them to forward your application for those jobs if you've indicated a willingness to work for $2,500/mo.

In my experience this year, as an unusual candidate with lots of credentials but no IS experience, I dealt with one of these agencies during a "lull" in my search process. They were very good at communicating, which I appreciated, but I could feel that downward tug. I'd get, "Are you willing to take a [insert low salary] job to get your foot in the door?" I knew I was going to have a hard time getting my previous salary, and like you I worried that I would have difficulty finding a job, so I tried to walk the line. I told them I'm willing to consider lower-paying jobs, that I get I'm starting fresh, but I'd be unlikely to accept a bottom-of-the-scale job at a low-paying school. I tried to keep the conversation productive, pointing out the types of jobs on their site that I would be interested in. And I kept thanking them for doing all this work on the front-end, even though it was becoming obvious they were just trying to butter me up for a worse job. Ultimately, they shut me down. They told me, given my background, there wasn't anything for me right now unless I'm willing to take less, but that they wanted to know if they could touch base with me later in the search. I said sure, even though I again knew what that meant: they were probably trying to get rid of me in the short term, but if things didn't work out for me and they could get me on the cheap, we'd touch base again. Sounds like some relationships in my past. :) I also framed my "sure" by indicating that I'd be happy to hear from them if jobs like [I listed examples from their site] came up that they thought I might be a good fit for.

Shockingly, they wrote back a few days later. A job had just been posted that would pay well, was with a good school, and it was unusual (just like me). It involved a very specialized part-time administrative need (something I have as much experience with as anyone in IE), with other duties assigned based on skills (presumably I'd teach a few classes in my area, or they'd find something else to make me "full time." I ultimately never got to pursue that position, because I had two other offers on the table (which I got through ISS, not the other agency) and had to make a decision.

My point is that you have to crafty with some of these other agencies. Don't get pinned down by worst-case scenarios, or they'll prey on that.

3. Other posters have pointed out a lot of the ambiguity in these offers. You need to get answers about them before making a decision: what will you be teaching at School 1, what are your tax liabilities (both schools), the length of the contract (make sure that "completion bonus" isn't really just your summer pay), etc. Also, get clarity on things you didn't mention: shipping/settling in allowances, medical, professional development funds.

4. One thing that jumps out at me is the brutal schedule of School 2, even though you (perhaps fairly) note that it's "friendlier" (fewer contact hours). 7:50-4:30 is a pretty long work day for a teacher. I'm unclear if the "leave at 3:30" provision applies to 2 days each week, each semester, or each year. I had an offer from a good Chinese school and their policy was that I could take "leave" "to handle your personal matters" (come in late or leave early) twice per semester, with advance permission, as long as it didn't conflict with a scheduled class. I sort of laughed at that (not out loud), given that I come from a background in higher education where people usually don't hang out on campus all day (they're there for classes, scheduled office hours, meetings, etc., and that's it). Still, it was nice to know they officially recognized a right to come in late or leave early on occasion.

Anyway, I've ranted enough. It's good that you have offers to consider. Just make sure you aren't being exploited. Yeah, you're going to have to start low, given your background. But you still need to protect yourself.

[PsyGuy]

@GrumblesMcGee

Well the public forum used to be like that, then the ISs self trashed their own names and their lawyers came knocking and the deal worked out is the trash talk would go behind a paywall as then its not a public forum but a members only forum.

Not interested in stroking members egos.

Yes ISs state in there advertising what they want, and low tier ISs like to think they are the same as higher tier ISs, but lower tier ISs have to deal more with what they can get and less with what they want. There is an appointment for anyone if they will except anything. So yes, better and higher tier ISs have to settle less often, but the 2 years experience isnt some law written in stone and even less so the lower you go in tiers. What the LW does have going for them is a credential and some experience of which side of the classroom to stand on. Degrees mean more in tertiary education, but credentials have more utility than degrees in K12/KS education. Having a degree in X subject doesnt make you a professional edu, that would be everyone, having a professional credential makes you a professional edu, the question of whether the leadership of an IS is comfortable with the credential being the sole criteria of whether an IT is competent to teach X courses is another matter, but if only degreed ITs could teach X courses there would be a staffing crises in IE.

Its not impossible at all, option 3 the year 12 IS, assuming its SLL, in Hangzhou has the best future marketability and utility, regardless of ISs name and reputation. These are third tier ISs, they are all going to be some variation of a train wreck.

I agree, many of the job board and service agencies only want to get a warm body placed so the can get their fee, and the lower paying ISs those agencies rep comprise the largest supply of job appointments. Its worth it to them to take a small cut for a smaller fee to fill a vacancy that would otherwise languish and earn them nothing.
A fair number of those high paying vacancies they emphasize are just bait, the same with the one or to actual ISs these agencies work with, they are more advertising leaders than they are legitimate vacancies. I agree if your willing to work for 2500 thats the focus they are going to work on if they can clear some of those low paying appointments. They make it appear they are really trying to be communicative and helpful and they are really fighting for you, but as soon as the IT draws a line that they cant meet they disappear. They will always come back if your willing to take as you describe that low paying offer to get your foot in the door or some other rational.
While you never followed up with them on the new opportunity that appeared, I would also caution than agencies have used this scheme int he passed to get you interested again and get you talking with them, and then the great opportunity disappears, and they go back to their standard low paying other options.

Its a slightly longer work day for IE, but typical working days for ITs is 8-4. 7:50 is just there way of saying they dont want ITs showing up at the stroke of 8 for what would be an 8am class. Its really just saying please be here 15 minutes before classes commence. 4:30 is longer than the typical 4pm, but depending when dismissal is it could just be an extra 30 minutes in your classroom browsing the internet or marking/grading. Thees nothing inherently brutal about that.

Many ISs have a bank day, once a month for ITs to well do their banking and other things that can only be done during weekday working hours. Other ISs just schedule prep/planning periods such that you have one day a week where you have a lighter schedule that you take care of those things, usually you have to either get approval or notify/sign out when doing so.

Depending on the IS and the campus ITs dont always hang out on campus all day, it depends whats around and while its important to identify what your contact hours and what your instructional hours are, most of the time the campus is a pretty productive and nice place to spend time. Usually ISs have some policy about where and what is considered the campus and some of these campuses are large centers with shops and eateries and cafes and if they arent the IS may define the immediate area around the campus as free for faculty to visit and travel too. If an IT has a lunch prep/planning period that overlaps with lunch its usually not a big deal to leave or be off campus for the entire time. What ISs dont want is the building and campus to seem empty throughout the day.

[Heliotrope]

PsyGuy wrote:
> Not interested in stroking members egos.

What??!! You're NOT??!!
I always thought that was kind of your thing...